Easter Gift

[contentedself]

In Christianity “human sacrifice” is God’s “grace” while the same people would continue to condemn traditional religions if they employ human sacrifice.

In the same bible that Christians hold as holy we find verses denouncing human sacrifice and also denouncing parents sacrificing their children. But here we have Christians accepting and celebrating their “heavenly father” killing his “son” to neutralize sin a mysterious sin that they themselves did not commit but one attributed to Adam in the name of “original sin”. The same bible does not inform us that sin cannot be passed through from one person to another nor can it be inherited:

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinned, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

IF GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT DENOUNCES HUMAN SACRIFICE AND HE ALSO DENOUNCES PARENTS WHO SACRIFICE THEIR CHILDREN AND HE ABORTED ABRAHAM’S SLAUGHTERING OF HIS SON (SINCE IT WAS ONLY MEANT TO BE A TEST),THEN WHY DO CHRISTIANS AND THEIR NEW TESTAMENT PRESCRIBE TO GOD WHAT HE HAS REJECTED?

Deuteronomy 12:31
31Thou shall not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hates, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

From the above God considers sacrificing your children as an abomination, yet Christians ascribe that same abomination to God, sacrificing his own “son”!

Deuteronomy 18:9-12

When you enter the land that GOD, your God, is giving you, don’t take on the abominable ways of life of the nations there. Don’t you dare sacrifice your son or daughter in the fire. Don’t practice divination, sorcery, fortunetelling, witchery, casting spells, holding séances, or channeling with the dead. People who do these things are an abomination to GOD. It’s because of just such abominable practices that GOD, your God, is driving these nations out before you.

Now how dare you ascribe an abomination to God? Didn’t God see in the above that sacrificing one’s own child is an abomination?

Leviticus 18:21
"Don’t give any of your children to be burned in sacrifice to the god Molech—an act of sheer blasphemy of your God. I am GOD.

When someone sacrifices his own son, God sees it as blasphemy. Then how can you blaspheme by ascribing blasphemy to God Himself what God sees as blasphemy?

WAS JESUS A WILLING “SACRIFICE”?

Let us examine the narration of how sorrowful and freigtened Jesus was and obviously was not ready nor willing to die for your sin:

Matthew 26:36-47
36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

Compare the sorrow and fear Jesus expressed and the joy or at least readiness of soldiers who are willing to die.dont you dare come up and tell me he (Jesus) was human.i don’t even want to go into the question of whether Jesus was human or god or both.the fact is those willing to die are not gods but men.God does not die;gods die and hence they are false!if you can find men willing to die or at least willing to honor their agreement to sacrifice themselves for the truth,Jesus should no less be as strong as them.we read further:

Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Fear? Not only that he was sweating and weeping. He was sweating as if they were “great drops of blood”. Why all that? Was it because Jesus was willing to die? Or was it because he was not willing to die? Tell me!

Matthew 27:45-46
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Forsaken? The “son” is complaining to his “dad” that his “dad” had forsaken him and here you are telling me he was “willing” to die!

With all the crying and weeping of Jesus, Christians hold that Jesus was killed and therefore become “cursed” (Galatians 3:13) as a human sacrifice that “died” for their sin”. Is that how a loving God (your so called “heavenly father”) treats his beloved son? Do Christian fathers sacrifice their sons and give them up to save the wicked and those who have committed atrocities? Is it just to punish the innocent in the place of the criminal?

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Any thoughts?

 

[thirddec]

I am no scholar so I will leave it to the more scripturally aware to deal with your arguements but I will express my simple explaination.

God could not allow human sacrifice as no human could ever atone for the sins of others apart from Christ and how would that fit with THOU SHALT NOT KILL anyway as to have a human sacrifice it would have to be a pure person and not a criminal. Christ himself had to explain it to his apostles before the crucifiction and even then they didn’t fully understand until they witnessed his death and resurection. This was not like an ordinary sacrifice either; Christs whole life was a sacrifice leading up to its ultimate conclusion. It also then becomes the end of all other sacrificial killing as there is no need for any others. As far as Abraham goes God did ask Abraham to prepare his son as a sign of what the ultimate sacrifice that would be made will be but as no one but Christ would do he prevented Abraham. God himself would offer the perfect sacrifice.

Of course you also know that as Christian’s we believe Christ was truly Human and Divine so it is not incompatable that Christ being truley human suffered a multitude of tortures of the mind and spirit as he contemplated the next few days and behaved in a truley human way but then his Divine nature overcame all this and agreed to the plan of his Father.
If Christ knew all about what was going on and really wanted to escape all he had to do was leave Jerusalem as soon as he sent Judas away to betray him as he knew Judas had already decided to do it. Why wait in the Garden.

As you like the Old Testement so much

**Isaiah 53 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:

3Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth.

8He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut oh out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him.

9And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth.

10And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if ****he shall lay down his life for sin****, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

11Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, ****because he hath delivered his soul unto death****, and was reputed with the wicked: and ****he hath borne the sins of many****, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

Who would you say matches this great prophesy **

 

[contentedself]

I am no scholar so I will leave it to the more scripturally aware to deal with your arguements but I will express my simple explaination.

God could not allow human sacrifice as no human could ever atone for the sins of others apart from Christ and how would that fit with THOU SHALT NOT KILL anyway as to have a human sacrifice it would have to be a pure person and not a criminal. Christ himself had to explain it to his apostles before the crucifiction and even then they didn’t fully understand until they witnessed his death and resurection. This was not like an ordinary sacrifice either; Christs whole life was a sacrifice leading up to its ultimate conclusion. It also then becomes the end of all other sacrificial killing as there is no need for any others. As far as Abraham goes God did ask Abraham to prepare his son as a sign of what the ultimate sacrifice that would be made will be but as no one but Christ would do he prevented Abraham. God himself would offer the perfect sacrifice.

Of course you also know that as Christian’s we believe Christ was truly Human and Divine so it is not incompatable that Christ being truley human suffered a multitude of tortures of the mind and spirit as he contemplated the next few days and behaved in a truley human way but then his Divine nature overcame all this and agreed to the plan of his Father.
If Christ knew all about what was going on and really wanted to escape all he had to do was leave Jerusalem as soon as he sent Judas away to betray him as he knew Judas had already decided to do it. Why wait in the Garden.

As you like the Old Testement so much

**Isaiah 53 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:

3Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth.

8He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut oh out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him.

9And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth.

10And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if ****he shall lay down his life for sin******, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

11Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, ****because he hath delivered his soul unto death****, and was reputed with the wicked: and ****he hath borne the sins of many****, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

Who would you say matches this great prophesy

1. How can the Absolute God sacrifice anything? He is infinite and Self-sufficient.
2. How can a father sacrifice his only son for a sin committed by somebody else?
3. How can love supersede justice and mercy?
4. Why was this atonement never mentioned in any of the old scriptures? Did Abraham and David and Moses not know that Jesus will come to atone for their sins?
5. Did the prophets that came before Jesus die sinners?

 

[PatrickSebast]

This is part of the reason the trinity is an essential doctrine of the Church, God’s sacrifice was not just his son, but himself. Self sacrifice is always seen as noble.

 

[Nita]

In Christianity “human sacrifice” is God’s “grace” while the same people would continue to condemn traditional religions if they employ human sacrifice.

In the same bible that Christians hold as holy we find verses denouncing human sacrifice and also denouncing parents sacrificing their children. But here we have Christians accepting and celebrating their “heavenly father” killing his “son” to neutralize sin a mysterious sin that they themselves did not commit but one attributed to Adam in the name of “original sin”. The same bible does not inform us that sin cannot be passed through from one person to another nor can it be inherited:

The “heavenly father” never killed his “son”. Jesus was executed by Roman soldiers.

 

[thirddec]

1. How can the Absolute God sacrifice anything? He is infinite and Self-sufficient.
2. How can a father sacrifice his only son for a sin committed by somebody else?
3. How can love supersede justice and mercy?
4. Why was this atonement never mentioned in any of the old scriptures? Did Abraham and David and Moses not know that Jesus will come to atone for their sins?
5. Did the prophets that came before Jesus die sinners?

I ask you one little Question and you ignore it, WHY ?

 

[contentedself]

I ask you one little Question and you ignore it, WHY ?

If this passage gives you confidence in the most fundamental doctrine in Christianity, then there’s not much I can add, except:

It seems to me that Paul invented the story. And this is how:

Paul tells us that:
I Corinthians 15:3-4
Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Paul finds the crucifixion of Jesus in Isaiah 53 and his resurrection on the third day in Jonah 1:17, Hosea 6:2, and II Kings 20:5. Paul then tells his audience that he did not receive it from any man nor was taught it, rather he got it from Jesus (Gal 1:11-12). Another words, Paul essentially tells us that you will not find this story anywhere else because it is not being taught in schools nor do any other men know of it. Furthermore, upon careful investigation, we can see that the crucifixion/resurrection was a theme only knowledgeable to Paul and to which latter tradition developed into the four gospels, each being very different stories of what they thought Paul probably meant. But where did Paul receive the idea that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. Paul clearly tells us that it was not common knowledge of his time but rather that God gave it to him.

***Galatians 1:11-12,20
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it: rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. ***

Just how did Paul receive this revelation from Jesus Christ? Actually, while his name was still Saul and during his persecution of “Christians” whatever their beliefs may have been, Paul became transformed, he believed to carry the news of Jesus to the Gentiles (Acts 9). He began to travel and proclaim Jesus. It must be remembered that Paul never knew Jesus nor ever met him since Paul came from a Greek city (Acts 22:3). Jesus and Paul never met once while Jesus was still on earth. How did he know what he looked or acted like?

The book of Acts, which was written decades after Paul’s life, gives the following account of Paul’s conversion. The author of Acts cleverly inserts verse 15 in an effort to help explain just who Paul is; moreover, Paul never tells us in his 10 letters contained in the New Testament that this is how he discovered Jesus. The book of Acts has largely been acknowledged by scholars to be a much embellished fictional work, nevertheless this is the account of how Paul discovered the Lord!

I’m sure you know what I’m talking about, now I ask christians this:

1. How can an individual who has persecuted believers most of his life suddenly have the spiritual capacity to receive the Holy Ghost? A person butchering faithfull followers of Jesus suddenly with no preconditions is able to receive revelations?? Why him out of all the faithful christians???
2. and now can you answer the rest of my questions please?

 

[contentedself]

I ask you one little Question and you ignore it, WHY ?

Listen bro, I’m not here to have a bash at your faith or argue over what’s in your scriptures. I’m here to defend my faith from any distortion or misunderstanding. Part of that is to help you understand the bigger picture of the role religion plays in our lives, and hence to point out the contradictions and the inconsistencies in your beliefs with this bigger picture.

that’s all. peace

 

[Todd_Easton]

I don’t see it as God sacrificing His Son Jesus Christ for the sins of mankind but more as God permitting His Son to die unjustly at the hands of wicked men who were exercising their free will to do evil and God permitting His Son to use the occasion of His unjust death to freely offer up His life as a sacrifice to God to atone for the sins of mankind and God freely accepting His Son’s offering so that those who participate in His Son’s offering in baptism might receive the forgiveness of their sins.

Sometimes Sacred Scripture describes God as the cause of events which He only permits to happen.

 

[thirddec]

Listen bro, I’m not here to have a bash at your faith or argue over what’s in your scriptures. I’m here to defend my faith from any distortion or misunderstanding. Part of that is to help you understand the bigger picture of the role religion plays in our lives, and hence to point out the contradictions and the inconsistencies in your beliefs with this bigger picture.

that’s all. peace

I take what you say but you have just completely dodged the question; who do you believe that prophesy refers to surely it is not a new question to Islam. There are no inconsistencies in Christ ; his actions and his teachings but if Christ were to ask someone else to Die on the Cross instead of him that would be inconsistant with everything Christ teaches and did. I told a muslim friend before that if you want to convert Christians this should be your point of approach. He has never got near it and does the looking elsewhere for an achiles heal but my advice holds. Disprove the Crucifiction or become Christian. You will find Christ can and does still work in any Christians lives that ask him too. I don’t talk my faith ; I experience it in Christ. When I tell him of actual events I have experienced he just laughs and says do I think im a prophet. But what i’m experiencing is not unique, I recently had a chat with some of my family and they show similar patterns. One said she was loosing her faith in Religion school of all places as she was finding no solace in the constant learning of theological arguements then one day she seen some American evangelicals giving it the full nine yards and although she dissagreed with their take she did admire their zeal and she sort of jokingly ( remember many a true word is spoken in jest ) “God if only I could have just a little bit of that” from that moment on she says that her whole attitude to her faith has turned around and she now loves the Mass and Eucharistic Adoration even if she can’t reconcile completely to some aspects of the Church ( not teachings ). I would tell you what my Athiest brothers story is but thats still a work in progress , he has had one religious experience but he continues to analyse and hasn’t taken the next step but after our chat I’m guessing he will be taking the next step soon. so sorry bout rambling Back to waiting for your answer to the one question ? as its a massive prophesy I would suggest it needs a massive look at and not a dodge.

 

[thirddec]

1. How can an individual who has persecuted believers most of his life suddenly have the spiritual capacity to receive the Holy Ghost? A person butchering faithfull followers of Jesus suddenly with no preconditions is able to receive revelations?? Why him out of all the faithful christians???

Who can fathom the mind of God, but I will try to see if I can make sense of this one for you. Paul was no lukewarm person he was wholehearted in what he did. He was passionate about his persecution of the Christians and given what we have seen of him after his conversion if he had not been changed by God he would probably have ripped through the fledgling church. But God knew his heart and knew that with the truth he would be a great asset to the Church so the conversion of Paul was probably an act by God to preserve His Church in a critical phase in its developement. But God doesn’t just remove and convert all his enemies to the Church as part of human developement spiritually is through trials just as with the church. The Church was not ready for the thunderstorm Paul was bringing as it was to weak at that point so God turns Paul around.

I suppose he does something similar here in this set of clips all related

youtube.com/watch?v=fAmpibSIKVE&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=25dZmSzE4tQ&NR=1

lets see what Peter preaches.

Peter 1 : 3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Epistle of John 1 : 7

But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

your quote
But where did Paul receive the idea that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. Paul clearly tells us that it was not common knowledge of his time but rather that God gave it to him.

Here I believe you are being too literal and not seeing the whole picture ; it wasn’t common knowledge not only was it at that point fairly localised but also anyone who wasn’t Christian who heard it didn’t treat it as knowledge but as a fairy tale just as you do;
but Christ does force the truth on Paul by the vision and 3 days of blindness. Also those present heard the voice but seen no one and picked Paul up and led him to Damascus. These were anti christians also did Paul convince them too. Then the Lord provides the cure to Pauls Blindness by sending Ananias to Baptise him something Ananias would not do unless Paul knew the complete doctrine of the Church about The death and Resurection of Christ. Even if Ananias filled in the details for Paul it would not be unreasonable given the miraculas intervention of God to say it was revealed to him by God.
He may even himself have contemplated all the Christian teaching he had heard as he was persecuting them and during those days of blindness and fast have just realised it was all true and was already ready for baptism when Ananias arrived.

**The book of Acts has largely been acknowledged by scholars to be a much embellished **fictional work,

I gotta love your Hutspah on that one posted without a single reference ; I would suggest you post that one up as another thread in the scriptures forum

Wiki of course is no definative authority but in matters like this is for a non scholar like me a good starting point

The question of authorship is largely bound up with the one of the historical value of the contents. A key contested issue is the historicity of Luke’s depiction of Paul. According to the majority viewpoint, Acts describes Paul differently from how he describes himself, both factually and theologically.[10] Acts differs with Paul’s letter on important issues, such as the Law, Paul’s own apostleship, and his relation to the Jerusalem church.[11] Scholars generally prefer Paul’s account over that in Acts.[12] Representing a traditional view, however, some prominent scholars and historians view the book of Acts as being quite accurate and corroborated by archaeology, while agreeing with the Pauline epistles.[13][14]

So in my own simple way I try to answer your questions so over to you on my one question

 

[contentedself]

1. How can an individual who has persecuted believers most of his life suddenly have the spiritual capacity to receive the Holy Ghost? A person butchering faithfull followers of Jesus suddenly with no preconditions is able to receive revelations?? Why him out of all the faithful christians???

Who can fathom the mind of God, but I will try to see if I can make sense of this one for you. Paul was no lukewarm person he was wholehearted in what he did. He was passionate about his persecution of the Christians and given what we have seen of him after his conversion if he had not been changed by God he would probably have ripped through the fledgling church. But God knew his heart and knew that with the truth he would be a great asset to the Church so the conversion of Paul was probably an act by God to preserve His Church in a critical phase in its developement. But God doesn’t just remove and convert all his enemies to the Church as part of human developement spiritually is through trials just as with the church. The Church was not ready for the thunderstorm Paul was bringing as it was to weak at that point so God turns Paul around.

I suppose he does something similar here in this set of clips all related

youtube.com/watch?v=fAmpibSIKVE&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=25dZmSzE4tQ&NR=1

lets see what Peter preaches.

Peter 1 : 3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Epistle of John 1 : 7

But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

your quote
But where did Paul receive the idea that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. Paul clearly tells us that it was not common knowledge of his time but rather that God gave it to him.

Here I believe you are being too literal and not seeing the whole picture ; it wasn’t common knowledge not only was it at that point fairly localised but also anyone who wasn’t Christian who heard it didn’t treat it as knowledge but as a fairy tale just as you do;
but Christ does force the truth on Paul by the vision and 3 days of blindness. Also those present heard the voice but seen no one and picked Paul up and led him to Damascus. These were anti christians also did Paul convince them too. Then the Lord provides the cure to Pauls Blindness by sending Ananias to Baptise him something Ananias would not do unless Paul knew the complete doctrine of the Church about The death and Resurection of Christ. Even if Ananias filled in the details for Paul it would not be unreasonable given the miraculas intervention of God to say it was revealed to him by God.
He may even himself have contemplated all the Christian teaching he had heard as he was persecuting them and during those days of blindness and fast have just realised it was all true and was already ready for baptism when Ananias arrived.

**The book of Acts has largely been acknowledged by scholars to be a much embellished **fictional work,

I gotta love your Hutspah on that one posted without a single reference ; I would suggest you post that one up as another thread in the scriptures forum

Wiki of course is no definative authority but in matters like this is for a non scholar like me a good starting point

The question of authorship is largely bound up with the one of the historical value of the contents. A key contested issue is the historicity of Luke’s depiction of Paul. According to the majority viewpoint, Acts describes Paul differently from how he describes himself, both factually and theologically.[10] Acts differs with Paul’s letter on important issues, such as the Law, Paul’s own apostleship, and his relation to the Jerusalem church.[11] Scholars generally prefer Paul’s account over that in Acts.[12] Representing a traditional view, however, some prominent scholars and historians view the book of Acts as being quite accurate and corroborated by archaeology, while agreeing with the Pauline epistles.[13][14]

So in my own simple way I try to answer your questions so over to you on my one question

ok, so the OT predicted something in the NT. what does that prove to someone like me who doesn’t accept the current versions of these books as authentic?

 

[thirddec]

ok, so the OT predicted something in the NT. what does that prove to someone like me who doesn’t accept the current versions of these books as authentic?

nothing to be honest; but why don’t youin the spirit of honest scholarship look up the oldest known texts of isiaih and see what it says in that and then think a little more about when or why these books were changed if they actually were. and I dont mean changes like** I went out yesterday** changed to I went out the day before today. Changes that change a doctrine or tennent of belief.

If there is no change then a prophesy like that needs attention as its clearly from a real prophet of God. If you are Honest about your Salvation then you should be honest with your search. I will try to see where the oldest version of this is if I can; maybe some of the better scholars than I can help.

But thank you for your Honesty

 

[thirddec]

a couple to try that i just fished up from a google search

ancient-hebrew.org/31_masorite.html

hebrew-streams.org/works/qumran/isaiah-53-qumran.pdf

If these translations are from 100 years before Christ then how would they know what to change to make it fit ?

If you accept it as true ; then Isiaih has proven his prophethood again. With prophesy.

If nothing else wouldn’t this need to be taken note of and followed up more?

Would God be afraid for you to look for the Truth or would he encourage you ?

Look for the Truth