Easter Greeting From the Mormons.

[Bill_Pick]

. It is disconcerting to read the following from Orson Pratt, Mormon Apostle and scholar:

“What evidence have they…that any of the books of the New Testament are inspired by God? Can we really rely on it in its present corrupted state? Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution?”
(The Bible Alone An Insufficient Guide pp. 44-47)
If we cannot rely on the text of the Christian Bible, why are hundreds of words and phrases from it exactly reproduced in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book of any book according to Smith, and why do the LDS continue to use such a “corrupted” Bible?

. I am puzzled that the science of archaeology has been unable all these years to uncover one piece of valid evidence to prove the assertion of the Book of Mormon that a great, wide-spread Christian civilization existed in the Americas before the time of Columbus.

. I would not find it unreasonable to believe in modern-day revelation as Joseph Smith taught. What is unreasonable is that some the revelations he claimed he received from heaven contradicted what had already been revealed as true by the Christian God.

. LDS missionaries seem to deliberately blind themselves to the most obvious meaning of Bible texts. When cornered on one point they jump to another. This does not make for a reasonable discussion.

. It puzzles me that Mormon missionaries and some LDS people take offense at Christians who offer a reply to their objections to Christian doctrines. Mormon people must remember that it was their prophet from God, who made the charge that all the other Christian churches were corrupt and an abomination in the sight of God. Joseph claimed that he received this information directly from heaven by a revelation. It was Joseph then who made the first accusation, who threw the challenge to all true Christians, and many Mormons believe in that accusation today. LDS people ought not overlook the great sensitivity in the hearts of Christians to Smith’s condemnation. His challenge must be met and answered.
. Mormon people must be respected for their beliefs however unchristian these beliefs are. A real effort must be made especially in discussions to try and understand them and, above all, to love them with the love of Jesus. They have a right in conscience to believe as they do. Their religious errors we cannot accept.

 

[ricko]

Here’s a quickie answer to who is considered a Christian.

The Church considers anyone who professes a faith in Jesus Christ and has been validly baptized to be a Christian. Even immediately following the Reformation, Protestant Reformers were considered Christians, though heretics.

Since the Mormons do not have a valid baptism, on that fact alone they are not Christian.

 

[dianaiad]

Here’s a quickie answer to who is considered a Christian.

The Church considers anyone who professes a faith in Jesus Christ and has been validly baptized to be a Christian. Even immediately following the Reformation, Protestant Reformers were considered Christians, though heretics.

Since the Mormons do not have a valid baptism, on that fact alone they are not Christian.

That’s a very interesting statement.

Considering that the wording of our baptism prayer/ordinance is precisely the wording required in order for a baptism to be valid in the eyes of Catholics, would you care to tell us why you don’t consider LDS baptisms to be valid?

 

[swariffin]

An Easter greeting from the Mormons:

youtube.com/watch?v=EpFhS0dAduc

I still have no idea how people can consider Mormons to be non-christian.

Whoever wish me “Happy Easter” with sincerity, I will thank him/her greatly regardless of what he/she believes. And, I pray so God will bless him/her too whether or not he/she has the same believe as me, and whether or not he/she believes in God.

 

[Religio71]

That’s a very interesting statement.

Considering that the wording of our baptism prayer/ordinance is precisely the wording required in order for a baptism to be valid in the eyes of Catholics, would you care to tell us why you don’t consider LDS baptisms to be valid?

because of the difference in understanding of the Trinity. This is also why baptisms by Oneness Pentacostals are not accepted, because they not only baptize in Jesus’ name only, but they subscribe to modalism.

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with Swariffin. You don’t need to see eye to eye to return an Easter greeting.

This morning I had to call a cab to make it in time to Mass (I didn’t get much sleep last night…), and the 20-something cab driver remarked “Wow, everyone’s so dressed up today!” I said “Maybe everyone’s going to Mass” (sarcastically; Oregon doesn’t have a big Catholic population). He asked me if I was going to Mass and I said yes. Then he proceeded to ask me all kinds of questions about Easter, some of which I could answer, and some of which I couldn’t (“What do eggs and bunnies have to do with Jesus?”). He seemed relatively satisfied with my answers, even though he said that he doesn’t really understand religion. He said that he thought it was neat that Jesus should get “two birthdays”, though! (I guess that’s how he interpreted my explanation that Easter is the day when Jesus rose from the tomb.)

As we pulled up to my destination, I thanked him for the nice conversation and gave him a small tip. Then, as I was walking from the cab, he yelled out the window, “Hey, man! Happy Easter! Thanks!”

It’s a little thing, but it felt good to be able to talk with someone who wasn’t so jaded for once. I think he really meant the good wishes.

Happy Easter to all, by the way. He is risen/Xristos voskrese!

 

[dianaiad]

because of the difference in understanding of the Trinity. This is also why baptisms by Oneness Pentacostals are not accepted, because they not only baptize in Jesus’ name only, but they subscribe to modalism.

We do not baptize in Jesus name only. You DO realize that, right?

So let me have this straight; we aren’t Christian because we don’t have valid baptisms, and we don’t have valid baptisms because we aren’t Christian.

Oh…we aren’t modalists, by the way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We do not baptize in Jesus name only. You DO realize that, right?

So let me have this straight; we aren’t Christian because we don’t have valid baptisms, and we don’t have valid baptisms because we aren’t Christian.

It is two ways of saying the same thing. All tied to one fact. Mormons do not believe in the One True God.

Oh…we aren’t modalists, by the way.

I don’t think anyone said you were. It was a comparison to Oneness Pentecostals who also do not believe in the One True God. They happen to be modalists. Their error in belief is different than LDS. Both errors invalidate the respective baptisms.

 

[Religio71]

We do not baptize in Jesus name only. You DO realize that, right?

So let me have this straight; we aren’t Christian because we don’t have valid baptisms, and we don’t have valid baptisms because we aren’t Christian.

Oh…we aren’t modalists, by the way.

i was a former LDS, I’m well aware of your baptism and beliefs on the Godhead. My point was that, like Oneness Pentecostals (who baptize in Jesus’ name and have a modalistic view of God), we do not accept LDS baptism because of the difference in understanding who God is. This isn’t about whether you are Christian or not, but in response to your question-“would you care to tell us why you don’t consider LDS baptisms to be valid?”

 

[The_Rock]

Useful link explaining why the Catholic Church teaches that LDS do not have a valid baptism…
ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

 

[why_me]

Useful link explaining why the Catholic Church teaches that LDS do not have a valid baptism…
ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

What is interesting is that it really doesn’t matter what the catholic church thinks about the lds baptism. What matters is what god thinks. However it works quite well for me since I can do both faiths with a clear conscious since neither recognizes each other baptism.

 

[tundramom]

I have absolutely no respect for Mr. Holland. In last year’s Fall conference (I think) he gave a talk about being Christian.

I don’t think any Mormon realizes how much he mocked Christianity. The laughter from the audience about the Trinity was very telling as well.

Missionaries brought this video to my home. I sat through it politely and then asked if we could go through it and I stopped it when I wanted to point out error in what Mr. Holland was saying. At the laughter part even the missionaries and the man they brought with them appeared embarrased.

in Christ
Steph

youtube.com/watch?v=-yPQR4UlXqs

 

[dianaiad]

It is two ways of saying the same thing. All tied to one fact. Mormons do not believe in the One True God.

It is incredibly circular reasoning, Rebecca. You can’t rescue it.

I don’t think anyone said you were. It was a comparison to Oneness Pentecostals who also do not believe in the One True God. They happen to be modalists. Their error in belief is different than LDS. Both errors invalidate the respective baptisms.

 

[dianaiad]

i was a former LDS, I’m well aware of your baptism and beliefs on the Godhead. My point was that, like Oneness Pentecostals (who baptize in Jesus’ name and have a modalistic view of God), we do not accept LDS baptism because of the difference in understanding who God is. This isn’t about whether you are Christian or not, but in response to your question-“would you care to tell us why you don’t consider LDS baptisms to be valid?”

Many other denominations whose baptisms you do consider valid have very different views regarding doctrine and dogma than do the Catholics, yet you still consider them to be ‘Christian,’ and thus accept their baptisms.

But you have this list of qualifications that must be met in order to fulfill your definition of “Christian.” I believe I addressed that issue in a post that nobody has actually responded to.

Different denominations have different lists—and that’s why Catholics are on the ‘non-Christian’ side of the lists of a WHOLE bunch of Protestants.

I believe that this fact–that Catholics are considered to be non-Christian by a bunch of other Christians–is a pretty good argument against the ‘list’ approach.

Diana

 

[Religio71]

Many other denominations whose baptisms you do consider valid have very different views regarding doctrine and dogma than do the Catholics, yet you still consider them to be ‘Christian,’ and thus accept their baptisms.

But you have this list of qualifications that must be met in order to fulfill your definition of “Christian.” I believe I addressed that issue in a post that nobody has actually responded to.

Different denominations have different lists—and that’s why Catholics are on the ‘non-Christian’ side of the lists of a WHOLE bunch of Protestants.

I believe that this fact–that Catholics are considered to be non-Christian by a bunch of other Christians–is a pretty good argument against the ‘list’ approach.

Diana

are we talking about doctrine on the Trinity, because that is the whole issue about accepting or not accepting another faith’s baptism. We’re well aware that certain groups consider the Catholic Church non-Christian (the CARM forums are hilarious), however we’re talking about the nature of God and how that relates to valid baptism, which is why the Catholic Church does not accept LDS baptism.

 

[Publisher]

because of the difference in understanding of the Trinity. This is also why baptisms by Oneness Pentacostals are not accepted, because they not only baptize in Jesus’ name only, but they subscribe to modalism.

I have a question…as I understand it even an “unbeliever” or an “atheist” can baptize a person in an “emergency” and the baptism would be valid as long as the correct “formula” was used…if it’s a matter of “belief” in the correct understanding of the Trinity that makes a baptism valid…how can an “atheist” baptizing someone in an emergency be “valid” when he or she has no belief whatsoever…let alone an “incorrect” understanding of the Trinity…yet a Mormon baptism with an “incorrect” understanding of the Trinity but the “correct” formula is not valid? Makes no real sense to me…but then since Friends don’t baptize with water anyway…I guess this puts me in the same catagory as a Mormon…I’m really not a “Christian”.

 

[Religio71]

I have a question…as I understand it even an “unbeliever” or an “atheist” can baptize a person in an “emergency” and the baptism would be valid as long as the correct “formula” was used…if it’s a matter of “belief” in the correct understanding of the Trinity that makes a baptism valid…how can an “atheist” baptizing someone in an emergency be “valid” when he or she has no belief whatsoever…let alone an “incorrect” understanding of the Trinity…yet a Mormon baptism with an “incorrect” understanding of the Trinity but the “correct” formula is not valid? Makes no real sense to me…but then since Friends don’t baptize with water anyway…I guess this puts me in the same catagory as a Mormon…I’m really not a “Christian”.

From my understanding, in that situation, the intent of the baptizer will be to baptize the person into the Catholic Church, doing what the Catholic Church does when baptizing. This is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[ParkerD]

I have absolutely no respect for Mr. Holland. In last year’s Fall conference (I think) he gave a talk about being Christian.

I don’t think any Mormon realizes how much he mocked Christianity. The laughter from the audience about the Trinity was very telling as well.

Missionaries brought this video to my home. I sat through it politely and then asked if we could go through it and I stopped it when I wanted to point out error in what Mr. Holland was saying. At the laughter part even the missionaries and the man they brought with them appeared embarrased.

in Christ
Steph

youtube.com/watch?v=-yPQR4UlXqs

Steph,
I think you had good reason to be offended, and to stop and correct misconceptions. Sometimes all a person can do who has been ridiculed, belittled and scorned for so long and has held their tongue, is to laugh as a kind of release of a lot of frustration. I think that was the kind of laughter you heard–not a mocking laughter, but a collective release of frustration at having been misunderstood by so many people. (So many writers in these threads exemplify what the Mormons “hear” all the time.)

But you have been kind, thoughtful, and respectful, so I hope you will know that they were not laughing at you and your earnestly held beliefs. Remember, sometimes laughter is a cathartic release of complex sentiments. Have a great day!

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is incredibly circular reasoning, Rebecca. You can’t rescue it.

Rescue what? LDS are not Christian. You can say it however you like, as many ways as you like, it is all based on the same fact: LDS do not recognize the One True God. In fact, your leaders give sermons about how the One True God is false doctrine. You can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in the Christian God.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There are many Christian belief systems that have rules and procedures that make others uncomfortable, and that the rest of us don’t like much. It’s probably why the rest of us don’t belong to them.

Christianity is defined, and has been for 1600 years, by the Nicene Creed.