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MarcoPolo
Guest
Are there varies rites within the Eastern Orthodox Church? Also, do the language, vestments, statue arrangement, music, etc… vary from culture to culture for the EO?
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Harpazo
Guest
Glory to Jesus Christ!
In Orthodoxy, there are not really different rites per se. There are “Eastern” Orthodox, who use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or DL of St. Basil. There are “Western” Orthodox who mainly use the DL of St. Tikhon (which is an Orthodox version of a high-church Anglican liturgy) and DL of St. Gregory (which is basically the Tridentine Mass, but with an epiclesis and without the filioque in the creed).
“Western” Orthodox are those who came out of some Protestant sect or Old Catholic sect and entered into communion with Orthodoxy. They must adopt Orthodox theology, but not necessarily Byzantine Orthodox practice. That is to say, they say their own version of the Hours, have their own devotions, vestments, liturgical calendar, etc. Their vestment style might vary from parish to parish, but they generally have the same theme. Western Orthodoxy, IMO, is a good representation of what the Western Church was like before the schism. There were a wide variety of practices and liturgies in the West. For whatever reason, Rome decided to conform everyone to one style and liturgy.
To my knowledge, all Orthodox use the vernacular in their liturgies. Orthodox who are of the Byzantine variety use icons and have a distinct, yet similar architecture to those who are of the “Western” variety. A Western Orthodox parish would look similar to a pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. Some Western Orthodox make use of the rood screen, which served basically the same function as an iconostas in the East. In the East, we use icons in worship, whereas many Western Orthodox parishes (although they are few in number) use statues.
This is a good example of a typical Eastern Orthodox church:
In the East, there are variations of practice from church to church. For example, Byzantine and Slavic vestments have slight differences. Also, the manner of chanting varies. Byzantine Churches use Byzantine chant and Slavic Churches use their own system of chanting. Western Orthodox generally adopt Gregorian chant, and other pre-schism chanting systems.
Eastern Church with iconostas:
http://www.orthodoxmonastery.com/Monastery Church Iconostas.jpg WEB.jpg
Western Church with rood screen:
http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/pics/kettlebascreen.jpg
This one comes from a Western Orthodox monastery in England.
Hope that helps a little. My apologies for it being so long.
In Christ,
Andrew
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jakasaki
Guest
@ Harpazo, above, only one picture came through 
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Harpazo
Guest
Really? I can see all three. Which image is it showing for you?@ Harpazo, above, only one picture came through
In Christ,
Andrew
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Jehoshua
Guest
There are diverse practices within the Latin rite of the catholic church as well. The mozarabic rite in spain and the Ambrosian rite in Northern Italy come to mind.
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Eucharisted
Guest
Churchs and Rites: ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
Includes info on non-Catholic churches and rites.
Includes info on non-Catholic churches and rites.
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jakasaki
Guest
I cannot see the first pic and the 3rd pic. Maybe it’s my end… I’ll have to check it out…
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Hi Andrew, thanks. With some of the variations, have the Orthodox encountered any liturgical abuses you had to stomp out like we’ve had to do quite a bit here after V2?“Western” Orthodox are those who came out of some Protestant sect or Old Catholic sect and entered into communion with Orthodoxy. They must adopt Orthodox theology, but not necessarily Byzantine Orthodox practice. That is to say, they say their own version of the Hours, have their own devotions, vestments, liturgical calendar, etc. Their vestment style might vary from parish to parish, but they generally have the same theme. Western Orthodoxy, IMO, is a good representation of what the Western Church was like before the schism. There were a wide variety of practices and liturgies in the West. For whatever reason, Rome decided to conform everyone to one style and liturgy.
To my knowledge, all Orthodox use the vernacular in their liturgies. Orthodox who are of the Byzantine variety use icons and have a distinct, yet similar architecture to those who are of the “Western” variety.
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Harpazo
Guest
I don’t believe there have been any problems. The closest thing I can think of would be in some parishes of the Greek Archdiocese where parishioners kneel at the epiclesis. The canons specifically state, however, that there is to be no kneeling on Sundays because Christ is risen. Little has changed liturgically in 1700 years.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Ghosty
Guest
The Eastern Orthodox have one Rite, which was imposed by the Byzantine Empire and the very violently by the Russian Tsars; in previous centuries their Rites and sub-Rites were more diverse (the Antiochian Orthodox used to follow the Syriac Rite, like their Oriental counterparts, but this was abolished by a Byzantine Patriarch). This standardization happened over time, in some cases peacefully and in some cases violently.
The Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Armenians, Syriacs, ect) all have different Rites for the various Churches.
Peace and God bless!
The Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Armenians, Syriacs, ect) all have different Rites for the various Churches.
Peace and God bless!
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Harpazo
Guest
Forgive me if I sound obtuse, but what exactly are you trying to prove by casually mentioning this?
Yes, sadly some imposed Byzantine Christianity on others, but what fruit does this have in this discussion?In Christ,
Andrew
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Ghosty
Guest
I certain wasn’t trying to make an attack, if that’s your concern.Forgive me if I sound obtuse, but what exactly are you trying to prove by casually mentioning this?
In Christ,
Andrew
I bring it up because it’s relevant to the relative uniformity of Eastern Orthodox practice, which is the topic at hand. Obviously it’s not a current issue for the Antiochian Orthodox, but it is very much an issue between the Russian Orthodox Church and the “Old Believers” even to this day.
With that in mind, I wasn’t the one who first “casually mentioned” forced conformity in this thread, but I am the first one to mention it about the actual group being discussed, and not a group that is completely off-topic. That was actually you, in your first reply.
Peace and God bless!There were a wide variety of practices and liturgies in the West. For whatever reason, Rome decided to conform everyone to one style and liturgy.
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Harpazo
Guest
Forgive me, it seemed to me like you were.I certain wasn’t trying to make an attack, if that’s your concern.
Perhaps, but do not all Church’s have a standard? The Latins history of liturgical conformity is not roses and cream. I do not know enough about the MP and Old Believer issue to adequately comment on it. But I do not think the OP was getting at that anyway.
With that in mind, I wasn’t the one who first “casually mentioned” forced conformity in this thread, but I am the first one to mention it about the actual group being discussed, and not a group that is completely off-topic. That was actually you, in your first reply.
I’m not quite sure where you say I was talking about forced conformity. Not every Orthodox Church (autocephalous or autonomous) is exactly the same. There might be some slight variations, but I don’t think that means there is any forced conformity. It’s a very Orthodox practice to do what you were taught. The whole “don’t mess with the formula” idea.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Ghosty
Guest
Go back and read your first post; you brought up Rome forcing conformity, and this thread isn’t even about the Catholic Communion.I’m not quite sure where you say I was talking about forced conformity. Not every Orthodox Church (autocephalous or autonomous) is exactly the same. There might be some slight variations, but I don’t think that means there is any forced conformity. It’s a very Orthodox practice to do what you were taught. The whole “don’t mess with the formula” idea.
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searn77
Guest
The Eastern Orthodox actually have 2 rites as said before: eastern and western. And there are various different liturgies within both rites. But the eastern rite with the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is the most used.
Also, about the Old Believers, I’m pretty sure the Moscow Patriarch apologized for what the church did to the Old Believers in the past (I could be wrong but I don’t have time to check up on this right now). At least I know there is one Old Believer parish in Pennsylvania that is within the Orthodox Church:I certain wasn’t trying to make an attack, if that’s your concern.
I bring it up because it’s relevant to the relative uniformity of Eastern Orthodox practice, which is the topic at hand. Obviously it’s not a current issue for the Antiochian Orthodox, but it is very much an issue between the Russian Orthodox Church and the “Old Believers” even to this day.
With that in mind, I wasn’t the one who first “casually mentioned” forced conformity in this thread, but I am the first one to mention it about the actual group being discussed, and not a group that is completely off-topic. That was actually you, in your first reply.
Peace and God bless!
churchofthenativity.net/
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Ghosty
Guest
Yeah, I admittedly forgot about the Western Rite Orthodox.
Yes, there has indeed been some apologies on the part of Moscow, but the historical situation remains the same, and most Old Believers still remain seperate.
I’ll be gone for most of the day, but when I get back I’ll post the information about the old Antiochian Rite, unless you’d care to (I see you’re Antiochian Orthodox, and might be familiar with the details). The same switch of Rites affected my own Melkite Church as well, since it occured before the split between Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite.
Peace and God bless!
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dvdjs
Guest
Harpazo, evidently you know very little of the liturgical history of the Orthodox. Why don’t you then just let those who do respond?
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dzheremi
Guest
Why does every thread about Orthodoxy have to turn into a big fight?
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josie_L
Guest
Dzheremi, I think you’re being overly sensitive, noone is turning this into a big fight.
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dzheremi
Guest
Thanks for your concern, JosieL. Maybe you’re right, but from where I’m sitting it seems like it would be hard not see some replies in this thread as at least provocative, if not out and out “fightin’ words”. :slapfight:
Anyway, it seems like the original question has been answered and what is subsequent to that is more “my Church is right”, “no, MY church is right” sort of…uh…discussion. It’s just sad because in my day-to-day (i.e.,non-internet) life I’ve never seen such acrimony between the two communities, so I don’t think it really needs to be there. Everytime such a discussion goes south on this board, the part where we could be learning something kind of gets obscured, don’t you think?
Anyway, it seems like the original question has been answered and what is subsequent to that is more “my Church is right”, “no, MY church is right” sort of…uh…discussion. It’s just sad because in my day-to-day (i.e.,non-internet) life I’ve never seen such acrimony between the two communities, so I don’t think it really needs to be there. Everytime such a discussion goes south on this board, the part where we could be learning something kind of gets obscured, don’t you think?
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