Easter Vigil turned theatrical?

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michaelnrdx

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I’ve never been baptised before, but I am considering the Catholic Church. However, I have heard too many stories about Novus Ordo rites not being followed properly. I decided to go to Easter Vigil mass today at the closest Novus Ordo church to watch their baptism.

Several things I noticed…
  • The whole mass was rather theatrical. I know Easter is a time for celebration and jubilance and all, but they had dancers run up to the altar and dance around it, reenacting the events as a person was doing the Gospel reading. Does anyone else think this is inappropriate?
  • There was one person for baptism. They did the blessing of fire at the beginning of mass, then lit the Paschal candle, but strangely, they didn’t bless the baptismal water before baptizing the guy! The priest just led him in the pool, dunked him in, and then AFTERWARDS, they blessed the baptismal water (lowering the Paschal candle in, etc.) and then sprinkled the congregation. Seems backwards to me. And they didn’t pour in the oil of catuchemens or chrism in the water either–just anointed the guy afterwards.
One thing I know for sure…I am not getting my baptism here. Although I’ve seen worse!

youtube.com/watch?v=erzFkne-XQ8&feature=relmfu

When I do decide to get baptised, I’m hoping for something more like this…

youtube.com/watch?v=_1M9owPAxtk

I just feel that it should be very solemn and formal, and I do want all the exorcisms that are so often omitted in the Novus Ordo rites. Baptism is the start of one’s spiritual life. Surely, it should be paved clear from evil spirits?
 
michaelnrdx said:
Several things I noticed…
  • The whole mass was rather theatrical. I know Easter is a time for celebration and jubilance and all, but they had dancers run up to the altar and dance around it, reenacting the events as a person was doing the Gospel reading.** Does anyone else think this is inappropriate?**
  • There was one person for baptism. They did the blessing of fire at the beginning of mass, then lit the Paschal candle, but strangely, they didn’t bless the baptismal water before baptizing the guy! The priest just led him in the pool, dunked him in, and then AFTERWARDS, they blessed the baptismal water (lowering the Paschal candle in, etc.) and then sprinkled the congregation. Seems backwards to me. And they didn’t pour in the oil of catuchemens or chrism in the water either–just anointed the guy afterwards.
One thing I know for sure…I am not getting my baptism here. Although I’ve seen worse!
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There are going to be a few that feel it is very inapropriate and I am one with them. This is my opinion, however, there are some out there that prefer it… obviously, but I still don’t care for it.

I share your sentiment. I think you’ll find a few that agree with you.
Visit another parish. 🙂

God Bless you and have a Blessed Easter!! 🙂
 
The exorcisms are done in the scrutinies throughout Lent.

The oils are NOT blessed by the priest with holy water. They were blessed by the bishop at the chrism mass and each parish gets a share of that.
 
Yes, I went to a Chrism mass and watched the bishop and all the priests of the diocese bless the oils. It was a very impressive ceremony.

What I meant was that, in the 1962 Roman Ritual, the confection of baptismal water involved adding the oil of catuchemens and the chrism to the water.
 
At our parish, the baptismal water is blessed during the Mass, and before the baptisms, but no oils are added. The oil of catachumens was used prior to the Mass, and the catachumens were annointed on the breastbone with it - at our parish it was done as the catachumens and their sponsors and the RCIA team were gathering together in a separate room before the vigil began. Then the chrism I believe is applied to the forehead at confirmation, after the baptisms (and also for those that are only being confirmed).

The exorcisms are done during the scrutinies which if I remember correctly are the 3rd, 4th and 5th Sundays of Lent. Unless you mean the baptismal promises, like the “do you reject Satan and all his works…” and so on. I would think they couldn’t omit that from the rite.

Liturgical dance…well, I won’t go there. To each their own on that one, but not my cup of tea.

I would agree, try another parish. We use the Novus Ordo rites at our parish, and I have never once seen any of the horror stories I’ve read on these boards, so there are bound to be others as well.
 
michaelnrdx said:
Yes, I went to a Chrism mass and watched the bishop and all the priests of the diocese bless the oils. It was a very impressive ceremony.

What I meant was that, in the 1962 Roman Ritual, the confection of baptismal water involved adding the oil of catuchemens and the chrism to the water.
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The oils are not added to the Holy Water anymore. The oils are always supposed to be used separate from the Baptismal water. As for the blessing of the New Easter Water, the Easter Candle isn’t what makes the water holy and shouldn’t really be “dunked” into the water. The Priest should bless the water, then use it to sprinkle the congregation. The Baptisms come later.

Also, it is very inappropriate to have “dancers” at the altar and in the Santuary during the gospel. That is something Evangelical or Fundamental churches delight in. It’s for those Catholic who want to be more like Protestants in my opinion. If you go to a more traditional Catholic Easter Vigil you will see and extremely beautiful and meaningful liturgy. We had 4 people come into the Church tonight and I, for one, am thrilled.
 
michaelnrdx said:
I’ve never been baptised before, but I am considering the Catholic Church. However, I have heard too many stories about Novus Ordo rites not being followed properly. I decided to go to Easter Vigil mass today at the closest Novus Ordo church to watch their baptism.

Several things I noticed…
  • The whole mass was rather theatrical. I know Easter is a time for celebration and jubilance and all, but they had dancers run up to the altar and dance around it, reenacting the events as a person was doing the Gospel reading. Does anyone else think this is inappropriate?
  • There was one person for baptism. They did the blessing of fire at the beginning of mass, then lit the Paschal candle, but strangely, they didn’t bless the baptismal water before baptizing the guy! The priest just led him in the pool, dunked him in, and then AFTERWARDS, they blessed the baptismal water (lowering the Paschal candle in, etc.) and then sprinkled the congregation. Seems backwards to me. And they didn’t pour in the oil of catuchemens or chrism in the water either–just anointed the guy afterwards.
One thing I know for sure…I am not getting my baptism here. Although I’ve seen worse!

youtube.com/watch?v=erzFkne-XQ8&feature=relmfu

When I do decide to get baptised, I’m hoping for something more like this…

youtube.com/watch?v=_1M9owPAxtk

I just feel that it should be very solemn and formal, and I do want all the exorcisms that are so often omitted in the Novus Ordo rites. Baptism is the start of one’s spiritual life. Surely, it should be paved clear from evil spirits?
Click to expand...
Rest assured the Mass you attended was not supposed to include dancing. OR re-enacting. There is a time a place for theatre, and it is NOT during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I know you said you’re not baptised, but I would definitely have a chat with the Priest about this, or maybe ask the Priest who is in charge of the dancing and reenacting, because sometimes committees are set up behind the Priests back. Perhaps the Priest never knew this would happen?

But either way, it shouldn’t have happened. It never should happen. I wouldn’t let it turn you against the OF, but if you rather the TLM, GO for it! 🙂
 
puppypatrol said:
As for the blessing of the New Easter Water, the Easter Candle isn’t what makes the water holy and shouldn’t really be “dunked” into the water.
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Why do you say the candle should not be lowered into the water?

tee
 
puppypatrol said:
The oils are not added to the Holy Water anymore. The oils are always supposed to be used separate from the Baptismal water. As for the blessing of the New Easter Water, the Easter Candle isn’t what makes the water holy and shouldn’t really be “dunked” into the water. The Priest should bless the water, then use it to sprinkle the congregation. The Baptisms come later.
Click to expand...
No, the water is blessed, the catechumen are baptized and then we have the sprinkling rite after which the newly baptized and those being received into full communion are confirmed.
 
The candle should still be lowered into the water. This is part of the Liturgy.
 
The candle should be lowered into the water; at least up here in Canada as part of our liturgy. However, it isn’t the candle that blesses the holy water, the candle imparts a more special blessing upon it. The water has been blessed already beforehand (at least in our parish).

Either way, so long as the priest pours water or wets the head of the catecumen and says “I baptize you (name) in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirity” then it is a valid baptism.

It is possible, as in our parish, that the candidates for baptism received the oil of catecumens eariler in the holy week.
 
So that first baby that was baptized in that video…she wasn’t validly baptized. In order for baptism to be valid, the water MUST touch the person’s head.

Aside from that, that baptism was pretty mild compared to many I’ve been to.
 
puppypatrol said:
As for the blessing of the New Easter Water, the Easter Candle isn’t what makes the water holy and shouldn’t really be “dunked” into the water. The Priest should bless the water, then use it to sprinkle the congregation. The Baptisms come later.

COLOR]

According to the rubrics, the candle is placed into the water at a specific time during the blessing of the water when the Holy Spirit is called down. It also can be dipped three times as an option. The baptisms come next, then Confirmation (after the robing with the white garment and them given their baptismal candle) then, after renewing their vows, the assembly is sprinkled.
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Phemie said:
No, the water is blessed, the catechumen are baptized and then we have the sprinkling rite after which the newly baptized and those being received into full communion are confirmed.
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Sorry, but you are all wrong. In the Roman Catholic Church, the Easter Candle is lit from the new Easter Fire and blessed in the rear of the church. If you watched the Mass at St. Peter’s in Rome, that is how Pope Benedict did it as well.

If you are not talking about the Roman Rite, then OK but if you are, you may want to recheck current resources. They haven’t put the Easter Candle in the Holy Water in decades.
 
puppypatrol said:
Sorry, but you are all wrong. In the Roman Catholic Church, the Easter Candle is lit from the new Easter Fire and blessed in the rear of the church. If you watched the Mass at St. Peter’s in Rome, that is how Pope Benedict did it as well.

If you are not talking about the Roman Rite, then OK but if you are, you may want to recheck current resources. They haven’t put the Easter Candle in the Holy Water in decades.
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What you quoted from my post referred to the position of the sprinkling rite within the Vigil in relation to the baptism of the catechumens.

As for dipping the candle in the water, that’s not to bless the candle. You’re right that the candle is blessed, inscribed and incense is inserted before it’s lit from the new fire and that’s done at the back of the church or outside. But when the water is blessed, AFAIK, dipping the candle in it is still required, the triple dip is an option. Our Pastor did that every year.
 
The blessing of the “paschal candle”, which is a column of wax of exceptional size, usually fixed in a great candlestick specially destined for that purpose, is a notable feature of the service on Holy Saturday. The blessing is performed by the deacon, wearing a white dalmatic. A long Eucharistic prayer, the “Præconium paschali” or “Exultet”, is chanted by him, and in the course of this chanting the candle is first ornamented with five grains of incense and then lighted with the newly blessed fire. **At a later stage in the service, during the blessing of the font, the same candle is plunged three times into the water with the words: Descendat in hanc plenitudinem fontis virtus Spiritus Sancti" **(May the power of the Holy Spirit come down into the fulness of this fountain). From Holy Saturday until Ascension Day the paschal candle is left with its candlestick in the sanctuary, standing upon the Gospel side of the altar, and it is lighted during high Mass and solemn Vespers on Sundays. It is extinguished after the Gospel on Ascension Day and is then removed.

newadvent.org/cathen/11515b.htm
 
That dates back to 1913, the Rite has changed quite a bit since then. The candle (it is as described there) is prepared and blessed by the priest and then lit from the new fire and processed into the church. Only after it’s been installed in the sanctuary is the Exsultet! sung.
 
puppypatrol said:
Sorry, but you are all wrong. In the Roman Catholic Church, the Easter Candle is lit from the new Easter Fire and blessed in the rear of the church. If you watched the Mass at St. Peter’s in Rome, that is how Pope Benedict did it as well.
Click to expand...
…And then the deacon processed the candle into the basilica. And when his holiness was blessing the water, the deacon immersed the candle into the font.

You can see it at ~02:08:00 of this video player.rv.va/vaticanplayer.asp?language=it&tic=VA_KTPAA4EK
puppypatrol said:
They haven’t put the Easter Candle in the Holy Water in decades.
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Of course they have. What makes you say otherwise?

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
…And then the deacon processed the candle into the basilica. And when his holiness was blessing the water, the deacon immersed the candle into the font.
You can see it at ~02:08:00 of this video player.rv.va/vaticanplayer.asp?language=it&tic=VA_KTPAA4EK
Of course they have. What makes you say otherwise?
tee
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I stand corrected. I did some further checking and found that the Easter candle is dipped into the holy water ONLY when there are going to be baptisms at the Easter Vigil. Converts who were already Baptised, even in protestant churches, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit don’t need to be re-baptised so the occasion for this is extremely rare in the US…

Thank you for giving me reason for additional research. Learning something new is NEVER a bad thing.
 
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