Eastern Cath views/feelings about Novus Ordo

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James924 said:
No grain of salt necessary. Everything you have said is completely true and catholic in my opinion and as a traditionalist I agree with you.

The reason I asked is because I was listening to a talk by Michael Davies about the reform of the Latin liturgy and he made a point that while liberals took every effort to Protestantize the mass in hopes of drawing Protestants closer into communion (which hasn’t worked) it actually almost destroyed the likelihood of communion with the Eastern Orthodox churches with whom, prior to this, there had at least been an actual real chance of communion in the future. At one point he quoted an Orthodox person after mass having said “there’s no way anyone in there believed in the real presence.”. I was curious if such sentiment was the case.

As to your question of who concocted this protestantization:

“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants.”* - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965
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Excellent sir!

Unfortunately, clergy and bishops don’t usually take socio-cultural studies and have a poor understanding of human psychology as a result. Protestants who do become Catholic tend to “swim the Tiber” because of the beauty of the Catholic liturgies (which is also why we Easterns, as Marybeloved would call us 😉 , find westerners knocking on our church doors to get in).

Sorry, but that Archbishop and his team had no idea what they were doing to the Church. When I attended my RC college, priests and nuns told me things like “we need to pray less,” and were very “anti-Rosary” and were against other traditional devotions.

If Rome could try and wipe hundreds of years of the traditional Roman Mass away with the Novus Ordo, it should be a no-brainer to wipe about fifty years of the Novus Ordo rite and say, “Sorry, Mea Culpa!”

Pun intended.

Alex
 
Firstly, I would like to ask everyone to use the proper terminology. Our Holy Father has designated the mass of Paul VI as the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the “pre-Vatican II” Tridentine mass as the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

As a Latin, who is well aware of the liturgical problems facing many parishes in the Latin Church today, I implore my Eastern brothers to keep in mind that there is a great distinction between how Holy Mother Church intends the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) of the Roman Rite to be celebrated and how it actually is celebrated in many parishes…

I have attended beautiful masses celebrated according to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (TLM). I have attended breath taking Byzantine rite divine liturgies. …but the most beautiful and awe inspiring eucharistic liturgies I have attended in my entire life were celebrated according to the Ordinary Form by the Holy Father in Rome. Chant, incense, breath-takin polyphonic choirs, Latin…this is all part of the Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo as the Council Fathers intended! In my personal experience, there is a slow shift back to more traditional expressions of worship in the Latin Church…what the Holy Father has termed the “reform of the reform”. In my own archdiocese, there are several parishes which worship according to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite where the faithful receive Our Lord kneeling at the altar rail, incense is used every Sunday, and Latin (or at least reverent English) chant/polyphony is the norm.

Not all Ordinary Form masses are “guitar” masses! Some dioceses are “worse” than others… but I truly believe that we are beginning to see a shift… and younger Latin priests tend to be much more dedicated to traditional orthopraxy than their forefathers of the 1960s and 70s.

An Ordinary Form mass celebrated correctly is actually more Eastern, in my opinion, than the Tridentine Extraordinary Form in several ways:

-Explicit epiclesis
-Multiple anaphorae
-Required active participation from the laity at all masses

I also personally appreciate the wider inclusion of Old Testament readings. In Rome, from what I observed, the norm for Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo masses is as follows:
-Readings in the vernacular
-Prayers (proper and ordinary) chanted/read in Latin
-incense
-polyphony/organ for solemn masses

For the Latin Church, Rome sets the standard for the whole world… so that should tell you something. It should also be noted that ad orientem is an option in the Ordinary Form and I’ve seen it done.
 
OrthodoxJosh said:
I would love to attend an EF mass. I’ve seen them on EWTN and it seems very beautiful, and not so foreign from the DL. Just my opinion.
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I’ve never seen the EF of the Mass on EWTN. The daily Mass they broadcast is OF of the Mass with the Propers in Latin. They also broadcast Adoration. I’ve often heard “traditionalists” often bemoan the lack of the EF on EWTN.
 
5Loaves said:
I’ve never seen the EF of the Mass on EWTN. The daily Mass they broadcast is OF of the Mass with the Propers in Latin. They also broadcast Adoration. I’ve often heard “traditionalists” often bemoan the lack of the EF on EWTN.
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This is correct and a good point (although I do know of at least one instance of an EF on EWTN, probably due to the media attention to our Holy Father’s motu proprio in 2007) its important to remember that the OF (aka NO) can be said in Latin and that they are still two different liturgies (the OF and the EF I mean). A traditionalist who is a TLM traditionalist because of the actual content of the mass (prayers, symbolism, etc) will usually choose to attend the EF in english (if it existed) rather than the OF in Latin because its not a language issue, but rather a prayers and content issue.

Even if there was an OF down the street from me that not only was in Latin, but also did away with all of the extra optional anthropocentric stuff like facing the people or the sign of peace or the placing of the choir facing the people, or communion in the hand, standing, extraordinary ministers, calvinist hymns, etc etc etc, even if such a mass existed down the street, I would still prefer to go to an EF in any language, english or swahili, because of the actual prayers said during the mass. The amount of references to sacrifice and our own sins and the emphasis on the priests role as intercessor on our behalf as opposed to just one of us that was almost all removed in the OF is what makes me prefer not to attend it if I have the option of attending an EF instead.

That said, the above mentioned theoretical theocentric OF in latin would certainly be nice if it existed somewhere, I’m not saying I’d have no appreciation for it.
 
I’m very often in the OF of the Latin Rite for daily Mass. I’m heading in a few minutes to a very reverent but still very personal Mass with the Dominicans, followed by Vespers at Russian Orthodox for the Nativity Fast. Today being Monday they will celebrate in Spanish except for the homily. Some days they do the propers in Latin. Otherwise it’s typically all in English.

Sometimes I want to run out of a daily Mass screaming and 99% of the time that is due to the choice of music, not referring to Mass at the Dominican Priory but in various parishes.

I’m grateful for the OF’s use of the three year cycle which means if one assists at daily Mass or just reads the readings for daily Mass, as well as Sunday Mass one is exposed to a very substantial portion of Holy Scripture over the three year cycle. I appreciate in the OF the inclusion of four readings from Scripture in every Sunday Mass and three in daily Mass-- normally two from the Old Testament, one of those being from Psalms, and an epistle and a Gospel reading. The greater use of Holy Scripture as compared to the EF I very much like.

We began last week celebrating daily Mass in my Latin parish using the new translation. I wanted to jump for joy as Father was praying his parts. 😃 The language, at least in the parts our priest has chosen to use himself, is much richer. The Catholic SF last week had a little Revised missal: More answers to common questions which noted there is one change in the gestures of the Mass.
One new change in sync with the revised translation is the practice of striking the breast with a closed fist three times while saying, “Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.” This practice has been reinstated and many people will begin performing it during the confiteor. As with all Mass parts, this transition to the new missal is a great time to reacquaint yourself with the liturgy and what it means to you.
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I will happily be Latinized for this gesture. 🙂
 
I’ve been to the OF of the mass several times, and the EF of the mass once. Despite using contemporary music, I wouldn’t say that the post Vatican II mass was absolutely horrible. The addition of an epiclesis is definitely a good thing, and the use of the vernacular is definitely much better. What I disliked was that it seems as if the rubrics are timed poorly, which led to the priest sitting down and basically twiddling his thumbs during some hymns. That to me was absolutely unacceptable (certainly did not see that during the EF of the mass). Another thing that I disliked was that the hymns could be pretty vapid feelgood type music instead of music intended to glorify God or to teach us about Him. That being said, I’ve heard that the OF of the mass can be quite reverent when done correctly (smells and bells with some gregorian chant).

I honestly think that most people (Catholic and Orthodox alike) make too big of a deal out of the OF, and don’t focus their attention enough on the liturgical abuses which make it seem irreverent.
 
I usually attend the NO in English, nothing else is available for 100s of miles. But I have been know to attend Orthodox DL as well.

And I prefer the DL even in english. The language is so much more reverent. No guitars and no calling God “you”. It’s like the DR bible, much better to me than the “me and my good buddy Jesus” of the NO.

The new missal will be better, but it still calls God you.
 
Well many said they felt more conformable with the EF instead of the OF… I just love the orthodox… we share the same feeling 🙂
 
Formosus said:
They have rubrics for every minor detail and it makes the liturgy feel less organic and more like a white washed classical statue.
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Ever hear of nonverbal prayers, including using low-tone for many of the verbal prayers? Seems like the modernists now believe God is hard of hearing.
 
5Loaves said:
I’ve never seen the EF of the Mass on EWTN. The daily Mass they broadcast is OF of the Mass with the Propers in Latin. They also broadcast Adoration. I’ve often heard “traditionalists” often bemoan the lack of the EF on EWTN.
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I could be totally wrong. It seems though that the instance I am remembering they actually said it was a Tridentine Latin Mass. Then again, I’m not Roman Catholic so a highly traditionalized OF Mass could seem the same to me. I have to agree with others here that a well done OF Mass can be very beautiful. My comment on the Novus Ordo being unreverent was aimed at what I’ve experienced in person.
 
andrewstx said:
The new missal will be better…
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In what ways? Because it adds more syllables to the words and increases the English fog index? It’s still English, not exactly considered to be a Catholic language.
 
ProVobis said:
Ever hear of nonverbal prayers, including using low-tone for many of the verbal prayers? Seems like the modernists now believe God is hard of hearing.
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How about “when you sing you pray twice”? We have quiet prayers in the East as well, but the notion that the whole Liturgy should be a quiet rustle and shuffle of the priest is very foreign to us, and honestly I’d put it close to being a Liturgical abuse.

I agree with twf, at its heart and done properly the OF is much more “Eastern” than the EF. Since I’m most comfortable with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom I prefer the reverent OF to an EF, at least a Low Mass EF.

Peace and God bless!
 
I respect it;it was a move in the right direction by the Roman Rite: a move to better educate the faithful within the liturgy.

It does not, however, meet my needs long term, as they symbolism of the west doesn’t resonate with me. It doesn’t make it as easy for me to open myself to the grace proffered through the sacrifice, because the symbolism has not resonated with me.

Then again, the OF is done well 'round here. I’ve not encountered the abuses that many have down south.

As for the EF: I find it even less edifying than the OF. If I’d been raised under the Trent missal, I’d have fled even faster.
 
Cavaradossi said:
I’ve been to the OF of the mass several times, and the EF of the mass once. Despite using contemporary music, I wouldn’t say that the post Vatican II mass was absolutely horrible. The addition of an epiclesis is definitely a good thing
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Can you please go a little more into the epiclesis or lack thereof?
 
I grew up in the Latin Rite, but did a canonical change of rite in 2006. My preference is for the DL, but that is based on its content, not that of the NO.

I have been too novus ordo’s that are done in the way Mass was meant to be done. One was a wedding in VA, I do not recall the parish. The best that I have heard of is Holy Rosary in Portland, OR. The next time I visit my friends there I may actually insist on going there once on the trip.

Some other friends I have now who converted into the faith at that parish thought all Catholic Churches were like that. As they moved east, they learned that Mass can be done badly.

So my point is, the NO is fine, although, perhaps it was not the wisest way to bring about liturgical reform. Where it is done well, it is as fulfilling as any other liturgy. Sadly it is usually mediocre and I do avoid it where I can if I know that it will not be what it should be.
 
ProVobis said:
It appears that there are no Polish Orthodox parishes in the U.S. Not much choice for them except for the Polish OF.
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We had a mission for Poles attached to an OCA parish in Illinois. I spoke to the priest about it, and I was somewhat interested because of my Polish background. I did not want to become a regular, I was just curious …

Interestingly, the community had asked father to start mixing English into the liturgy! They wanted to assimilate, the general feeling being that it would be good for the youngsters.

Not that I disagree, but I was a bit surprised.
 
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