Eastern Catholic and Orthodoxy

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Ultramontanism is not a heresy, nor is it related to the Montanist heresy in any way to my knowledge.

An ultramontanists is simply someone who emphasizes the absolute powers of the Papacy.

Salaam.
 
Ultramontanism is not a heresy, nor is it related to the Montanist heresy in any way to my knowledge.

An ultramontanists is simply someone who emphasizes the absolute powers of the Papacy.

Salaam.
I was focusing on the root of the word, not understanding that there was another term, which meant something different. (I like to know what they are, when I’ve been referred to as ‘something’ or other).

But I’ve discovered that, your useage of the term, is also meant as disparaging. In fact, the term is sometimes used (I’ve found out), usually by non-Catholic controversialists, to describe a real or *supposed exaggeration *of papal prerogatives and those who supported them.

If by ‘absolute’ you somehow indicate that I think that he is infallible, outside or beyond ex Cathedra, you’d be wrong. However, if you mean that I recognize his supremacy, as the leader of the Catholic Church (and all those Churches which are part of that unity), then you’d be correct.

You had written of your ‘not speaking for your parish’, and I’d hope that to be the case. Whether or not ‘some agree with you’, holds no weight when it comes to what is actually taught and required to believe. And you don’t adhere to the Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which recognizes Papal supremacy.
 
If anyone is interested:

“Ultramontanist” simply means “over the mountains” - i.e., the Alps in relation to France. Thus, it refers to Italy, specifcally to Rome. It was originally used to distinguish the Gallicans from the supporters of the Papacy.

During the Vatican Council, there were moderate Ultramontanists, who sometimes sided with the Minority party, and hardline Ultramontanists.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Byzgirl,

I certainly don’t speak for anyone but myself, and I often do that quite poorly. 😉

Part of why I suggested moving the discussion of the Papacy to another thread was because I thought Marduk had a very intelligent interpretation of the “supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise” mentioned in the canons. That discussion can be found here and is again discussed with respect to the head bishop here. As I mention in the second of the linked threads, I don’t understand the position I hold to contradict the relevant canons.

I know that you are trying to faithfully understand and interpret that which we have received. I hope you understand that I am attempting to do the same. If indeed the Divine Liturgy is the first theology, then yesterday you and I participated in nearly identical primary theological life and confession; thanks be to God. Disagreement (which it is clear we have) is not meant as disrespect and I apologize if I have offended you.

Salaam al-Maseeh.
 
Byzgirl:

You come across as quite über-papist and highly latinized. The combination is highly like the few Montanists of VII from the Eastern Churches.

The Montanists specifically are the party that felt infallibility had been TOO WEAKLY defined. They wanted a stronger Papacy.

Me, I almost went OCA-RO, but that appointment in Jn21 kept me from leaving the CC. I see the Petrine Ministry as fundamental to the Church. I doubt we agree on the role of the Pope.

You are towards one end of the spectrum; I’m towards the other, based upon your posts.

Heck, my RO friends can’t understand why I’m NOT RO…
 
You come across as quite über-papist and highly latinized. The combination is highly like the few Montanists of VII from the Eastern Churches.

The Montanists specifically are the party that felt infallibility had been TOO WEAKLY defined. They wanted a stronger Papacy.
I understood what you meant in your post, but I just wanted to clarify…ultramontanism (literally ‘beyond the mountains’, as Marduk pointed out) is something entirely different from Montanism, and the two are not related.

Montanism is a heresy from the period of the early church. Its name come from Montanus, its founder. It centered on issues of inspiration, the Holy Spirit and prophetic ministry. Its most famous adherent is probably Tertullian, who embraced the movement in his later works.

Ultramontanism is a term for those who emphasize papal authority and power.

salaam.
 
I recently returned from a pilgrimage to Israel with a Byzantine and Roman Catholic priest. After visiting the Byzantine parish, I want to learn more about the practices of this Rite. The more I read and study the more confused I seem to become. If anyone can point me to information about Byzantine Catholicism as it relates to the Orthodox, I would appreciate it.

Diana
Westminster CO
 
I recently returned from a pilgrimage to Israel with a Byzantine and Roman Catholic priest. After visiting the Byzantine parish, I want to learn more about the practices of this Rite. The more I read and study the more confused I seem to become. If anyone can point me to information about Byzantine Catholicism as it relates to the Orthodox, I would appreciate it.

Diana
Westminster CO
I suggest you check out the Byzantine Forum.

Plenty of knowledgeable and decent folks there to answer your questions.

Michael
 
I recently returned from a pilgrimage to Israel with a Byzantine and Roman Catholic priest. After visiting the Byzantine parish, I want to learn more about the practices of this Rite. The more I read and study the more confused I seem to become. If anyone can point me to information about Byzantine Catholicism as it relates to the Orthodox, I would appreciate it.

Diana
Westminster CO
There is a Divine Liturgy in Denver on Sundays at Holy Protection parish. It is a Byzantine Catholic parish. See here for more details.
 
"Each Patriarch is almost like a mini pope, holding virtually total authority over his respective church.
As others have pointed out by now, this is incorrect.
I have not met an Orthodox who does not hold the Catholic Church to be apostolic and therefore authentic.
Ugh, that’s a big can of worms. Suffice it to say, this apologist has obviously never picked the mind of an Athonite monk as to what he thinks of “ecumenism.”
It is most important to bring into a discussion with regards to Peter’s unique authority. They may counter you and point to Mt 18, where Jesus gives all the Apostles the power to bind and loose, but drawing the distinction between the two events is critical. In Mt 16, Peter alone is given the keys, a symbol drawn directly from Isaiah 22, where Shebna was removed as Master of the Palace and the keys were given to Elikiah, and to his descendants for all posterity. Compare the language of the two instances and you will see how Jesus modeled his own handing on of the keys after this very incident.
I’d like to know the roots of this exegesis - which of the Fathers is it drawn from?

In his first and second homilies on the Gospel of St.John, St.John Chrysostom is pretty clear that he understood the “keys” to be the same as the power of “binding and loosening”, and that he understood St.John the Apostle (at least) as also standing “upon the Rock”, alluding to the imagery of the 16th chapter of St.Matthew’s Gospel.

What St.Peter is, is “the first” as the Scriptures themselves call him. Neither he nor the rest of the Apostles actually received the gifts promised to them at the time of the promise. So the significance is, that St.Peter was the first of the Apostles to be promised the Priesthood. He would also be the first to preach the Gospel. He is the “type” of the Priesthood in general, and that is generally the tone one will see in the treatments of St.Peter.

Often through simple assumption, things are read into these Patristic teachings on the person and significance of St.Peter which are not in the documents themselves. All praise of St.Peter becomes something to be weighed in terms of “power”, and then for whatever reason applied uniquely to the Bishop of Rome. This of course completely ignores the startling fact that it was not St.Peter who presided over the ancient Apostolic Council of Jerusalem, but St.James the Brother-of-the-Lord. It was he who issued the sentence and formula on behalf of the assembled Apostles, Hierarchs, and Clergy. Interestingly, what influence St.Peter had was charismatic, not as one “Lording it over” another - as our Lord says, it is the Heathens who seek this kind of thing, it’s not of the Gospel (even if sinful Christians so often do such things anyway.) The model presented by Christ for the Apostles, and in turn for their successors (the Bishops) is fraternal. Bishops are not as Presbyters to other Bishops, or a singular “super Bishop” of some kind. Even St.James’ is not presumptuous while presiding over that primitive Council - he writes in the name of those assembled, declaring “it is good to us and the Holy Spirit…”
We hold that the Papacy is the critical seat of unity for the Church that Christ built (he only built one) and therefore the Orthodox are the scismatics. The day we work out this issue we will likely restore the unity that Christ desired for His Church. Our present Pope has made it a priority for his papacy, to unify the “lungs” of the Body of Christ."
This notion of the Papacy you present simply isn’t the one that was accepted throughout Christendom - it was very provincial, and shows a very clear pattern of evolution…development to the point that the end product would be utterly unrecognizable to all of it’s early ancestors. The Orthodox cannot accept this, or any of the other innovations distinctive of Catholicism, whether in liturgical matters or in matters of doctrine. This is the source of division between Rome and it’s followers and the Orthodox Church of Christ. Since the 11th century, unfortunately, the differences have multiplied, with Rome in all cases being the agent of change.
 
Rome has a separate set of laws for the Roman Church, the CIC. The intratext for that is available at vatican.va in both latin and english. The CCEO on the Vatican website is latin only, which is why I referred to the intratext site, since it is obvious you read English.

The Latin Rite has but one church, the Roman Church.

Seriously, tho’ your terminology sounds likeit is that of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. Using the outdated terminology obfuscates your message needlessly, and can be confusing to those unfamiliar with it.

Also note: Each of the 22 Eastern Churches in union has the option of additional canon laws. The Ruthenian (ByzCath Met. of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris, one of those 22 churches) canon law is posted at Byzcath.org IIRC.
I think that Amado made an important correction, and “do not have the option of additional canon laws.”

"The CCEO is the only code of canons (which are Church laws governing the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome) for all the Eastern Catholic Churches."

"What is meant by Aramis is that each Eastern Catholic Church has the power to adopt “norms” for the implementation of the Eastern Code of Canons and which apply to her particular case. They are in the nature of rules and regulations governing a particular Eastern Catholic Church."

"Thus, the BCC adopted her own “Norms” (“THE NORMS OF PARTICULAR LAW OF THE BYZANTINE METROPOLITAN CHURCH SURI IURIS OF PITTSBURGH, U.S.A.”) and were approved by Rome for implementation in 1999. The “canons” cited in the BCC “Norms” are specific canons in the CCEO, not “additionally” legislated by the BCC."


I appreciate the information/correction from Amado, in response to Aramis.

Despite the slight variation in code of canon law norms (not additional) these Churches (though separate from the Roman Church and it’s Latin Rite), are most assuredly united with the ‘Papacy’, which is what makes them (my Byzantine Church included) ‘Catholic’ with a big C.

For me, if that bond was ever broken with the Papacy, I would be a member of the ‘Roman’ Catholic Church.

In addition, the problem with always referring to the ‘Latin Rite’ of the Church, as Roman, has become a source of derogatory language. As a amateur apologist (very amateur), I have encountered and read many dialogues with anti-Catholic (Protestants) in which the term ‘Roman’ is used in a negative sense and as indicative as ‘bondage’ or some other nonsense. That is why, even though I am a Byzantine Catholic, I always refer to myself as ‘Catholic’. I have always understood this to include all of the ‘Eastern Churches’, and the ‘Roman’ Church. I prefer to use the term ‘rites’, although I understand that this term is not satisfactory for some (seeming to narrow down the Eastern Churches to ‘rubrics’/customs only–thought certainly not the case)–but, the alternative 'calling the Latin Rite of the Church, ‘Roman’, seems to try and narrow Catholicism…which, in reality, can’t be done when looking at the big picture of Church with a big C.
 
As others have pointed out by now, this is incorrect.

Ugh, that’s a big can of worms. Suffice it to say, this apologist has obviously never picked the mind of an Athonite monk as to what he thinks of “ecumenism.”

I’d like to know the roots of this exegesis - which of the Fathers is it drawn from?

In his first and second homilies on the Gospel of St.John, St.John Chrysostom is pretty clear that he understood the “keys” to be the same as the power of “binding and loosening”, and that he understood St.John the Apostle (at least) as also standing “upon the Rock”, alluding to the imagery of the 16th chapter of St.Matthew’s Gospel.

What St.Peter is, is “the first” as the Scriptures themselves call him. Neither he nor the rest of the Apostles actually received the gifts promised to them at the time of the promise. So the significance is, that St.Peter was the first of the Apostles to be promised the Priesthood. He would also be the first to preach the Gospel. He is the “type” of the Priesthood in general, and that is generally the tone one will see in the treatments of St.Peter.

Often through simple assumption, things are read into these Patristic teachings on the person and significance of St.Peter which are not in the documents themselves. All praise of St.Peter becomes something to be weighed in terms of “power”, and then for whatever reason applied uniquely to the Bishop of Rome. This of course completely ignores the startling fact that it was not St.Peter who presided over the ancient Apostolic Council of Jerusalem, but St.James the Brother-of-the-Lord. It was he who issued the sentence and formula on behalf of the assembled Apostles, Hierarchs, and Clergy. Interestingly, what influence St.Peter had was charismatic, not as one “Lording it over” another - as our Lord says, it is the Heathens who seek this kind of thing, it’s not of the Gospel (even if sinful Christians so often do such things anyway.) The model presented by Christ for the Apostles, and in turn for their successors (the Bishops) is fraternal. Bishops are not as Presbyters to other Bishops, or a singular “super Bishop” of some kind. Even St.James’ is not presumptuous while presiding over that primitive Council - he writes in the name of those assembled, declaring “it is good to us and the Holy Spirit…”

This notion of the Papacy you present simply isn’t the one that was accepted throughout Christendom - it was very provincial, and shows a very clear pattern of evolution…development to the point that the end product would be utterly unrecognizable to all of it’s early ancestors. The Orthodox cannot accept this, or any of the other innovations distinctive of Catholicism, whether in liturgical matters or in matters of doctrine. This is the source of division between Rome and it’s followers and the Orthodox Church of Christ. Since the 11th century, unfortunately, the differences have multiplied, with Rome in all cases being the agent of change.
I could argue with every point that you’ve countered, but do not currently have the time (this week I’m taking my children to our Byzantine Church’s VBS every day). So, I’ll make this short and sweet…

It doesn’t matter what the Orthodox can accept or not (or Protestantism). Peter was given the keys, and him alone. His authority was given, by Christ, to shepherd the Church throughout time, until His Return. The Seat of Peter, like the Chair of Moses’ authority, is not to be challenged (being derived by God Himself). It’s intention is not for the sole ‘power’ of a particular individual, but bestowed upon the heir of Peter. This singular ‘authority’ is Christ’s, and necessary, in the Church he instituted with men, to keep the flock (the New Israel/The Church) together as one. It is the promise of the Holy Spirit that has kept that intact. The Church is built upon the Rock (Peter).

Slava Isusu Christu!
 
Rome has a separate set of laws for the Roman Church, the CIC. The intratext for that is available at vatican.va in both latin and english. The CCEO on the Vatican website is latin only, which is why I referred to the intratext site, since it is obvious you read English.

The Latin Rite has but one church, the Roman Church.

Seriously, tho’ your terminology sounds likeit is that of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. Using the outdated terminology obfuscates your message needlessly, and can be confusing to those unfamiliar with it.

Also note: Each of the 22 Eastern Churches in union has the option of additional canon laws. The Ruthenian (ByzCath Met. of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris, one of those 22 churches) canon law is posted at Byzcath.org IIRC.
I think that Amado made an important correction, and “do not have the option of additional canon laws.”

"The CCEO is the only code of canons (which are Church laws governing the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome) for all the Eastern Catholic Churches."

"What is meant by Aramis is that each Eastern Catholic Church has the power to adopt “norms” for the implementation of the Eastern Code of Canons and which apply to her particular case. They are in the nature of rules and regulations governing a particular Eastern Catholic Church."

"Thus, the BCC adopted her own “Norms” (“THE NORMS OF PARTICULAR LAW OF THE BYZANTINE METROPOLITAN CHURCH SURI IURIS OF PITTSBURGH, U.S.A.”) and were approved by Rome for implementation in 1999. The “canons” cited in the BCC “Norms” are specific canons in the CCEO, not “additionally” legislated by the BCC."


I appreciate the information/correction from Amado, in response to Aramis.

Despite the slight variation in code of canon law norms (not additional) these Churches (though separate from the Roman Church and it’s Latin Rite), are most assuredly united with the ‘Papacy’, which is what makes them (my Byzantine Church included) ‘Catholic’ with a big C.

For me, if that bond was ever broken with the Papacy, I would be a member of the ‘Roman’ Catholic Church.

In addition, the problem with always referring to the ‘Latin Rite’ of the Church, as Roman, has become a source of derogatory language. As a amateur apologist (very amateur), I have encountered and read many dialogues with anti-Catholic (Protestants) in which the term ‘Roman’ is used in a negative sense and as indicative as ‘bondage’ or some other nonsense. That is why, even though I am a Byzantine Catholic, I always refer to myself as ‘Catholic’. I have always understood this to include all of the ‘Eastern Churches’, and the ‘Roman’ Church. I prefer to use the term ‘rites’, although I understand that this term is not satisfactory for some (seeming to narrow down the Eastern Churches to ‘rubrics’/customs only–thought certainly not the case)–but, the alternative 'calling the Latin Rite of the Church, ‘Roman’, seems to try and narrow Catholicism…which, in reality, can’t be done when looking at the big picture of Church with a big C.
 
The actual term for these “norms” is Particular Law. Each Pariarchate, Archdiocese, and Diocese may add laws partaining to their own faithful.

Much like civil laws, they may not conflict with the “higher level” laws, in this case the CIC and the CCEO.

The Ruthenian Metropolitan Particular Law, for example, prohibits women from ministries within the Altar.

Rome approves these as parts of canon law.
 
Hi

I am trying to follow all of these ‘threads’ so thought I would write you since yours says that you are a Ruthenian Byzantine. I have been attending Holy Protection Byzantine Church in Denver (as well as my Roman Rite Church). There is something about the intimacy of this parish that makes it feel like home to me. Since I have only been a Catholic for 14 years, I know little of the Eastern Rite, but have read several books comparing the Western and Eastern Rites. I will be meeting with Father Michael when he is back in town (and he is the one who was on the Pilgrimage to Israel with me in May). Any publications that you could suggest would be appreciated.

Diana Kullman
Westminster CO
 
The actual term for these “norms” is Particular Law. Each Pariarchate, Archdiocese, and Diocese may add laws partaining to their own faithful.

Much like civil laws, they may not conflict with the “higher level” laws, in this case the CIC and the CCEO.

The Ruthenian Metropolitan Particular Law, for example, prohibits women from ministries within the Altar.

Rome approves these as parts of canon law.
Generally speaking, these “norms” may be considered as part of canon law.

Strictly and canonically speaking, however, these “norms” or “particular laws” as you correctly described are provisions that explicate in a more detailed manner the letter or meaning or province of a specific canon enshrined in the Code (Latin or Eastern). They more or less take the form of rules and regulations implementing the codified canons, which in the codification took into account historical and traditional laws on the matter.

The power to legislate or decree canons in the Catholic Church (East and West) belongs solely to the Supreme Authority, who is the Pope.
 
Hi

I am trying to follow all of these ‘threads’ so thought I would write you since yours says that you are a Ruthenian Byzantine. I have been attending Holy Protection Byzantine Church in Denver (as well as my Roman Rite Church). There is something about the intimacy of this parish that makes it feel like home to me. Since I have only been a Catholic for 14 years, I know little of the Eastern Rite, but have read several books comparing the Western and Eastern Rites. I will be meeting with Father Michael when he is back in town (and he is the one who was on the Pilgrimage to Israel with me in May). Any publications that you could suggest would be appreciated.

Diana Kullman
Westminster CO
Holy Protection in Denver pastored by Fr. Michael is intended to to be a Catholic community worshipping in the Russian Byzantine tradition.

Among the Eastern Catholic Churches using the Slavic rescension/use of the Byzantine Rite akin to the Russians would be the Ruthenians, like our brother Aramis, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics.
 
I am a eastern Catholic. I am learning about church history.
I am learning how the Orthodox joined the Catholic church for largely political reason, as invading armies, Etc. I am looking for evidence that the Catholic Chuch is the true church as opposed to the Orthodox claims. As I am asked, “Why not just be Orthodox?”

Thanks,

John
Hi John,

I struggle with the same thing myself! Knowing history tempt one to become Orthodox. My spiritual father told me though not to worry about it, but to keep on practicing the Eastern Christian Faith in my own Melkite Church and leave the “should we be in union with Rome” question up to our Patriarch.

Wish I had something more satifying myself, so please send me message with what you determine as I am very interested.

Best Wishes,
Christy
 
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