Eastern Catholic and Orthodoxy

  • Thread starter Thread starter jbm0117
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey said:
Wow! That is loaded with errors!
Click to expand...
Contrarily, it is loaded with truth. Though there is much common ground to work from, especially between Catholics and Orthodox, there still remains much debate (obviously, as witnessed in these posts). The various dissident groups have rendered many of the identifying “Marks of the Church” useless to identify the one True Church (though they claim to be that Church).

I just finished sending some comments to a local Protestant minister, who advertises his own faith community (church with a small c) with a cutesy little ad entitled, “Playing Church”. In it, he claims that most everyone is “playing church”. He doesn’t use any particular denominational ‘names’, but it’s easy to identify the Liturgical churches that he’s p(name removed by moderator)ointing in his objections to ‘ritual’ (including Catholics and Orthodox).

His claim, to being the true church, is not one of ‘showing any evidence that his church or particular teachings’ are any truer than others. In fact, he claims that “too many churches, including the ones that are supposedly bible-centered, play games”.

Again, it is important to note that he doesn’t provide, in the article, any reason to believe that HIS ‘Bible-centered’ church is ‘where the search ends’; rather, he just points out the flaws, he views, of others.

This is just an example of how the marks of the Church, and even the definition of ‘Church’ are constantly made to seem useless.

I was further amazed, when he opened the article using the Scripture quote of 1 Timothy 3:15! Pillar and foundation of Truth…the Church…but which one, exactly (according to him, it’s his, I suppose)?
That’s a problem, isn’t it?

byzgirl
 
Mickey said:
It is quite polemical and riddled with errors. But if you desire to accept it as truth, you are free to do so.
Click to expand...
The definition of Church and the other marks of the visible Church are not up for polemical argument…they are the sure way to recognize the one true Church, as opposed to the many churches and Protestant denominations that claim to *be that *Church.

If one is seeking to find it, it makes for a difficult job. The marks that can help clarify ‘which is the true Church’ --have been, for non-Catholics, obscured with such ‘dissident-sourced’ polemics, and an aversion to the authority which Christ gave and intended to preserve the Church.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
(1)Like Vigilius.

(2)For one thing, an edict of that year shows for one thing that some Catholics were being Donatist about things, and refused to accept former Arians.

(3)Take a glance at the edicts for one thing, and get back to me.

fourthcentury.com/old/Theodosian/CTH16.htm

The colletion of Meyendorff on the Byzantine Legacy in the Orthodox Church, and Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions touches on these questions. A case in point, a few centuries later St. Cyril is making the argument that “render unto Caesar” means not the state but specifically the emperor of the Romans, and hence all nations much bow to the emperor at New Rome. The hymns of Nativity also making the point that Augstus called the census so the whole world could be enrolled into the Church, making the connection between empire and Church.

no problem.
Click to expand...
(1) Exactly, just like Vigilius. Just another instance where the Emperors from the East would go to such great lengths to obtain the confirmation of a council from the Bishop of Rome.

(2) Negative. Study the history of the day, the council was not the “death blow” which you make it out to be. The East still suffered from Arianism. If you would like to get iinto particulars, we may.

(3) First off, you have done more than beat a dead horse here. And, how does this help your arguement again? Nobody is denying that the Emperors viewed themselves, rightly, to be in succession of those Emperors that came before them in Rome. They were truly Emperors of the Roman Empire, or what would dwindle into what was left of it. However, this helps out your arguement none. Also, you have provided ZERO scholarship to back your claims. I will not ask you again in this thread, for which, I fear we have both derailed. I will start a new thread regarding only specifically: Codex Theodosianus XVI.i.2.

God bless,

JJR
 
Mickey said:
I knew what you meant.

And I meant Holy Orthodoxy. 👍
Click to expand...
Hmmm.:rolleyes:

And Saint Cyprian thus responds:

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church
 
byzgirl said:
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church
Click to expand...
Wonderful quote by St Cyprian! I have highlighted some things that you may have missed. St Cyprian has a great veneration for the Apostle St Peter. And of course the Holy Orthodox Church loves St Peter also.

God bless.
 
JJR1453 said:
(1) Exactly, just like Vigilius. Just another instance where the Emperors from the East would go to such great lengths to obtain the confirmation of a council from the Bishop of Rome.
Click to expand...
Sooo all that strong arming the Emperors from the East did for the bishops to sign unity agreements (at least at early as the Formula of Pope Hormisdas) shows how much the agreement of the other patriarchs was needed? (in particular, Pope Hormisdas’ command for the emperor to use force to get signatures show how much the “head” needed to act WITH “the college of bishops,” to use Vatican speak?).
(2) Negative. Study the history of the day, the council was not the “death blow” which you make it out to be. The East still suffered from Arianism. If you would like to get iinto particulars, we may.
Click to expand...
Please do, with particulars, as I have heard a lot of nonsense. Like Arians deposed St. John Crysostom, when it was done by Popes Theophilos and St. Cyril. I’ll repeat. After the Second Council it evaported in the East.
(3) First off, you have done more than beat a dead horse here. And, how does this help your arguement again? Nobody is denying that the Emperors viewed themselves, rightly, to be in succession of those Emperors that came before them in Rome. They were truly Emperors of the Roman Empire, or what would dwindle into what was left of it. However, this helps out your arguement none. Also, you have provided ZERO scholarship to back your claims. I will not ask you again in this thread, for which, I fear we have both derailed. I will start a new thread regarding only specifically: Codex Theodosianus XVI.i.2.
Click to expand...
God bless,
Click to expand...
JJR
Click to expand...
Posted in the thread you started, as above. And both Meyendorff and Treadgold are far ahead of your ultramonist scholar.
 
byzgirl said:
Hmmm.:rolleyes:

And Saint Cyprian thus responds:

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church
Click to expand...
You are aware that St. Cyprian solicited (and got) aid from the East to put his patriarch, Pope Stephan in his place?
 
Mickey said:
Wonderful quote by St Cyprian! I have highlighted some things that you may have missed. St Cyprian has a great veneration for the Apostle St Peter. And of course the Holy Orthodox Church loves St Peter also.

God bless.
Click to expand...
You’re not going to get any disagreement from the Catholic Church, the Spouse of Christ, that all the Bishops have authority Mickey. So no, we didn’t miss anything.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
You are aware that St. Cyprian solicited (and got) aid from the East to put his patriarch, Pope Stephan in his place?
Click to expand...
He got aid from a single bishop in the East, and that Bishop appears to have just written Cyprian back. The rest of the Church actually sided with Rome on the matter. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top