Eastern Catholic and Orthodoxy

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False. Wrong. Skewed. Biased.
Thank you for proving my point. 🙂
So, Mickey, clarify for us what IS exactly *happening *between the two patriarchs? What is their disagreement? And what is their solution to that disagreement?
 
If anything is true, anti-Catholicism, in the media, is nothing new, and happens all the time, with unrestricted viciousness. The media constantly, and many times over–unfairly, depicts the Church falsely…attacking the sin and scandal of particular bad priests, or, the beliefs of the Catholic faith…Mary…or the Pope. If we haven’t become the target of screwed and tainted bias, just check out the Catholic League’s web site, or turn on Comedy Central late at night. We get outraged, as Catholics, but have certainly developed a tough skin for hatred and persecution! It’s become commonplace for the media to attack the Catholic Church.

There’s certainly a difference between news that has been ‘scewed and/or tainted’ for a biased intent, and facts. This article wasn’t reporting on the sin of an individual, nor regarding the Orthodox Church’s beliefs…it has reported on a problem (sad and unforunate) regarding a lack of unity (both partriarchs are vying for supremacy, as it says). I don’t think that is up for debate.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a problem, within it’s ecclesiastical hierarcy, with unity. The Chair of Peter prevents such difficulties (Christ’s intention as the means for the Church to maintain unity).
Oh. How is it then that at St. Peter’s first Chair, at Antioch, you have 3 (used to be 4) patriarchs claiming to sit on that Chair? 2 popes (ooops, no. Alone of all the hierachs who submit to Rome, that of Alexandria does NOT have the title of the corresponding Orthodox) at Alexandria, according to the Popes of Rome another Petrine See.

The media talked about the factions in the conclave, and these divisions poped up again after the election (right choice, btw) of B XVI. I don’t think that is up for debate.
 
So, Mickey, clarify for us what IS exactly *happening *between the two patriarchs? What is their disagreement? And what is their solution to that disagreement?
The EP has been trying to set up an Orthodox Vatican on the Bosphoros, and Moscow has been on the forefront in stating in unequivocal terms that we Orthodox did not accept the one in Old Rome, we will not accept one in New Rome.

The solution is to maintain the ecclessiology of the early Church, as we have for 20 centuries.
 
The EP has been trying to set up an Orthodox Vatican on the Bosphoros, and Moscow has been on the forefront in stating in unequivocal terms that we Orthodox did not accept the one in Old Rome, we will not accept one in New Rome.

The solution is to maintain the ecclessiology of the early Church, as we have for 20 centuries.
Amen.
 
Dear brother Isa,

I need to go, so I will respond to your posts #196 and #198 when I return, if someone more qualified than myself has not already done so.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
The EP has been trying to set up an Orthodox Vatican on the Bosphoros, and Moscow has been on the forefront in stating in unequivocal terms that we Orthodox did not accept the one in Old Rome, we will not accept one in New Rome.

The solution is to maintain the ecclessiology of the early Church, as we have for 20 centuries.
maintaining the ecclesiology by separation? So one is ‘trying to set up an Orthodox version of the Vatican’, and the other is denying their allegiance to it? So, in other words, Moscow (Russian Orthodox) won’t see the other as their authority…and maintains their own, separate hierarchy?

Maintaining the ecclesiology of the early Church means ‘maintining it as one, unified body of authority’. That is the dilemma that schism creates.
 
So, in other words, Moscow (Russian Orthodox) won’t see the other as their authority…and maintains their own, separate hierarchy?
There are no other words. Holy Orthodoxy will carry on as they have for two thousand years. 😉
 
maintaining the ecclesiology by separation? So one is ‘trying to set up an Orthodox version of the Vatican’, and the other is denying their allegiance to it? So, in other words, Moscow (Russian Orthodox) won’t see the other as their authority…and maintains their own, separate hierarchy?

Maintaining the ecclesiology of the early Church means ‘maintining it as one, unified body of authority’. That is the dilemma that schism creates.
Maintians their own, seperate hierachy?

The EP commemorates Alexei in his diptychs.

PoM commemorates Barthomew in his diptychs (there was a moment when he didn’t, and the rest of the Church patched that up).

Yes, many outside the Church are salivating at the thought of schism in the Orthodox Church. But it hasn’t happened yet, and there is much to say that it won’t.
 
Actually, no.

The evidence (and it mostly comes from St. Stephen’s) opponents was that it involved all of Africa and the East versus Rome. The canon of the Ecumenical Council did not adopt either extreme, accepting some baptisms of some heretics, but not others. Neither Stephan nor his opponents made a distinction between heretics on the matter.

See Eusebius, and the notes:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.iii.html
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.v.html
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.vi.html

There is another section in Eusebius in which the Popes of Alexandria (btw, this is the earliest attested use of the term “Pope” for a specific hierarch) that the practice of Cyprian was of long standing there:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.viii.html#iii.xii.viii-Page_296

I don’t know why you cited c. XIX of Nice I as “sure did,” as the canon only speaks of rebaptism:

Concerning the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.vi.xxviii.html

The same cite gives the quote of Arles:

If anyone shall come from heresy to the Church, they shall ask him to say the creed; and if they shall perceive that he was baptized into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, he shall have a hand laid on him only that he may receive the Holy Ghost. But if in answer to their questioning he shall not answer this Trinity, let him be baptized.

St. Stephen doesn’t seem to have made this distinction.
Of course, arent we discussing Cyprian’s disagreement with Rome? That is why I have cited these specific canons. Hefele expounds the disagreement well. Allow me to quote from a post that I delivered in another forum:

Let us first turn to the Council of Arles(314). Before I quote the canon associated with re-baptism let us first turn to St. Augustine:

“The question relating to re-baptism was decided against Cyprian,
in a full council of the whole Church” (Hefele, His. Coun.).

The more important question remains, what council was the saint refering to? Either the Council of Arles or 1st of Nicea are the options. Either way, he views it as opposing Cyprian’s stance.

Hefele notes on the 8th canon of Arles(314):

“We have already seen that several African synods, held
under Agrippinus and Cyprian, ordered that whoever had been
baptized by a heretic, was to be re-baptized on re-entering the
Church. The Council of Arles abolished this law of the
Africans, and decreed that those who had received baptism
from heretics in the name of the holy Trinity were not to be
again baptized, but simply to receive the imposition of hands,
ut accipiat Spiritum sanctum. Thus, as we have already said,
the imposition of hands on those converted was ad paenitentiam
and ad confirmationem. The Council of Arles promulgated in
this eighth canon the rule that has always been in force, and
is still preserved in our time, with regard to baptism conferred
by heretics: it was adopted and renewed by the nineteenth
canon of the Ecumenical Council of Nicea.”

Thus St. Vincent of Lerins states in the 6th chapter of his Commonitory:

"Great then is the example of these same blessed men, an example plainly divine, and worthy to be called to mind, and medirated upon continually by every true Catholic, who, like the seven-branched candlestick, shining with the sevenfold light of the Holy Spirit, showed to posterity how thenceforward the audaciousness of profane novelty, in all the several rantings of error, might be crushed by the authority of hallowed antiquity.

Nor is there anything new in this? For it has always been the case in the Church, that the more a man is under the influence of religion, so much the more prompt is he to oppose innovations. Examples there are without number: but to be brief, we will take one, and that, in preference to others, from the Apostolic See, so that it may be clearer than day to every one with how great energy, with how great zeal, with how great earnestness, the blessed successors of the blessed apostles have constantly defended the integrity of the religion which they have once received.

Once on a time then, Agrippinus, bishop of Carthage, of venerable memory, held the doctrine—and he was the first who held it—that Baptism ought to be repeated, contrary to the divine canon, contrary to the rule of the universal Church, contrary to the customs and institutions of our ancestors. This innovation drew after it such an amount of evil, that it not only gave an example of sacrilege to heretics of all sorts, but proved an occasion of error to certain Catholics even.

When then all men protested against the novelty, and the priesthood everywhere, each as his zeal prompted him, opposed it, Pope Stephen of blessed memory, Prelate of the Apostolic See, in conjunction indeed with his colleagues but yet himself the foremost, withstood it, thinking it right, I doubt not, that as he exceeded all others in the authority of his place, so he should also in the devotion of his faith. In fine, in an epistle sent at the time to Africa, he laid down this rule: Let there be no innovation—nothing but what has been handed down. For that holy and prudent man well knew that true piety admits no other rule than that whatsoever things have been faithfully received from our fathers the same are to be faithfully consigned to our children; and that it is our duty, not to lead religion whither we would, but rather to follow religion whither it leads; and that it is the part of Christian modesty and gravity not to hand down our own beliefs or observances to those who come after us, but to preserve and keep what we have received from those who went before us. What then was the issue of the whole matter? What but the usual and customary one? Antiquity was retained, novelty was rejected.

But it may be, the cause of innovation at that time lacked patronage. On the contrary, it had in its favor such powerful talent, such copious eloquence, such a number of partisans, so much resemblance to truth, such weighty support in Scripture (only interpreted in a novel and perverse sense), that it seems to me that that whole conspiracy could not possibly have been defeated, unless the sole cause of this extraordinary stir, the very novelty of what was so undertaken, so defended, so belauded, had proved wanting to it. In the end, what result, under God, had that same African Council or decree? None whatever. The whole affair, as though a dream, a fable, a thing of no possible account, was annulled, cancelled, and trodden underfoot.

And O marvellous revolution! The authors of this same doctrine are judged Catholics, the followers heretics; the teachers are absolved, the disciples condemned; the writers of the books will be children of the Kingdom, the defenders of them will have their portion in Hell. For who is so demented as to doubt that that blessed light among all holy bishops and martyrs, Cyprian, together with the rest of his colleagues, will reign with Christ; or, who on the other hand so sacrilegious as to deny that the Donatists and those other pests, who boast the authority of that council for their iteration of baptism, will be consigned to eternal fire with the devil?"

As far as the more ancient custom goes, Cyprian himself tries to relate that the re-baptism of heretics is of no innovation. However, Cyprian , just as St. Vincent, attributes the earliest he knows of the custom to Agrippinus; which is to say in the early 3rd Century (possibly 220 A.D.) He only replies:

“Is antiquity, then, more precious than truth?”

Moreover, he states:

“In spiritual things we must observe what the Holy Spirit has (afterwards) more
fully revealed (id in spiritualibus sequendum, quod in meliiis
fuerit a Spiritu sancto revelatum).” He acknowledges, therefore,
in his practice a progress brought about by the successive
revelations of the Holy Spirit (Hefele, Hist. Coun.).

If it hasnt become clear yet that Cyprian acknowledges the older custom of not re-baptizing; he further states:

“Divine mercy may well come to their aid; but because one has
erred once, it is no reason for continuing to err (non tamen, quia
aliquando erratum est, idea semper errandum est).”

But what was Firmilian’s stance on the antiquity of the two customs? He writes in a letter documented with the Letters of Cyprian:

" You Africans, can answer Stephen, that having found
the truth, you have renounced the error of your (previous) custom
(vos dicere Afri potestis, cognita veritate crrorem vos consududinis reliquisse)."

Firmilian acknowledges the older custom, but wishes to attribute it to purely human tradition. But how did Firmilian respond when he felt the need to defend his territory(Asia Minor) against his adversaries? He responds with the greatest answer of all: “We do not remember when this practice began amongst us!” He finally appeals to the synod of Iconium, which is to say, about the year 230 A. D.
 
(CONT’D)

Now, having dealt sufficiently with the traditions antiquity let us turn to the other canons of the Church:

"Concerning the former Paulinists who seek refuge in the catholic church, it is determined that they must be rebaptised unconditionally. Those who in the past have been enrolled among the clergy, if they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, are to be rebaptised and ordained by the bishop of the catholic church. But if on inquiry they are shown to be unsuitable, it is right that they should be deposed. Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity. (Canon 19, 1st Nicea)

Now, let us address this canon. I take it you assert that the Roman ruling on the matter must be false because the canon simply states “re-baptism”. If you have came to this conclusion, dear friend, let me make clear what may at first be cloudy. The canon is addressed to the Paulinists that wish to revert Catholic, and so the canon relates they must, in fact, be re-baptised. The reason for their re-baptism is precisely because they come from Paul of Somosata. They need to be re-baptised, and here’s the fine point, because their baptism is invalid.

"The baptism of Christ, as usual was regarded by Paul as a step in His junction with the Logos. If He had been God by nature, Paul argued, there would be two Gods. He forbade hymns to Christ, and openly attacked the older (Alexandrian) interpretations of Scripture.
The party of Paul did not at once disappear. The Council of Nicæa declared the baptism conferred by the Paulianists to be invalid. There is something, though not much, of his teaching in the Lucianist and Arian systems which issued from -->Antioch. But their Christology was the very opposite of his, which was rather to reappear in a modified -->form in Theodore of Mopsuestia, -->Diodorus, Nestorius, and even Theodoret, though these later Antiochenes warmly rejected the imputation of any agreement with the heretic Paul, even in Christology. newadvent.org/cathen/11589a.htm

Onto the 7th canon of Constantinople which, in itself, really should own its own discussion. For the canon can not even be attributed to the synod of 382. Nevertheless, its words are as follows:

Those who embrace orthodoxy and join the number of those who are being saved from the heretics, we receive in the following regular and customary manner: Arians, Macedonians, Sabbatians, Novatians, those who call themselves Cathars and Aristae, Quartodeciman or Tetradites, Apollinarians-these we receive when they hand in statements and anathematise every heresy which is not of the same mind as the holy, catholic and apostolic church of God. They are first sealed or anointed with holy chrism on the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth and ears. As we seal them we say: “Seal of the gift of the holy Spirit”. But Eunomians, who are baptised in a single immersion, Montanists (called Phrygians here), Sabellians, who teach the identity of Father and Son and make certain other difficulties, and all other sects – since there are many here, not least those who originate in the country of the Galatians – we receive all who wish to leave them and embrace orthodoxy as we do Greeks. On the first day we make Christians of them, on the second catechumens, on the third we exorcise them by breathing three times into their faces and their ears, and thus we catechise them and make them spend time in the church and listen to the scriptures; and then we baptise them. (Canon 7, consolidated with 1st Const.)

We see the same thing here with this canon. The special note that should be taken from these canons is thus: If the baptism is valid, then they are NOT to be re-baptised.

But what is Stephen’s viewpoint for this ancient custom? And more importantly does it agree with the canons?

In Cyprian’s 73rd Epistle he writes:

“Those who forbid the baptism of heretics lay great stress upon this, that
even those who had been baptized by Marcion were not re-
baptized, because they had already been baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ.”

In this very same Epistle Cyprian openly ackowledges that heretics baptise in nomine Christi. Moreover, he acknowledges that those who oppose him accept this baptism even if administered outside the Church. In the name of the Trinity, baptism in valid.

Hefele gives testimony to what Firmilian felt about Stephen and the Trinitarian formula:

“He relates, indeed, that about twenty-two years before
he had baptized a woman in his own country who professed
to be a prophetess, but who, in fact, was possessed by an evil
spirit. Now, he asks, would Stephen and his partisans approve
even of the baptism which she had received, because it had
been administered with the formula of the Trinity (maxime
cui nee symbolum Trinitatis defuit)?”

Moreover, in the anonymous letter written during the time of Cyprian: De Rebaptismate starts:

“I Observe that it has been asked among the brethren what course ought specially to be adopted towards the persons of those who, although baptized in heresy, have yet been baptized in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
newadvent.org/fathers/0515.htm

So, then, what of penance and confirmation? Where does Stephen stand on these issues, or did he even address them at all?

Hefele notes: ‘Stephen adds, in panitentiam, that is, that " it is necessary
that a penance should be imposed on the convert."’

Again he makes note of Cyprian’s words:

“If baptism out of the Church is valid, it is no longer necessary even to lay hands on the
converts, ut Spiritum Sanctum consequatur et signctur;” that
is to say: You contradict yourselves if you attribute a real
value to baptism by heretics; you must also equally admit
the validity of confirmation by heretics. Now you require
that those who have been confirmed by heretics should be so
again. S. Cyprian here forgets the great difference,which
exists between the value of baptism and of confirmation;1
but his words prove that Stephen wished that penance and
confirmation should be bestowed upon converts.

And he lastly concludes:

“The same conclusion is to be drawn from certain votes of
the bishops assembled at the third Council of Carthage (256).
Thus Secundinus Bishop of Carpi said: " The imposition of
hands (without the repetition of baptism, as Stephen required)
cannot bring down the Holy Spirit upon the converts, because
they have not yet even been baptized.” Nemesianus Bishop
of Thubuni speaks still more clearly: " They (the adversaries)
believe that by imposition of hands the Holy Spirit is imparted,
whilst regeneration is possible only when one receives
the two sacraments (baptism and confirmation3) in the Church."
These two testimonies prove that Stephen regarded confirmation
as well as penance to be necessary for converts."

As you are familiar, I have taken much from Hefele. I encourage you to read his work in its entirety. books.google.com/books?id=ifECAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA116&output=html
The re-baptism controversy deals in pgs. 98-116
 
Maintians their own, seperate hierachy?

The EP commemorates Alexei in his diptychs.

PoM commemorates Barthomew in his diptychs (there was a moment when he didn’t, and the rest of the Church patched that up).

Yes, many outside the Church are salivating at the thought of schism in the Orthodox Church. But it hasn’t happened yet, and there is much to say that it won’t.
We, as Catholics, are not ‘outside’, and are certainly not ‘salivating’ at the thought of further schism; in fact, it’s quite the opposite.
However, it seems that there are many pulling factions within the Orthodox Church, that are at odds with each other, when it comes to ‘whose in charge’ or who has *more *authority than another. I don’t think it can be ignored as just ‘something bad which has thus been avoided’, but a sign of something symptomatic of the original schism from the Seat of Peter.

orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/commem_pope.aspx
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_patriarch.aspx
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/rcortho.pdf
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
 
Ecumenism is the great heresy of our times.
Be watchful.
Wow, Mickey, I completely disagree with you on this :eek:

Christian Ecumenism, properly employed, is simply the striving for the fullness of communion between Christians, a striving based on truth, legitimite and complementary diversity, and charity. John 17:20-21 demands ecumenism.

I do think, though, that ecumenism can be falsely utilized to achieve a wrong outcome. Religious indifferentism, contradictory pluralism, and other evils of this sort can tarnish legitimate ecumenical activities. I see ecumenism as neutral (not a heresy), it can be used for a good end, or abused for an evil end.

God bless,

Rony
 
We, as Catholics, are not ‘outside’, and are certainly not ‘salivating’ at the thought of further schism; in fact, it’s quite the opposite.
However, it seems that there are many pulling factions within the Orthodox Church, that are at odds with each other, when it comes to ‘whose in charge’ or who has *more *authority than another. I don’t think it can be ignored as just ‘something bad which has thus been avoided’, but a sign of something symptomatic of the original schism from the Seat of Peter.

orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/commem_pope.aspx
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_patriarch.aspx
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/rcortho.pdf
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
If that were true, then we’d be as splintered as the Great Western Schism, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation and the Conciliar movement and Vatican I and II have made you.

Is there anything specific I am supposed to be looking for in your links?
 
Of course, arent we discussing Cyprian’s disagreement with Rome? That is why I have cited these specific canons. Hefele expounds the disagreement well. Allow me to quote from a post that I delivered in another forum:

Let us first turn to the Council of Arles(314). Before I quote the canon associated with re-baptism let us first turn to St. Augustine:

“The question relating to re-baptism was decided against Cyprian,
in a full council of the whole Church” (Hefele, His. Coun.).
Is this Hefele, or Augustine talking?
The more important question remains, what council was the saint refering to? Either the Council of Arles or 1st of Nicea are the options. Either way, he views it as opposing Cyprian’s stance.
The canons that say rebaptize?
Hefele notes on the 8th canon of Arles(314):

“We have already seen that several African synods, held
under Agrippinus and Cyprian, ordered that whoever had been
baptized by a heretic, was to be re-baptized on re-entering the
Church. The Council of Arles abolished this law of the
Africans, and decreed that those who had received baptism
from heretics in the name of the holy Trinity were not to be
again baptized, but simply to receive the imposition of hands,
ut accipiat Spiritum sanctum. Thus, as we have already said,
the imposition of hands on those converted was ad paenitentiam
and ad confirmationem. The Council of Arles promulgated in
this eighth canon the rule that has always been in force, and
is still preserved in our time, with regard to baptism conferred
by heretics: it was adopted and renewed by the nineteenth
canon of the Ecumenical Council of Nicea.”
The ones that say rebaptize?

Thus St. Vincent of Lerins states in the 6th chapter of his Commonitory:

"Great then is the example of these same blessed men, an example plainly divine, and worthy to be called to mind, and medirated upon continually by every true Catholic, who, like the seven-branched candlestick, shining with the sevenfold light of the Holy Spirit, showed to posterity how thenceforward the audaciousness of profane novelty, in all the several rantings of error, might be crushed by the authority of hallowed antiquity.

Nor is there anything new in this? For it has always been the case in the Church, that the more a man is under the influence of religion, so much the more prompt is he to oppose innovations. Examples there are without number: but to be brief, we will take one, and that, in preference to others, from the Apostolic See, so that it may be clearer than day to every one with how great energy, with how great zeal, with how great earnestness, the blessed successors of the blessed apostles have constantly defended the integrity of the religion which they have once received.

Once on a time then, Agrippinus, bishop of Carthage, of venerable memory, held the doctrine—and he was the first who held it—that Baptism ought to be repeated, contrary to the divine canon, contrary to the rule of the universal Church, contrary to the customs and institutions of our ancestors…

As I briefly posted, the other Churches pointed to the antiquity of rebaptism.
Actually Eusebius notes that the Sabellian heresy was implicated:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.vii.html

and a general question of heretics:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.x.html

and a general question of universal practice:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.vi.html
…And O marvellous revolution! The authors of this same doctrine are judged Catholics, the followers heretics; the teachers are absolved, the disciples condemned; the writers of the books will be children of the Kingdom, the defenders of them will have their portion in Hell. For who is so demented as to doubt that that blessed light among all holy bishops and martyrs, Cyprian, together with the rest of his colleagues, will reign with Christ; or, who on the other hand so sacrilegious as to deny that the Donatists and those other pests, who boast the authority of that council for their iteration of baptism, will be consigned to eternal fire with the devil?"
Interesting he says that, because we have no evidence St. Cyprian changed his position, in particular as support came from the Sees (plural) of the East.
As far as the more ancient custom goes, Cyprian himself tries to relate that the re-baptism of heretics is of no innovation. However, Cyprian , just as St. Vincent, attributes the earliest he knows of the custom to Agrippinus; which is to say in the early 3rd Century (possibly 220 A.D.) He only replies:

“Is antiquity, then, more precious than truth?”

Moreover, he states:

“In spiritual things we must observe what the Holy Spirit has (afterwards) more
fully revealed (id in spiritualibus sequendum, quod in meliiis
fuerit a Spiritu sancto revelatum).” He acknowledges, therefore,
in his practice a progress brought about by the successive
revelations of the Holy Spirit (Hefele, Hist. Coun.).
where does Vincent end and Hefele begin?
If it hasnt become clear yet that Cyprian acknowledges the older custom of not re-baptizing; he further states:

“Divine mercy may well come to their aid; but because one has
erred once, it is no reason for continuing to err (non tamen, quia
aliquando erratum est, idea semper errandum est).”

But what was Firmilian’s stance on the antiquity of the two customs? He writes in a letter documented with the Letters of Cyprian:

" You Africans, can answer Stephen, that having found
the truth, you have renounced the error of your (previous) custom
(vos dicere Afri potestis, cognita veritate crrorem vos consududinis reliquisse)."
What previous custom is that?
 
Firmilian acknowledges the older custom, but wishes to attribute it to purely human tradition. But how did Firmilian respond when he felt the need to defend his territory(Asia Minor) against his adversaries? He responds with the greatest answer of all: “We do not remember when this practice began amongst us!” He finally appeals to the synod of Iconium, which is to say, about the year 230 A. D.
Firmilian states when he thought rebaptism of heretics started, from the beginning:

But since that messenger sent by you was in haste to return to you, and the winter season was pressing, we replied what we could to your letter. And indeed, as respects what Stephen has said, as though the apostles forbade those who come from heresy to be baptized, and delivered this also to be observed by their successors, you have replied most abundantly, that no one is so foolish as to believe that the apostles delivered this, when it is even well known that these heresies themselves, execrable and detestable as they are, arose subsequently; when even Marcion the disciple of Cerdo is found to have introduced his sacrilegious tradition against God long after the apostles, and after long lapse of time from them. Apelles, also consenting to his blasphemy, added many other new and more important matters hostile to faith and truth. But also the time of Valentinus and Basilides is manifest, that they too, after the apostles, and after a long period, rebelled against the Church of God with their wicked lies. It is plain that the other heretics, also, afterwards introduced their evil sects and perverse inventions, even as every one was led by error; all of whom, it is evident, were self-condemned, and have declared against themselves an inevitable sentence before the day of judgment; and he who confirms the baptism of these, what else does he do but adjudge himself with them, and condemn himself, making himself a partaker with such?
  1. But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles
He specifically states the Iconium was not the beginning of the matter, but a confirmation of the practice:
7…For as a heretic may not lawfully ordain nor lay on hands, so neither may he baptize, nor do any thing holily or spiritually, since he is an alien from spiritual and deifying sanctity. All which we some time back confirmed in Iconium, which is a place in Phrygia, when we were assembled together with those who had gathered from Galatia and Cilicia, and other neighbouring countries, as to be held and firmly vindicated against heretics, when there was some doubt in certain minds concerning that matter.

8…But what kind of a thing is it, that when we see that Paul, after John’s baptism, baptized his disciples again, we are hesitating to baptize those who come to the Church from heresy after their unhallowed and profane dipping. Unless, perchance, Paul was inferior to the bishops of these times, so that these indeed can by imposition of hands alone give the Holy Spirit to those heretics who come (to the Church), while Paul was not fitted to give the Holy Spirit by imposition of hands to those who had been baptized by John, unless he had first baptized them also with the baptism of the Church.
  1. But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?—unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans’ custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles. Nor do we remember that this at any time began among us, since it has always been observed here, that we knew none but one Church of God, and accounted no baptism holy except that of the holy Church.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.lxxiv.html
 
If that were true, then we’d be as splintered as the Great Western Schism, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation and the Conciliar movement and Vatican I and II have made you.
Are you not? If not, then mummified (without internal organs).
 
Actually Eusebius notes that the Sabellian heresy was implicated:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.vii.html

and a general question of heretics:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.x.html
I don’t exactly know what the point of bringing these up are. In any case, St. Stephen’s rationale should be applied even to these - did they have the correct form of baptizing in the Names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? That it self is a distinguishing factor, because some heretics were only baptizing in the name of the Father and Son, or the Son alone or the Father alone, etc. Obviously, Pope St. Stephen would not have accepted the baptism of these.

In contrast, St. Cyprian did not distinguish AT ALL.
and a general question of universal practice:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.vi.html
Yes, I’ve read of the notion that the debate between Pope St. Stephen and St. Cyprian was really only one of practice, and not doctrine. However, both Catholics and Orthodox today treat it as a matter of doctrine. See- development DOES occur!😛

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Ecumenism is the great heresy of our times.

Be watchful.
Ecumenism, by definition, means to be of “one house”.

"There is no institution to which one can point and say “That is the Orthodox Church.” There is no “Orthodoxy.” There are only separate, totally independent, national, ethnic churches. Which of the sixteen or so national Churches is a convert supposed to join? The Russian? the Greek? the Antiochian? the Rumanian? The list of possibilities goes on and on.

Members of these various churches to which we commonly but mistakenly give the generic term “Orthodoxy” or “the Orthodox Church” share basically the same faith. But the terms “Orthodoxy” and “Orthodox Church” are only abstractions. They correspond to no empirical entity. A member of the Russian Church does not automatically belong to the Greek Church; a member of the Bulgarian Church does not belong to the Rumanian Church.


**Suppose an American Protestant ignores history and decides to become an “Orthodox” Christian. Where is the “Orthodox Church” he wants to join? It does not exist. He will have to make his choice (“pick a number . . .”) among the thirty-eight separate jurisdictions of Eastern churches in this country.

What we generally call “Orthodoxy” is in fact a very loose federation of “autocephalous” (each its own head) churches. Though essentially united in what they believe, they are deeply divided by nationalistic, ethnic differences, rivalries, yes, even hatreds, most of whose origins go back many centuries.**

A century ago, a learned member of the Russian Church (who embraced Catholic teaching on the papacy) pointed out that the human race is divided into racial, cultural, national groupings. He asked, rhetorically, will Christ seek to draw humanity to himself in these groupings by giving them “independent national Churches”? (He was speaking of the disunity among the Eastern national churches.) Did Christ say to Peter, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Churches?” (Vladimir Solovyov, Russia and the Universal Church, 86)."

"God wills unity for his people. Christian disunity greatly hinders proclaiming the gospel to a desperately needy world. And so the Catholic Church is committed to carrying on ecumenism. Indeed, that commitment is explicit and firm.

Ecumenism “is not just some sort of ‘appendix’ which is added to the Church’s traditional activity. Rather, ecumenism is an organic part of her life and work.” Therefore, it “must pervade all that she is and does; it must be like the fruit borne by a healthy and flourishing tree which grows to its full stature.”

John Paul sums up the meaning of Christ’s high-priestly prayer for unity in these words: “To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father’s plan from all eternity.” Again, “God wills the [Catholic] Church because he wills unity”

The goal of Catholic ecumenism is to restore unity to the separated traditions by bringing them within the unity of the Catholic Church (UR 24). The current Pope assures the world that full communion, the hallmark of restored unity, “will have to come about through the acceptance of the whole truth into which the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s disciples” (UUS 36). And where is that truth to be found?

“It is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained”

The Catholic Church and the churches of the East have particularly close bonds, says the Holy Father. “We [East and West] have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity.”

Pope John Paul declares, “The Church of Christ is one. If divisions exist, that is one thing; they must be overcome, but the Church is one, the Church of Christ between East and West can only be one, one and united.”
“The Church must breathe with her two lungs!”

The second message of Ut Unum Sint is this: The Catholic Church alone has preserved the fullness of the truth and the means of grace with which God endowed his Church. “Full unity will come about when all [Churches and communities] share in the fullness of the means of salvation entrusted by Christ to his Church.” The Catholic Church, in other words, is the one true Church. The unity which Christ wills for his Church requires that all Christians be reconciled in full communion with the Catholic Church.

The ministry of the Successor of Peter has been established by God as the Church’s “perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity,” in the words of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Church. The Spirit sustains that ministry “to enable all the others to share in this essential good.” The ministry of the Bishop of Rome is “the visible sign and guarantor of unity” of all Christian (Ut Unum Sint, section 88; italics his). One might paraphrase the Pope’s teaching by calling the papacy "the sacrament of unity
ecumenical dialogue leads (or should lead) the participants to question one another, as well as understand and inform one another. Dialogue helps participants to see their actual disagreements clearly. These disagreements must be approached charitably, respecting the demands of the consciences of all the participants.

Catholic ecumenists are required “to avoid both false irenicism [pretending that unity exists where it does not] and indifference to the Church’s ordinances.”
The truth is that for the Catholic Church ecumenism is apologetics is ecumenism
Only within the Catholic Church can other Christians find “the unity of the one and only Church, which Christ bestowed on his Church from the beginning,” unity which “she can never lose.”

The objective of all ecumenical activity (“this holy objective”) is “the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ.” This teaching is the foundation of authentic Catholic ecumenism. It is the starting-point of Catholic apologetics.
 
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