Eastern Catholic opinion wanted on Formula of Hormisdas

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Since you guys are the experts of this stuff I wanted your opinion on the formula as far as Peterine Primacy goes.

text sample found
becominghinged.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/formula-of-hormisdas/

I note the EO in talking about this subject usually leave it out… This guy though does raise some interesting objections. Could you weigh in on them please.

energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/02/16/some-notes-on-the-acacian-schism/
What is the text of the “shortened formula?” Even if, as the article intimates, it leaves out the excommunications and references to Peter, it would still contain statements about the unsullied Faith of the Church of Rome et al. But I would rather wait for the actual text of the “shortened formula” before giving a definite opinion.

Regarding the “fellow minister” part — so what? That is easily admitted even by papalists.

Blessings
 
What is the text of the “shortened formula?” Even if, as the article intimates, it leaves out the excommunications and references to Peter, it would still contain statements about the unsullied Faith of the Church of Rome et al. But I would rather wait for the actual text of the “shortened formula” before giving a definite opinion.

Regarding the “fellow minister” part — so what? That is easily admitted even by papalists.

Blessings
That’s what I would like to know too! 🙂 I notice he didn’t answer the one guy that asked for his sources (which makes me wonder about hearsay).

(I know however he is generally respected online academic)
 
Since you guys are the experts of this stuff I wanted your opinion on the formula as far as Peterine Primacy goes.

text sample found
becominghinged.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/formula-of-hormisdas/

I note the EO in talking about this subject usually leave it out… This guy though does raise some interesting objections. Could you weigh in on them please.

energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/02/16/some-notes-on-the-acacian-schism/
It was written by P. Hormisdas and Justin forced the eastern bishops to sign it. Just because they signed it doesn’t mean it actually means anything. All the eastern bishops signed the Henoticon in 482 as well and consequently declared union with Alexandria (Peter Mongus) and Antioch (Peter the Fuller) rather than Rome (I think Felix III). What matters is what has been accepted through the providence of God. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church so the Church as it is now must be true. That doesn’t mean that every single statement made by a bishop or group of bihsops in the past is true. What it means is that through the providence of God the Church has maintained the true faith and destroyed heresy when necessary. It is not men that protect the Church but God Himself.

That is great that P. Hormisdas thought highly of his position. In 680 P. Honorius was condemned as a heretic. The condemnation specifically calls him “Honorius the heretic”. The early Church did not have the ultramontane view of the pope that is believed in the west, even though Rome may have.
 
It was written by P. Hormisdas and Justin forced the eastern bishops to sign it. Just because they signed it doesn’t mean it actually means anything. All the eastern bishops signed the Henoticon in 482 as well and consequently declared union with Alexandria (Peter Mongus) and Antioch (Peter the Fuller) rather than Rome (I think Felix III). What matters is what has been accepted through the providence of God. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church so the Church as it is now must be true. That doesn’t mean that every single statement made by a bishop or group of bihsops in the past is true. What it means is that through the providence of God the Church has maintained the true faith and destroyed heresy when necessary. It is not men that protect the Church but God Himself.
Apples and oranges, methinks. The Henoticon was not accepted by the Catholic Church - EVER. On the other hand, wholly orthodox bishops signed the Formula of Hormisdas.
That is great that P. Hormisdas thought highly of his position. In 680 P. Honorius was condemned as a heretic. The condemnation specifically calls him “Honorius the heretic”. The early Church did not have the ultramontane view of the pope that is believed in the west, even though Rome may have.
Well, condemnations of persons are not infallible, so the Council could have been wrong. Besides, we have contemporary witnesses, such as Honorius’ own secretary and St. Maximos the confessor, who explained that Honorius’ words are to be understood in a miathelite sense, instead of a monothelite sense. In any case, that would not excuse Pope Honorius from permitting by his inaction the monothelite heresy to spread. So he certainly aided in its spread, though not by his teaching, but rather by his inaction. What awesome and fearful responsibility the Petrine office of the Bishop of Rome possessed. His condemnation is indicative of the great expectation the Church had of his divine obligations to the Church of God, Honorius who was condemned as a heretic merely for failing to stamp out the heresy that was directly before him, which was his foremost solemn duty as holder of the Petrine office…

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Apples and oranges, methinks. The Henoticon was not accepted by the Catholic Church - EVER. On the other hand, wholly orthodox bishops signed the Formula of Hormisdas.
It depends on what you say is acceptance by the Catholic Church. It was signed by several hundred bishops. If you say that acceptance by the Catholic Church means that the pope approved it then of course not. It is the same thing as the formula. The formula has never been accepted by the east in any greater sense than the Henoticon was.
Well, condemnations of persons are not infallible, so the Council could have been wrong. Besides, we have contemporary witnesses, such as Honorius’ own secretary and St. Maximos the confessor, who explained that Honorius’ words are to be understood in a miathelite sense, instead of a monothelite sense. In any case, that would not excuse Pope Honorius from permitting by his inaction the monothelite heresy to spread. So he certainly aided in its spread, though not by his teaching, but rather by his inaction. What awesome and fearful responsibility the Petrine office of the Bishop of Rome possessed. His condemnation is indicative of the great expectation the Church had of his divine obligations to the Church of God, Honorius who was condemned as a heretic merely for failing to stamp out the heresy that was directly before him, which was his foremost solemn duty as holder of the Petrine office…

Blessings,
Marduk
I would like to see the words of Maximus you refer to because I have never heard about them. The fact is that Honorius refers to Christ having one will in his letters and he was condemned for it. We can exhonerate every heretic of their language but the fact is that the terminology of orthodoxy was set and honorius was condemned because he didn’t fit within the bounds. Maybe we can say now ‘its all the same’ but the fact remains that he was condemned as a heretic. The arguement that he was condemned for not stamping out the heresy is nonsense, he is specifically called as a heretic (Honorius the heretic). He was condemned for heresy; he was condemned because in his letters he used one will language.
 
It depends on what you say is acceptance by the Catholic Church. It was signed by several hundred bishops. If you say that acceptance by the Catholic Church means that the pope approved it then of course not. It is the same thing as the formula. The formula has never been accepted by the east in any greater sense than the Henoticon was.
The reason that there were some bishops who refused to sign the Formula of Hormisdas is because they were still holding on to (what the Catholic orthodox Church considered) heretical ideas - i.e., they wanted to keep supporting the Henoticon. They were not, as you suggest, opposing the primacy of the Pope per se. EVERY HERETICAL SECT OPPOSED THE PRIMACY OF THE POPE because the bishop of Rome was the standard of orthodoxy. But when they agreed with the Pope, it was all fine and well, and they considered the Pope their head.

Brother Jimmy, I simply don;t understand where you are coming from. It reminds me of the argument proposed by some EO that because the majority of Eastern bishops did not support the Council of Sardica, then that means the Pope did not possess the prerogatives that Council recognized the Pope to have possessed. The problem with that argument is that ALL THOSE EASTERN BISHOPS WERE HERETICS. The same thing with the argument from Cyprian. When he agreed with him, Cyprian was a papalist to a tee, supporting the bishop of Rome and his prerogatives. When he disagreed with him, all of a sudden he backtracks, but history has demonstrated that St. Cyprian was wrong and Pope St. Stephen was right. In truth, EO apologists have no grounds for their position against the papacy from the early Church. Every fully orthodox Christian in the early Church was united to Rome and recognized her prerogatives. Only heretics and those in error in the early Church can be used by EO apologists as their supposed “proof” against the papacy.
I would like to see the words of Maximus you refer to because I have never heard about them.
I don’t have time for the research right now. Soon, if someone else has not provide it sooner.
The fact is that Honorius refers to Christ having one will in his letters and he was condemned for it. We can exhonerate every heretic of their language but the fact is that the terminology of orthodoxy was set and honorius was condemned because he didn’t fit within the bounds. Maybe we can say now ‘its all the same’ but the fact remains that he was condemned as a heretic. The arguement that he was condemned for not stamping out the heresy is nonsense, he is specifically called as a heretic (Honorius the heretic). He was condemned for heresy; he was condemned because in his letters he used one will language.
Fine. He was condemned a “heretic.” You have your reasons why you believe he was so, and I have mine. In any case, one thing is certain - Pope Honorius never publicly taught it to the Church, so it doesn’t make a dent in the dogma of papal infallibility.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I would like to see the words of Maximus you refer to because I have never heard about them.
I guess there were THREE contemporary figures who asserted that Pope Honorius only meant to express a miathelite understanding of the term, and not a monothelite. They were Pope John IV (who wrote an “Apology for Pope Honorius”), John Symponus (the very one who composed the letter from Pope Honorius to the Patriarch Sergius), and St. Maximos (basing his defense on statements by John Symponus).

Here is an excerpt from the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia:

[Pope] Severinus only reigned two months, but condemned the Ecthesis, and so did his successor [Pope] John IV. Emperor Heraclius then wrote to the pope, laying the blame on [patriarch] Sergius, and disowning the Ecthesis. He died shortly afterwards (February, 641). To his elder son, [Pope] John IV addressed a letter known as the “Apology for Pope Honorius.” He explains quite truly that both Sergius and Honorius asserted one Will only because they would not admit contrary wills; yet he shows by his argument that they were wrong in using so misleading an expression. St. Maximus of Constantinople, a monk and formerly secretary of [Emperor] Heraclius, now becomes the protagonist of orthodoxy and of submission to Rome. His defence of Honorius is based upon the statements of a certain abbot, John Symponus, the composer of the letter of Honorius, to the effect that the pope only meant to deny that Christ had not two contrary human wills, such as are found in our fallen nature.

The actual text from St. Maximos will have to wait, unless, as stated, someone else has not provided it sooner.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Of course the heretics, or miaphysites, opposed the formula because it condemned them. It was either communion with Rome or the miaphysites. The only pope of the time to have any ecumenical sense was Anastasius (Pope from 492 to 496). The only ones who conedmned the henoticon were the bishops of the west who were disregarded by communion with the miaphysites. My point is that just because some of the bishops signed the formula doesn’t make it authoritative. The only thing that came of it was communion with Rome and the west rather than the monophysites. It holds no more authority than the henoticon, which means that it holds none.

Rome has developed a doctrine that isn’t present in the early Church anywhere except maybe in Rome itself. It is a doctrine that Rome has continually attempted to force on the rest of the Church. The Eastern Orthodox take the position of the Greek fathers which is that the Pope holds no more authority than any of the other bsihops.

If you are going to say that those who opposed the formula were heretics you are going to have to also say that honorius was a heretic. Either miaphysis is acceptable or both that and miathelis are condemnable. I stand on the side of saying that miaphysis is acceptable. The only way they could be called heretics is by considering it to be heresy to be outside communion with Rome.

I would still like to see the text of Maximus himself if you have it accessible.
 
Of course the heretics, or miaphysites, opposed the formula because it condemned them. It was either communion with Rome or the miaphysites.
First, let’s be clear about the context here. We’re talking about the Chalcedonians. According to the standards of the time, the miaphysites were heretics. And those who wanted to hold communion with the miaphysites were regarded as heretics.
The only pope of the time to have any ecumenical sense was Anastasius (Pope from 492 to 496).
Sure, according to modern standards, but according to the standards of the time, Pope St. Anastasius was no hero. He had the peace of the Church in mind, which is praiseworthy in itself. Of course, he never actually gave in to the Henoticon. At best, he restored a deacon in Thessalonica who was deposed for Monophysitism (no one complained that the Pope could do this, BTW).
The only ones who conedmned the henoticon were the bishops of the west who were disregarded by communion with the miaphysites.
That is untrue. There were many Eastern bishops throughout the whole episode (about 50 years) who sided with Rome.
My point is that just because some of the bishops signed the formula doesn’t make it authoritative.
According to Italian secular historian Claudio Rendina, about 2,500 bishops signed the Formula.
The only thing that came of it was communion with Rome and the west rather than the monophysites.
According to the standards of the time, what came of it was a victory for orthodoxy.
It holds no more authority than the henoticon, which means that it holds none.
And there’s the utter inconsistency of EO rhetoric on the matter. A totally orthodox formula (of Hormisdas) is given the same weight as a formula (the Henoticon) they admit is heretical.
Rome has developed a doctrine that isn’t present in the early Church anywhere except maybe in Rome itself. It is a doctrine that Rome has continually attempted to force on the rest of the Church. The Eastern Orthodox take the position of the Greek fathers which is that the Pope holds no more authority than any of the other bsihops.
So why did the Corinthians submit to Pope St. Clement? Why did St. Cyprian plead to the bishop of Rome to discipline certain bishops in Gaul and Spain? Why did Pope St. Dionysius of Alexandria accept the correction of Pope St. Dionysius of Rome? Why did St. Basil plead to Pope St. Damasus to heal the schism in Antioch, and that he would only hold communion with the ones with whom Pope St. Damasus held communion? Why did Pope St. Athanasius admit at the Council of Sardica that the bishop of Rome has universal appellate authority? Why did Pope St. Cyril defer to Pope St. Celestine in the matters about which the Third Ecumenical Council met? Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. The bishop of Rome’s authority is not based on power, but on orthodoxy - which again demonstrates the utter inconsistency of modern EO apologists who put the Henoticon (a heterodox formula) on an equal par with the Formula of Hormisdas (a totally orthodox formula).
If you are going to say that those who opposed the formula were heretics you are going to have to also say that honorius was a heretic.
Pope Honorius was a heretic (it’s just that we don’t agree on the reasons).
Either miaphysis is acceptable or both that and miathelis are condemnable. I stand on the side of saying that miaphysis is acceptable.
You’re speaking to the choir.😃
The only way they could be called heretics is by considering it to be heresy to be outside communion with Rome.
Like I said, we need to investigate this according to the standards of the Chalcedonians, and according to the standards of the time the Henoticon and the Formula were written.
I would still like to see the text of Maximus himself if you have it accessible.
Eventually.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Jimmy,

I have not found the quote yet, but here are some things that might help you out if you want more information:

There is the article on St. Maximos from the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/10078b.htm), which provides several other great quotes from the Confessor regarding the issue with Honorius.

Here is a generally good summary from the first English translation of several of St. Maximos works [Pauline Allen & Bronwen Neil, *Maximus the Confessor and His Companions (University Press, 2002)]. Note that it gives the actual citation for St. Maximos’ defense of Honorius:

A comprehensive account of his Christology has been offered by Bausenhart, and we will attempt but a brief summary of Maximus’ principal arguments against the doctrine of one will. While Maximus was concerned to defend Honorius against charges of personal heresy, he criticized the Constantinopolitan interpretation of the pope’s formulation of ‘one will in Christ’ as diminishing the Incarnate Word and limiting his saving activity: Honorius’ definition referred only to the humanity of Christ, he argued (Dispute with Pyrrhus, PG 91. 328ci-332A3).

I stated “generally good summary” because there are some parts which are objectionable. For instance, the authors give this comment:

“Sergius reported these developments to the bishop of Rome, Honorius (625—38) (CPG 7606). Demonstrating a spectacular lack of awareness of the theological issues at stake, Honorius replied with a letter of congratulations (CPG 9375) for obtaining theological agreement in the eastern churches. This letter contained the infamous statement of what was to become the heretical doctrine of mono-thelitism: a confession of’the one will of our Lord Jesus Christ’. Thus the pope was later credited as the inventor of the heretical doctrine.”

This is such a twisted and skeletal interpretation of the events from an otherwise scholarly book (the Ecumenical Council itself never charged Honorius as being the originator of these doctrines, unlike others in their list of Monothelites). From the reviews, it has an ample EO readership. It is not hard to imagine that some future generation of EO will imbibe these obvious lies, (as if the current generation has not already imbibed enough lies about the Catholic Church) and start arguing that Honorius was the actual source of the monothelite heresy. It makes one want to give up in disgust. But it is the Spirit who strengthens, and since we know that it is Christ’s will to have unity, Catholic apologists will continue to battle these lies.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Ooooo, POpe Honorius,

Did he teach heresy or not? I admit my opinion on the subject doesn’t matter greatly. I will say this, there are many past and present Roman apologists who downplay the importance of Pope Honorius.

It is typical in Roman Catholic writings to find the issue of Honorius dealt with in a very superficial way. For example the following comments by Karl Keating are representative:

“Actually, Honorius elected to teach nothing at all. Ronald Knox, in a letter to Arnold Lunn reprinted in their book Difficulties, put the matter like this: And Honorius, so far from pronouncing an infallible opinion in the Monothelite controversy, was quite extraordinarily not (as Gore used to say) pronouncing a decision at all. To the best of his human wisdom, he thought the controversy ought to be left unsettled, for the greater peace of the Church. In fact, he was an opportunist. We, wise after the event, say that he was wrong. But nobody, I think, has ever claimed that the Pope is infallible in not defining a doctrine” (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 229).

In one paragraph Keating dismisses this whole issue as trivial and Orthodox and protestant objections as nothing more than a misrepresentation of the true facts. But one thing Mr. Keating does not do is to give the judgment of the Council itself in its own words. He simply states that Honorius did not teach anything and is therefore not guilty of heresy. Is this how the Council understood the situation? Absolutely not! To allow the Council to speak for itself is enough to dispel Keating and Knox’s assertions. The facts speak for themselves. Honorius was personally condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council. This was ratified by two succeeding Ecumenical Councils. He was also condemned by name by Pope Leo II, and by every pope up through the eleventh century who took the oath of papal office. In his classic and authoritative series on the history of the Councils, Roman Catholic historian Charles Joseph Hefele affirms this verdict in relating the following irrefutable facts regarding Honorius and the Sixth Ecumenical Council:

"It is in the highest degree startling, even scarcely credible, that an Ecumenical Council should punish with anathema a Pope as a heretic!..That, however, the sixth Ecumenical Synod actually condemned Honorius on account of heresy, is clear beyond all doubt, when we consider the following collection of the sentences of the Synod against him:
At the entrance of the thirteenth session, on March 28, 681, the Synod says:

“After reading the doctrinal letter of Sergius of Constantinople to Cyrus of Phasis (afterwards of Alexandria) and to Pope Honorius, and also the letter of the latter to Sergius, we found that these documents were quite foreign…to the apostolic doctrines, and to the declarations of the holy Councils and all the Fathers of note, and follow the false doctrines of heretics. Therefore we reject them completely, and abhor…them as hurtful to the soul. But also the names of these men must be thrust out of the Church, namely, that of Sergius, the first who wrote on this impious doctrine. Further, that of Cyrus of Alexandria, of Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter of Constantinople, and of Theodore of Pharan, all of whom also Pope Agatho rejected in his letter to the Emperor. We punish them all with anathema. But along with them, it is our universal decision that there shall also be shut out from the Church and anathematized the former Pope Honorius of Old Rome, because we found in his letter to Sergius, that in everything he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrine.”
 
Still more important is that which took place at the eighteenth and last session, on September 16, 681. In the decree of the faith which was now published, and forms the principal document of the Synod, we read:

“The creeds (of the earlier Ecumenical Synods) would have sufficed for knowledge and confirmation of the orthodox faith. Because, however, the originator of all evil still always finds a helping serpent, by which he may diffuse his poison, and therewith finds fit tools for his will, we mean Theodore of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Peter, former bishops of Constantinople, also Honorius, Pope of Old Rome, Cyrus of Alexandria, etc., so he failed not, by them, to cause trouble in the Church by the scattering of the heretical doctrine of one will and one energy of the two natures of the one Christ.”

Now comes the Private opinion argument. Honorius at worst was expressing a private opinion to Sergius and while he may have at worst held heretical notions privately he did not announce them as dogmas of faith, right?

However, a careful reading of the official acts of the Council prove that it thought otherwise. The reader can judge for himself from the** Council’s own statements **how the situation with Honorius was viewed and whether it would have agreed with the assertions of Keating and Knox that Honorius did not actively teach anything. The Council makes the following statements:

Session XIII: The holy council said: After we had reconsidered, according to the promise which we had made to your highness, the doctrinal letters of Sergius, at one time patriarch of this royal God protected city to Cyrus, who was then bishop of Phasius and to Honorius some time Pope of Old Rome, as well as the letter of the latter to the same Sergius, we find that these documents are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics; therefore we entirely reject them, and execrate them as hurtful to the soul. But the names of those men whose doctrines we execrate must also be thrust forth from the holy Church of God, namely, that of Sergius some time bishop of this God-preserved royal city who was the first to write on this impious doctrine; also that of Cyrus of Alexandria, of Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, who died bishops of this God preserved city, and were like minded with them; and that of Theodore sometime bishop of Pharan, all of whom the most holy and thrice blessed Agatho, Pope of Old Rome, in his suggestion to our most pious and God preserved lord and mighty Emperor, rejected, because they were minded contrary to our orthodox faith, all of whom we define are to be subject to anathema. And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and **anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines./B]
Session XVI: To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema! To Sergius, the heretic, anathema! To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema! To Honorius, the heretic, anathema! To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema! To Paul, the heretic, anathema!..
Session XVIII: But as the author of evil, who, in the beginning, availed himself of the aid of the serpent, and by it brought the poison of death upon the human race, has not desisted, but in like manner now, having found suitable instruments for working out his will we mean Theodorus, who was bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus…and moreover, Honorius, who was Pope of the elder Rome…), has actively employed them in raising up for the whole Church the stumbling blocks of one will and one operation in the two natures of Christ our true God, one of the Holy Trinity; thus disseminating, in novel terms, amongst the orthodox people, an heresy similar to the mad and wicked doctrine of the impious Apollinaris (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, The Seven Ecumenical Councils, pp. 342-344).

The above statements prove that the condemnation of Honorius meets the basic criteria for ex cathedra statements. The following show this to be the case:

The Council condemns him specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his official capacity as pope and not as a private theologian.
He is condemned for following after and confirming the heresy of montheletism.
He is condemned for actively disseminating and propagating heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.

To suggest that the Sixth Ecumenical Council does not invalidate the teaching of papal infallibility because Honorius did not make an ex cathedra statement is historically absurd. ***This is to erect arbitrary conditions which were not existent at the time to save oneself the embarrassment of a historical fact which undermines one’s position. *The issue is not what do individual Roman Catholic apologists say, but what did the Sixth Ecumenical Council say. On what basis did it condemn Pope Honorius? By its own words it condemned him in his official capacity as the bishop of Rome, not as a private theologian, for advancing heretical teachings which it says were Satanically inspired and would affect the entire Church. It specifically states that Honorius advanced these teachings, approved of them, and in a positive sense was responsible for disseminating them. And it condemns him by name as a heretic, anathematizing him as such. According to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox theology an Ecumenical Council is infallible so all the arguments which attempt to dismiss the judgment of this Council saying that it was mistaken or that it rushed to judgment or whatever, are simply erroneous and empty, on the basis of their own theology.
 
And what is your point? You still haven’t demonstrated that Pope Honorius taught it publicly to the Church. None of the words of the Council states that. He certainly helped it spread by not stamping it out definitively when it was before him, but there’s nothing in what you have written that states Honorius taught it publicly.

Why do you focus only on the final acts of the Council? Why don’t you look at the first few sessions? You will discover that when the Council was convened to deal with the heresy, POPE HONORIUS’ NAME WAS NOT ON THE ORIGINAL LIST. That should tell you right away that Honorius never taught it publicly, and that is why not one of the MULTITUDE of bishops knew any better. It was only after the Monothelites brought out Honorius’ letter to Sergius in self-defense that anyone at the Council even knew of Honorius’ involvement in the matter. His supposed monothelitism was contained in the contents of some private letters to another individual. He never taught it. PERIOD.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. That’s it from me on this point. I don’t want to hijack this thread any further.
 
Session XIII: The holy council said: After we had reconsidered, according to the promise which we had made to your highness, the doctrinal letters of Sergius, at one time patriarch of this royal God protected city to Cyrus, who was then bishop of Phasius and to Honorius some time Pope of Old Rome, as well as the letter of the latter to the same Sergius, we find that these documents are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics; therefore we entirely reject them, and execrate them as hurtful to the soul. But the names of those men whose doctrines we execrate must also be thrust forth from the holy Church of God, namely, that of Sergius some time bishop of this God-preserved royal city who was the first to write on this impious doctrine; also that of Cyrus of Alexandria, of Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, who died bishops of this God preserved city, and were like minded with them; and that of Theodore sometime bishop of Pharan, all of whom the most holy and thrice blessed Agatho, Pope of Old Rome, in his suggestion to our most pious and God preserved lord and mighty Emperor, rejected, because they were minded contrary to our orthodox faith, all of whom we define are to be subject to anathema. And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and **anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines./**B]
Session XVI: To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema! To Sergius, the heretic, anathema! To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema! To Honorius, the heretic, anathema! To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema! To Paul, the heretic, anathema!..
Session XVIII: But as the author of evil, who, in the beginning, availed himself of the aid of the serpent, and by it brought the poison of death upon the human race, has not desisted, but in like manner now, having found suitable instruments for working out his will we mean Theodorus, who was bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus…and moreover, Honorius, who was Pope of the elder Rome…), has actively employed them in raising up for the whole Church the stumbling blocks of one will and one operation in the two natures of Christ our true God, one of the Holy Trinity; thus disseminating, in novel terms, amongst the orthodox people, an heresy similar to the mad and wicked doctrine of the impious Apollinaris (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, The Seven Ecumenical Councils, pp. 342-344).

The above statements prove that the condemnation of Honorius meets the basic criteria for ex cathedra statements. The following show this to be the case:

The Council condemns him specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his official capacity as pope and not as a private theologian.
He is condemned for following after and confirming the heresy of montheletism.
He is condemned for actively disseminating and propagating heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.

To suggest that the Sixth Ecumenical Council does not invalidate the teaching of papal infallibility because Honorius did not make an ex cathedra statement is historically absurd. ***This is to erect arbitrary conditions which were not existent at the time to save oneself the embarrassment of a historical fact which undermines one’s position. ***The issue is not what do individual Roman Catholic apologists say, but what did the Sixth Ecumenical Council say. On what basis did it condemn Pope Honorius? By its own words it condemned him in his official capacity as the bishop of Rome, not as a private theologian, for advancing heretical teachings which it says were Satanically inspired and would affect the entire Church. It specifically states that Honorius advanced these teachings, approved of them, and in a positive sense was responsible for disseminating them. And it condemns him by name as a heretic, anathematizing him as such. According to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox theology an Ecumenical Council is infallible so all the arguments which attempt to dismiss the judgment of this Council saying that it was mistaken or that it rushed to judgment or whatever, are simply erroneous and empty, on the basis of their own theology.

What I see is a private letter written to a individual that only comes into question. Papal Infallibilty has certain criteria to be met. In order for an infallible statement to be made one of the criteria for infallibility is it must be binding on all Christians to uphold and believe. This only comes from the Pope making an official declaration to all the faithful. Now as for Honorius, his private letter is brought up by heretics at the Council. What is the Council to do other than condemn Honorius as a heretic, not because he taught it publicly, but because he believed it materially. The reason for the Council to do this is because people in the Church are using Pope Honorius’ writings as evidence for their beliefs, thus the use of the word “disseminating,” because his personal thoughts were spreading through heretics as a defense for their beliefs. Where do you see Honorius making a public declaration of this heresy? Nowhere!
 
Whoa Trigger, Honorius reigned 13 years. DO you know everything that occured during his pontificate? And it is a bit of a mistake to try to apply dogmatics from the First vatican council to 7th century Rome.
  1. A dogmatic decree is not binding until it goes into effect.
  2. The conditions for an ex cathedra statement were only defined in 1870
  3. Therefore there have been no true ex cathedra statements by a Pope until 1870.
  4. Meaning that this is the first time a Pope would FORMALLY be speaking infallibly
  5. Which means that there were no formally infallible Papal definitions until 1870
  6. Which means that this is a novelty in the Church
  7. If it is a novelty, then on what basis does it adhere to tradition? Where do the Fathers teach the Teachings of Pius IX?: Ex Cathedra, only on matters of Faith and Morals, and papal infallibility in general. I defy you to find a single father in the entire first 10 centuries of the church who EVER held this notion, not even its POPES. Find me ONE and I will convert.
  8. Meaning Honorious’s Heresy is just as serious as ever.
    TO meet you on your own ground with your own definitiosn: The condemnation of Honorius meets the basic criteria for ex cathedra statements. The following points show this to be the case:
The Council condemns him specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his **official capacity as pope **and **not **as a private theologian.

He is condemned for following after and **confirming **the heresy of montheletism.

He is condemned for ***actively disseminating and propagating ***heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.

However you cannot seriously apply these late innovations to the 7th century. I think that you amke a big mistake to try and fit the early church in a 19th century papal frame.
 
Declaring a saint by a Pope is an Infallible act, so its not a novelty

Infallibility does not mean that a pope is incapable of sin. All popes are human and therefore sinners.

Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired. Papal infallibility does not involve any special revelation from God. A pope learns about his faith in the same way that anyone else does–he studies.

Infallibility cannot be used to change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. It can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

Infallibility does not mean that a pope cannot err when he speaks as a private teacher. As a man he is fallible and capable of error.

Infallibility does not guarantee that a pope will officially teach anything. However, when he does teach he is protected. If he decides to teach the truth, the Holy Spirit allows it. If he decides to teach error, either knowingly or unknowingly, the Holy Spirit will stop him.

** Infallibility is not something that endows a pope with divine powers, but rather it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from the human frailties of a pope.
**

staycatholic.com/papal_infalibillity.htm
Whoa Trigger, Honorius reigned 13 years. DO you know everything that occured during his pontificate? And it is a bit of a mistake to try to apply dogmatics from the First vatican council to 7th century Rome.
  1. A dogmatic decree is not binding until it goes into effect.
  2. The conditions for an ex cathedra statement were only defined in 1870
  3. Therefore there have been no true ex cathedra statements by a Pope until 1870.
  4. Meaning that this is the first time a Pope would FORMALLY be speaking infallibly
  5. Which means that there were no formally infallible Papal definitions until 1870
  6. Which means that this is a novelty in the Church
  7. If it is a novelty, then on what basis does it adhere to tradition? Where do the Fathers teach the Teachings of Pius IX?: Ex Cathedra, only on matters of Faith and Morals, and papal infallibility in general. I defy you to find a single father in the entire first 10 centuries of the church who EVER held this notion, not even its POPES. Find me ONE and I will convert.
  8. Meaning Honorious’s Heresy is just as serious as ever.
    TO meet you on your own ground with your own definitiosn: The condemnation of Honorius meets the basic criteria for ex cathedra statements. The following points show this to be the case:
The Council condemns him specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his **official capacity as pope **and **not **as a private theologian.

He is condemned for following after and **confirming **the heresy of montheletism.

He is condemned for ***actively disseminating and propagating ***heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.

However you cannot seriously apply these late innovations to the 7th century. I think that you amke a big mistake to try and fit the early church in a 19th century papal frame.
 
Whoa Trigger, Honorius reigned 13 years. DO you know everything that occured during his pontificate? And it is a bit of a mistake to try to apply dogmatics from the First vatican council to 7th century Rome.
  1. A dogmatic decree is not binding until it goes into effect.
  2. The conditions for an ex cathedra statement were only defined in 1870
  3. Therefore there have been no true ex cathedra statements by a Pope until 1870.
  4. Meaning that this is the first time a Pope would FORMALLY be speaking infallibly
  5. Which means that there were no formally infallible Papal definitions until 1870
  6. Which means that this is a novelty in the Church
  7. If it is a novelty, then on what basis does it adhere to tradition? Where do the Fathers teach the Teachings of Pius IX?: Ex Cathedra, only on matters of Faith and Morals, and papal infallibility in general. I defy you to find a single father in the entire first 10 centuries of the church who EVER held this notion, not even its POPES. Find me ONE and I will convert.
  8. Meaning Honorious’s Heresy is just as serious as ever.
    TO meet you on your own ground with your own definitiosn: The condemnation of Honorius meets the basic criteria for ex cathedra statements. The following points show this to be the case:
The Council condemns him specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his **official capacity as pope **and **not **as a private theologian.

He is condemned for following after and **confirming **the heresy of montheletism.

He is condemned for ***actively disseminating and propagating ***heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.

However you cannot seriously apply these late innovations to the 7th century. I think that you amke a big mistake to try and fit the early church in a 19th century papal frame.
Concerning points 2-4, the Catholics do hold the 1854 statement of the Immaculate Conception as an infallible declaration.
 
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