Eastern Catholic View of Fatima?

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crazzeto said:
I’m well aware of the development of the Psalster, and even the relationship it has to the Rosary. The Church teaches that the Rosary was given to St. Dominc however, and it is in this spirit that Father will ask you to pray the rosary.
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Yep, weve discussed this here extensively. True we know St Dominic was a devote follower of the Rosary. And spread the word to the point where that victory alone is considered a miracle through the following he brought about.

Yet the exact date being proven historically is still unknown. I believe in St Dominic also. But if you really research it. You base your belief on just that. No actual facts. Yet it came from right around this period [as it is today]. So in my opinion its just a matter of time to be historically linked to Dominic. There is no one else dated before Dominic who can historically date The Holy Rosary as it is today either, at least not yet. Which alone gives credabilty to Dominic. Again I ho with my feeling about many aspects of faith. And get a distinct feeling about St Dominic for sure.
 
crazzeto said:
I think what Steve is pointing out that one can derive this based upon the strength of your own faith in Christ and his Bride. For him, he doesn’t need the apperitions to teach these truths. I would submit, the prophisies they contain are still useful regardless, but he is free not to integrate the teachings into his life.

That said, it will be dificult to do so. For instance when you receive a rosary as penance you are integrating a Marian apperition into your faith life.
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Yes, you understood me correctly. However, I don’t find it particularly difficult. I wear a scapular and pray the rosary, but in all honesty I don’t believe S. Simon Stock received the scapular nor do I believe S. Dominic received the rosary. Both have clear historical antecedents in the Church. That a folk religious story attached itself to them is irrelevant. They are valuable because they focus our attention where they should be: on Christ, and on His Blessed Mother who intercedes to Him on our behalf. Consider: would a rosary be less spiritually useful if it had developed organically and didn’t come direct from the BVM? Even if she did give it direct to S. Dominic it is, as I’ve said, simply irrelevant to my spiritual life. If the Mother of God appears to me directly, however, that’s obviously another matter!
 
GaryTaylor said:
I hear what you saying. And God Bless you, I think its fantastic you found Jesus Christ. And I don’t disagee with the idea, or reality is a better word, that you without a doubt can become deeply rooted in faith without the apparitions.

I see things slightly different due to my own experiences in life. Yet what brings one follower to God, or the next, very well may be completely different. Nothing right or wrong about it, it just is.

I’m a skeptical person by nature, so as far just looking at all the apparitions? I have reservations about some I suppose like anyone. I look at Medijugorie and whats been going there the past four years, and I find it a much more difficult to fully accept. Yet I’ve studied Fatima and Cairio Egypt Zeitoun and get a very different feeling about it. I not only believe it, I feel it. And a few of the others I also do.

Many of the apparitions happened very different also. Well, I’m sure you already know some are private revelations, others are very public and witnessed by thousands, and a few coincide with miracles as well as the apparitions.

As far as pin pointing when and of what year they refer to, etc. Thats a totally different thought. Though its hard to disagee with the situation on earth being tragic today.

Yet I have family, matter of fact my mother went to medijugorie and was deeply moved by the experienece there. I haven’t been there. Maybe if I had went I would feel differently I can’t honestly say.

I tend to follow my own feeling with these though. I was just reading about the apparitions of Our Lady of the USA in Indiana from the mid-50’s. Now for some reason I find those very believeable. While I feel that way about Indiana, and have trouble with others, I don’t know. But when your inner voice is telling you something, you have to listen also.

Yet my over all impression has been favorable and they have as a whole increased my awareness of the Blessed Mothers significance today. I was praying the rosary daily before I studied the apparitions. Yet I still believe they have only served to confirm my better thinking.

What do you think/feel about Medijugrie and the private revelations coming to those specific few women in from of the following?
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A woman at my parish is the sister of a Croatian Franciscan who worked in Medjugorje for some years. He visits our parish occasionally. I’ve spoken to him about it, and his stories are enough to convince me the entire thing is, at best, a fraud.
 
crazzeto said:
Apperitions and miricles (such as Eucharistic miricles) are more for those who’s faith has been weaked due to some circomstance. In Fatima there was a secular government trying to stamp out the Church ah-la Russia. Fatima helped prevent this at that time, more over it warned us about WWII as well as one last prophesy which the current pontiff does not beleive has yet been fulfilled.
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I won’t disagree with this. I’ve had the same thought - it’s the only one that makes sense to me that also preserves the reality of the apparitions.
 
Vico said:
The Vatican approved list, from my research:
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This page identies all the approved Marian apparitions.

**Not Investigated - Traditional Approval **
  • Zaragoza, Spain (40)
  • Alexandria, Egypt (305)
  • Rome, Italy (352)
  • Covadonga, Spain (722)
  • Barcelona, Italy (1218)
  • Aylesford, England (1251)
  • Cacerces, Spain (1326)
  • Brescia, Italy (1464)
  • Liguria, Italy (1490)
  • Garaison, France (1515)
  • Ocotlan, Mexico (1541)
  • Vailankanni, India (1550)
  • Castellazzo, Italy (1720)
  • La Vang, Vietnam (1798)
  • Lichen, Poland (1813, 1850)
  • Pompeii, Italy (1884)
  • Dong Lu, China (1900, 1995)
Vatican Approval (after Investigation and Approval by Local Bishop)
  • Guadalupe, Mexico (1531)
  • Quito, Ecuador (1594)
  • Siluva, Lithuania (1608)
  • Laus, France (1664)
  • Rue du Bac, France (1830)
  • Rome, Italy (1842)
  • La Salette, France (1846)
  • Lourdes, France (1858)
  • Pontmain, France (1871)
  • Gietrzwald, Poland (1877)
  • Knock, Ireland (1879)
  • Castelpetroso, Italy (1888)
  • Fatima, Portugal (1917)
  • Beauraing, Belgium (1932)
  • Banneaux, Belgium (1933)
  • Kibeho, Rwanda (1981)
**Investigated and Approved - Local Bishop **
  • Amsterdam, Netherlands (1945)
  • Akita, Japan (1973)
  • Betania, Venezuela (1976)
  • Cuapa, Nicaragua (1980)
  • San Nicolas, Argentina (1983)
**Investigated and Approved - Coptic Orthodox **
  • Zeitun, Egypt (1968)
  • Shoubra, Egypt (1986)
  • Assuit, Egypt (2000)
  • Warraq el-Hadar, Egypt (2009)
Investigated - No Decision (Approval of Faith Expression)
  • Saint Bauzille, France (1873)
  • Pellevoisin, France (1873)
  • Heede, Germany (1937)
  • Wangen/Wigratzbad, Germany (1938)
  • La Codosera, Spain (1945)
  • Marienfried, Germany (1946)
  • L’ile-Bouchard, France (1947)
  • Trefontane, Italy (1947)
  • Lipa, Phillipines (1948
  • Ngome, South Africa (1955)
  • Fostoria, OH USA (1956)
  • San Vittorino Roman, Italy (1964)
  • Cefala Diana, Italy (1967)
miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/index.html
 
StevenDunn said:
A woman at my parish is the sister of a Croatian Franciscan who worked in Medjugorje for some years. He visits our parish occasionally. I’ve spoken to him about it, and his stories are enough to convince me the entire thing is, at best, a fraud.
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I’ve read Wayne Weible’s books, “The Message” and “The Mission” as well as watched some documentaries on it Medjugorje. A friend of mine has gone a few times, and has told me of several miracles that have happened to people due to prayer intentions while she was there. She also told me of a slight miracle that happened to her mother while there. For me, I believe it to be true. I guess these events can affect everyone differently as another poster has mentioned previously.
 
Vico said:
The Vatican approved list, from my research:
1 Guadalupe, Mexico (1531)
2 Quito, Ecuador (1594)
**3 Siluva, Lithuania (1608) **
4 Laus, France (1664)
5 Rue du Bac, Paris, France (1830)
6 Rome, Italy (1842)
7 La Salette, France (1846)
8 Lourdes, France (1858)
9 Pontmain, France (1871)
10 Gietrzwald, Poland (1877)
11 Knock, Ireland (1879)
12 Naples, Italy (1884)
13 Castelpetroso, Italy (1888)
14 Fatima, Portugal (1917)
15 Beauraing, Belgium (1932)
16 Banneux, Belgium (1933)
17 Kibeho, Rwanda (1981)
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Stylites said:
This page identies all the approved Marian apparitions.

**Not Investigated - Traditional Approval **
  • Zaragoza, Spain (40)
  • Alexandria, Egypt (305)
  • Rome, Italy (352)
  • Covadonga, Spain (722)
  • Barcelona, Italy (1218)
  • Aylesford, England (1251)
  • Cacerces, Spain (1326)
  • Brescia, Italy (1464)
  • Liguria, Italy (1490)
  • Garaison, France (1515)
  • Ocotlan, Mexico (1541)
  • Vailankanni, India (1550)
  • Castellazzo, Italy (1720)
  • La Vang, Vietnam (1798)
  • Lichen, Poland (1813, 1850)
  • Pompeii, Italy (1884)
  • Dong Lu, China (1900, 1995)
Vatican Approval (after Investigation and Approval by Local Bishop)
  • Guadalupe, Mexico (1531)
  • Quito, Ecuador (1594)
  • Siluva, Lithuania (1608)
  • Laus, France (1664)
  • Rue du Bac, France (1830)
  • Rome, Italy (1842)
  • La Salette, France (1846)
  • Lourdes, France (1858)
  • Pontmain, France (1871)
  • Gietrzwald, Poland (1877)
  • Knock, Ireland (1879)
  • Castelpetroso, Italy (1888)
  • Fatima, Portugal (1917)
  • Beauraing, Belgium (1932)
  • Banneaux, Belgium (1933)
  • Kibeho, Rwanda (1981)
**Investigated and Approved - Local Bishop **
  • Amsterdam, Netherlands (1945)
  • Akita, Japan (1973)
  • Betania, Venezuela (1976)
  • Cuapa, Nicaragua (1980)
  • San Nicolas, Argentina (1983)
**Investigated and Approved - Coptic Orthodox **
  • Zeitun, Egypt (1968)
  • Shoubra, Egypt (1986)
  • Assuit, Egypt (2000)
  • Warraq el-Hadar, Egypt (2009)
Investigated - No Decision (Approval of Faith Expression)
  • Saint Bauzille, France (1873)
  • Pellevoisin, France (1873)
  • Heede, Germany (1937)
  • Wangen/Wigratzbad, Germany (1938)
  • La Codosera, Spain (1945)
  • Marienfried, Germany (1946)
  • L’ile-Bouchard, France (1947)
  • Trefontane, Italy (1947)
  • Lipa, Phillipines (1948
  • Ngome, South Africa (1955)
  • Fostoria, OH USA (1956)
  • San Vittorino Roman, Italy (1964)
  • Cefala Diana, Italy (1967)
miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/index.html
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Absent from both lists is Akita, Japan in 1973, approved in the '80s.
 
Vico said:
Oh, I see Akita, under Investigated and Approved - Local Bishop. The list I posted is only those that are Vatican approved.
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Oops, maybe I missed it, but according to EWTN at least,
June, 1988—Vatican City—Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.
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JAGCath28 said:
I’ve read Wayne Weible’s books, “The Message” and “The Mission” as well as watched some documentaries on it Medjugorje. A friend of mine has gone a few times, and has told me of several miracles that have happened to people due to prayer intentions while she was there. She also told me of a slight miracle that happened to her mother while there. For me, I believe it to be true. I guess these events can affect everyone differently as another poster has mentioned previously.
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I’m not doubting people have had positive experiences there - maybe even miracles. God will work His grace wherever He can. But that’s not the entire story. What about the systemic disobedience shown to the local ordinary? What about the scandalous life of the seers’ priest? What about the lack of vocations? What about the strong-armed attempts by the Franciscans to shut down all local opposition? These are all huge red flags, and why even now the Vatican has not approved the site(to say nothing of the questionable content of the messages themselves).

And this raises another question: why are people still visiting Medjugorje when it’s been called into question by the Vatican itself? This is the real problem I have with the widespread obsession with apparitions I see among fellow Catholics: they start to put more faith in the apparitions than in the Church itself, even to the point of disobedience to the Church. I’m reminded of a “seer” in, I think, Texas in the 1980s who claimed something apocalyptic was going to happen. The local bishops and presbytery were opposed, and told their congregations not to go. Sure enough, lots of people went. Nothing happened.

Nothing from God will lead us into spiritual conflict with the appointed leaders of the Church.
 
crazzeto said:
I’m well aware of the development of the Psalster, and even the relationship it has to the Rosary. The Church teaches that the Rosary was given to St. Dominc however, and it is in this spirit that Father will ask you to pray the rosary.
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Let’s see what the Catechism says about this.
2678 Medieval piety in the West developed the prayer of the rosary as a popular substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours. In the East, the litany called the Akathistos and the Paraclesis remained closer to the choral office in the Byzantine churches, while the Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac traditions preferred popular hymns and songs to the Mother of God. But in the Ave Maria, the theotokia, the hymns of St. Ephrem or St. Gregory of Narek, the tradition of prayer is basically the same.
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This is a far cry from saying the rosary was given to St. Dominic.

ChadS
 
ChadS said:
Let’s see what the Catechism says about this.

This is a far cry from saying the rosary was given to St. Dominic.

ChadS
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Indeed, your citation doesn’t address where the rosary came from at all…
 
StevenDunn said:
I’m not doubting people have had positive experiences there - maybe even miracles. God will work His grace wherever He can. But that’s not the entire story. What about the systemic disobedience shown to the local ordinary? What about the scandalous life of the seers’ priest? What about the lack of vocations? What about the strong-armed attempts by the Franciscans to shut down all local opposition? These are all huge red flags, and why even now the Vatican has not approved the site(to say nothing of the questionable content of the messages themselves).

And this raises another question: why are people still visiting Medjugorje when it’s been called into question by the Vatican itself? This is the real problem I have with the widespread obsession with apparitions I see among fellow Catholics: they start to put more faith in the apparitions than in the Church itself, even to the point of disobedience to the Church. I’m reminded of a “seer” in, I think, Texas in the 1980s who claimed something apocalyptic was going to happen. The local bishops and presbytery were opposed, and told their congregations not to go. Sure enough, lots of people went. Nothing happened.

Nothing from God will lead us into spiritual conflict with the appointed leaders of the Church.
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I pray the rosay daily and have been, I follow the apparitions of Our Lady also and have been.

I read and research various apparitions an just get a distinct feeling about whats said, how its said. and what is being talked about. And I can’t deny that I get a wonderfull feeling from the better part of the apparitions.

Thats said, I just don’t get this feeling about Medjugorje. Now I haven’t been there either, and have spoken to and know a few including family, who have been there. They are also in agreement that with what is going on there, and not with me. And I may very well be wrong.

Yet for some reason, I don’t know why, I just have a hard time coming to accept Medugorje.

Anyway God Bless, GT

As far as sights like Fatima, Zeitoun, Akita, Mexico, etc. These to name a few are just no-brainers. I have trouble understanding how you could not believe them. I think it goes more like you choose not to believe without really looking at these miracles with an open mind. Sort of like the same thinking that is with those who would say the US never went to the moon.

Yet there are those who chose to discredit that which they really have nothing to base that opinion on. In particular when thousands have withnessed an apparition and then it was confirmed with miracles? Yes, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could reach a conclusion on non-elief. J
 
Hesychios said:
There was a Marian apparition in Zaragoza in the year 40 AD ?
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Apostle James the Greater saw Mary in the flesh on a pillar, carried by angels, calling him to return to Jerusalem. There have been miraculous healings since, in Zaragoza.
 
crazzeto said:
Indeed, your citation doesn’t address where the rosary came from at all…
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You said “the Church says the rosary comes from St. Dominic.” The quote I provided says no such thing. As such I don’t need to “show” where the rosary came from, just that the Church hasn’t claimed it comes from St. Dominic.

ChadS
 
ChadS said:
Let’s see what the Catechism says about this.
This is a far cry from saying the rosary was given to St. Dominic.
ChadS
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The Bollandist view of the history of the Rosary has prevailed. The entry on the Rosary in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (which also cast doubt on the St. Dominic story) was vigorously assailed by those who hewed to the traditional history of the devotion.
 
ChadS said:
You said “the Church says the rosary comes from St. Dominic.” The quote I provided says no such thing. As such I don’t need to “show” where the rosary came from, just that the Church hasn’t claimed it comes from St. Dominic.

ChadS
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Chad,

You’re trying to use this reference in the CCC to prove a teaching on the origin of the Rosary, particularly one that contradicts the St. Dominic tradition… My position is that this entry does not even discuss the origin of the Rosary. In fact this is abundently clear when one looks at the paragraph in context of the rest of the CCC at that point

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c2a2.htm#2678

It’s discussing the hail mary in particular, and Marian devotion in general. No where is the origin of the Rosary discussed, no where in here does it state the church dismisses the St. Dominic tradition in favor a purely “evolutionary” view.

Rather it states exactly what you post, that in the middle ages devotion of the rosary grew in the west. This is not a statement of origin. St. Dominic lived C. 1160 A.D. to 1221… There’s a lot of middle ages after him for devotion to the rosary to grow.
 
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