Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox, Differences

[ByzCathCantor]

Do you mind giving some examples on this?

I’m not a fan of that generalization.

Nor are many critical thinkers, many of whom frequent these types of forums.

At the risk generalizing (and thus contradicting) myself, I do think both approaches, mysticism and scholasticism as exist in varying degrees in both East and West are complementary. One of the joys of being Eastern Catholic is you tend to get more of the former as a “main course”, and less of the latter as “dessert”. This is a balance I prefer, but others may like it the other way around.

That said, it would be helpful if rdorseyhsd could give us some specific examples of observations leading to these hypotheses, so we may address them more directly.

 

[rdorseyhsd]

I do not know if this a sufficient response, but take the idea of purgatory. Once, the Roman Church clearly defined purgatory as fire with a particular number of days for each offense needing cleansing. Now Purgatory may be defined as simply the absence of God. or that the fire for the saved is exhilarating and that for the damned excruciating. The Orthodox say they simply don’t know. At one time the Romans argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. The Orthodox never engaged in this nonsense. One Church says there is one God in three persons, the other says there are three persons in one God (this is beyond me). The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception, do they accept Mary as the Queen of heaven? I believe the Assumption and the Dormition are defined differently. The Romans tend define what God is, the Orthodox as what God is not. Some Orthodox accept the concept of toll houses after death wherein the departed soul passes by demons associated with a particular sin and the demons try to pull that soul down. Not all Orthodox accept this and this is absolutely contrary to the idea of a particular judgment.
A lot of prayers that might be similar to the Eastern concept of Theosis used to appear in the daily office recited by Roman Catholic priests. I do not now see any priest outside a monastery saying the office. The Romans seem to say, if you have sinned you must be punished (penance), the Orthodox seem to say, get up and do better. Guilt is a particularly Roman and Jewish concept.
Perhaps the main difference is emphasis. I’m sure that the concepts of Theosis and Silence exist in the Roman Church, but those concepts are extremely hard to find.
I’m sure there are significant differences between the spirituality of Thomas Aquinas and Metropolitan Ware.
The thing is you see the spiruality in the east and in the west you have to hunt for it.
Enough rambling, I am not a theologian.

 

[dcointin]

There are a few matters of practice that surprised me that I’ve learned from members of this forum as well:

• use of the Roman canon and translations of the Bible
• mandatory Roman divorce and annulment practices
• multiple Divine Liturgies each day at the same altar

I’m sure there are others.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

There are a few matters of practice that surprised me that I’ve learned from members of this forum as well:

• use of the Roman canon and translations of the Bible
• mandatory Roman divorce and annulment practices
• multiple Divine Liturgies each day at the same altar

I’m sure there are others.

Hi Don,

I’ve never heard of any Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church using the Roman Canon. Can you specify which one, or where you heard this from?

As far as multiple Divine Liturgies at the same altar are concerned, I know of a number of Orthodox parishes that do this as well. Daily Divine Liturgy has also been a common practice at least in Orthodox monasteries in the past. I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian encouraged monks to attend the DL daily. If memory serves me correctly, St. Seraphim of Sarov also celebrated a daily DL privately while he was still in his hermitage.

There is no divorce practice for the Roman Church, only annulments. But you are correct, the Eastern and Oriental Churches do follow the Roman practice of annulment. This may be out of character for the Byzantine traditions, but I don’t know how it works for the Orientals. Perhaps the Oriental Orthodox also follow a similar practice of annulment?

We should chat again some time.

Phillip

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

There are a few matters of practice that surprised me that I’ve learned from members of this forum as well:

• use of the Roman canon and translations of the Bible
• mandatory Roman divorce and annulment practices
• multiple Divine Liturgies each day at the same altar

I’m sure there are others.

Use of the Roman Canon? In the Divine Liturgy?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Hi Don,

I’ve never heard of any Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church using the Roman Canon. Can you specify which one, or where you heard this from?

As far as multiple Divine Liturgies at the same altar are concerned, I know of a number of Orthodox parishes that do this as well. Daily Divine Liturgy has also been a common practice at least in Orthodox monasteries in the past. I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian encouraged monks to attend the DL daily. If memory serves me correctly, St. Seraphim of Sarov also celebrated a daily DL privately while he was still in his hermitage.

There is no divorce practice for the Roman Church, only annulments. But you are correct, the Eastern and Oriental Churches do follow the Roman practice of annulment. This may be out of character for the Byzantine traditions, but I don’t know how it works for the Orientals. Perhaps the Oriental Orthodox also follow a similar practice of annulment?

We should chat again some time.

Phillip

I think he meant the Latin biblical canon, not the Roman canon from the mass.

As for multiple liturgies, it is true that some Orthodox parishes do multiple liturgies per day (mine does), but if that is to happen, they still must follow the prescription that different altars must be used and that one priest may only celebrate one liturgy per day (rules which my parish does observe).

 

[Nine_Two]

As far as multiple Divine Liturgies at the same altar are concerned, I know of a number of Orthodox parishes that do this as well. Daily Divine Liturgy has also been a common practice at least in Orthodox monasteries in the past. I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian encouraged monks to attend the DL daily. If memory serves me correctly, St. Seraphim of Sarov also celebrated a daily DL privately while he was still in his hermitage.

Actually the issue is the multiple DL’s per day. There is supposed to only be one. In some cases though, you are right, there are multiple DL’s at the same altar, although in these cases, from what I’ve read (I haven’t been able to personally verify for obvious reasons), multiple antimins are given to the priest, one for each service. Even this is an innovation though.

I’m curious on your source on St. Seraphim of Sarov celebrating private Divine Liturgy, in the Orthodox Church it isn’t considered a proper Divine Liturgy without both a priest and the laity - except that there is a version that can be done without a priest (though without the Eucharist).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Actually the issue is the multiple DL’s per day. There is supposed to only be one. In some cases though, you are right, there are multiple DL’s at the same altar, although in these cases, from what I’ve read (I haven’t been able to personally verify for obvious reasons), multiple antimins are given to the priest, one for each service. Even this is an innovation though.

I’m curious on your source on St. Seraphim of Sarov celebrating private Divine Liturgy, in the Orthodox Church it isn’t considered a proper Divine Liturgy without both a priest and the laity - except that there is a version that can be done without a priest (though without the Eucharist).

Nine_Two - thanks for sharing these thoughts and observations. FWIW, I have been told by multiple EC priests in the Ruthenian Church that most of what you’ve stated above is applicable in our tradition. That is:

• if multiple DLs are a pastoral necessity, separate antimins (antimensia) are used as an oikonomia. Most priests have preferred to offer a vigil Divine Liturgy instead on Saturday evening, but this practice is now being discouraged in favor of promoting Saturday Vespers.
• as a cantor, I have been constantly reminded (jokingly, but accurately) when I alone show up for a weekday DL, that we then at least have the required “quorum” (priest and one lay person). I have always understood that a priest alone cannot perform the Divine Liturgy (which makes intuitive sense, as it is the “work of the people” by definition)

I have never heard of a DL recited without priest / Eucharist. I do know that Matins and Vespers can be done, with certain substitutions of supplications and blessings reserved for the clergy alone.

 

[Vico]

I do not know if this a sufficient response, but take the idea of purgatory. Once, the Roman Church clearly defined purgatory as fire with a particular number of days for each offense needing cleansing… .

I hope you understand this (historically) in the following way:

Indulgences were counted in days or years but did not designate time off of purgatory, rather it meant the remission of temporal punishment analogous to a certain amount of penitence as practiced in the early Church.

 

[dcointin]

Hi Don,

I’ve never heard of any Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church using the Roman Canon. Can you specify which one, or where you heard this from?

As far as multiple Divine Liturgies at the same altar are concerned, I know of a number of Orthodox parishes that do this as well. Daily Divine Liturgy has also been a common practice at least in Orthodox monasteries in the past. I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian encouraged monks to attend the DL daily. If memory serves me correctly, St. Seraphim of Sarov also celebrated a daily DL privately while he was still in his hermitage.

There is no divorce practice for the Roman Church, only annulments. But you are correct, the Eastern and Oriental Churches do follow the Roman practice of annulment. This may be out of character for the Byzantine traditions, but I don’t know how it works for the Orientals. Perhaps the Oriental Orthodox also follow a similar practice of annulment?

We should chat again some time.

Phillip

I would have to find the thread, but I remember someone talking about the canon not long ago. I’ll see if I can find it again!

I don’t mean daily Divine Liturgies, I mean more than one each day on the same altar. Is that a widespread practice in your experience? It’s forbidden in Orthodoxy.

By divorce practice I just mean the whole issue and how it’s approached. I realize this is a moral issue for Catholics so diversity can’t be tolerated, but it is a difference.

PM me some time and let me know when you’re free!

EDIT: I meant the Roman canon of the books of the Bible

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Actually the issue is the multiple DL’s per day. There is supposed to only be one. In some cases though, you are right, there are multiple DL’s at the same altar, although in these cases, from what I’ve read (I haven’t been able to personally verify for obvious reasons), multiple antimins are given to the priest, one for each service. Even this is an innovation though.

I’m curious on your source on St. Seraphim of Sarov celebrating private Divine Liturgy, in the Orthodox Church it isn’t considered a proper Divine Liturgy without both a priest and the laity - except that there is a version that can be done without a priest (though without the Eucharist).

My source for St. Seraphim is Archimandrite Lazarus Moore’s “An Extraordinary Peace: St. Seraphim, Flame of Sarov.” I do confess that I might not be remembering correctly, hence the vagary of my previous comment. I remember it striking me as curious that St. Seraphim could celebrate the DL alone.

I wonder how many parishes that have multiple DLs have two or more different priests to serve them. I know at the local Ruthenian parish the pastor celebrates one of the Liturgies, and a bi-ritual priest celebrates the other. The same goes for the Greek Orthodox parish up the street from me.

My own parish only has one DL on Sunday, preceded by Orthros/Matins, despite the fact that we have three priests (with a fourth on the way) and more than enough deacons to go around.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I think he meant the Latin biblical canon, not the Roman canon from the mass.

As for multiple liturgies, it is true that some Orthodox parishes do multiple liturgies per day (mine does), but if that is to happen, they still must follow the prescription that different altars must be used and that one priest may only celebrate one liturgy per day (rules which my parish does observe).

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I would have to find the thread, but I remember someone talking about the canon not long ago. I’ll see if I can find it again!

I don’t mean daily Divine Liturgies, I mean more than one each day on the same altar. Is that a widespread practice in your experience? It’s forbidden in Orthodoxy.

By divorce practice I just mean the whole issue and how it’s approached. I realize this is a moral issue for Catholics so diversity can’t be tolerated, but it is a difference.

PM me some time and let me know when you’re free!

EDIT: I meant the Roman canon of the books of the Bible

Okay, Roman Canon of the Bible. Gottcha! I thought it strange that some Eastern or Oriental Catholic Churches were using the Roman Canon at the Eucharist.

I know Eastern/Byzantine Catholics use the Roman Canon of the Bible. I’m not sure about the Oriental Churches though. I know the Ge’ez Orthodox have many more books than even the Byzantine Orthodox have. But I don’t know if the Ge’ez Catholics use the same Canon as their Orthodox counterparts. I think it’d be pretty sweet if they did.

It would seem that, although multiple liturgies on the same altar is forbidden in both Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, it is sometimes practiced with the use of separate antimins as an exercise of oiconomia. I can’t remember what the local Greek parish here does. They may actually have two separate altars that they wheel around within the sanctuary between liturgies. It’s been quite some time since I’ve been there.

Divorce and annulments are certainly a complicated issue, even just within Roman Catholicism without including the Eastern and Oriental Catholics. But the Eastern and Oriental Catholics are currently bound by the Roman praxis on annulments. This situation may not be permanent, depending on whether or not the current CCEO is updated or replaced by local Codes. I’m personally not sure how I feel about the differences between the Orthodox practice of divorce vs. the Roman practice of annulments. The more I look into it the more it looks like a bunch of different theological jargon to justify the same outcome. It’s just that one tradition prefers to say a marriage never took place to begin with, while the other says that the Church dissolves the union (unless I am misunderstanding things). But the sad reality is that that which was meant to be sacred, holy, and eternal* has fallen apart.

*I know in the West the vows are “until death do us part,” but a friend of mine pointed out to me that that says nothing about the metaphysical reality of a marriage bond in the next life. It’s simply a vow to “forsake all others” until one of the spouses should die.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I wonder how many parishes that have multiple DLs have two or more different priests to serve them. I know at the local Ruthenian parish the pastor celebrates one of the Liturgies, and a bi-ritual priest celebrates the other. The same goes for the Greek Orthodox parish up the street from me.

My understanding is that this is not a prohibition with respect to the priest, but rather, to the altar. It is highly likely each priest would use the antimension issued to them by the bishop as an oikonomia as to designate a separate altar for worship, albeit in the same church and on the same table (not an altar without an antimension).

When I was a member of our Cathedral parish, it was common that the same priest would serve one of the two morning Divine Liturgies in the Cathedral (but not both, if at all possible) and also the Divine Liturgy at the Chapel (separate building).

My own parish only has one DL on Sunday, preceded by Orthros/Matins, despite the fact that we have three priests (with a fourth on the way) and more than enough deacons to go around.

You parish is truly blessed!

 

[Nine_Two]

In my Parish we have two Divine Liturgies once a month. The priest who does the second one is only marginally involved in the first. He helps out in the altar area during the service, but does not take part in either the Great or Little Entrace, the Eucharist, or even the homily.