Eastern Catholicism and Culture

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What about the UGCC in America? By this thinking then Ukrainians in America should speak and worship in English.

Ukrainian Nationalism might be vital for Ukraine, but is it healthy for the UGCC in America? Most members of the UGCC in America or Canada are no longer Ukrainian Citizens, so how do they celebrate their ethnic heritage while maintaining their American/Canadian identity?
You are correct. It is absurd to demand that the Catholic Church in America try to be anything other than American, despite what people say about America being ‘without a culture’ (and this applies to all other countries of the world as well - e.g. the Church in Brazil should be Brazilian, that in Argentina should be Argentinian, etc.)
I am not from Ukraine, and Ukrainian is not my first language. I deeply love and respect this culture and country, but I cannot pray in that language. How can I, therefore, pray best in a language I do not understand? I’m not saying I cannot pray in it, because I can to a limited extent. But that is not how I express myself best. Therefore, the crux of the matter is the following question: “which is best?” If the answer is that I should be praying in Ukrainian, then either I am being told that I was born in the wrong country, or that I do not belong in this Church. Either way, the argument would be reduced to absurdity.
Fortunately for me, two holy missionaries realized this a long time ago. Their names were Cyril and Methodius!
 
The Ukrainian Catholic who lives in America can be the patriot of America and at the same time to be the patriot of Ukraine.
He is American and at the same time not forgetting that he is Ukrainian as well.
( I say it about the Catholic , I wouldn’t say it about the Menonites , Independent Baptists or Jehovah Witnesser’s . )

-‘ The healthy form of patriotism and nationalism ‘ !
Its not an absence of analytical questionings of what my nation or country does , it does n’t mean to agree with every thing what my nation or country does.
Yes - ‘ The healthy form of nationalism ‘ !
 
Absolutely not, but you were you not alluding that this might be the case when talking about the Evangelicals in Ukraine.
Its so many years since Ukraine has got the political independence and unfortunately not a few leaders of the Christian denominations in their own Ukrainian communities do not see the importance to have the service , prayer , sermons , songs in Ukrainian.
They are Ukrainians who live in Ukraine , members of the Ukrainian Evangelical communities.
The matter would be different if they would be the foreigners .
 
I think some of you are writing past Athanasiy. He is saying that entering the UGCC has made him more appreciative of his heritage and made him more patriotic. (That’s what I get from his posts in this thread.) These are good things, as Chesterton has pointed out.

I am glad that our brother Athanasiy has come to the Church and has learned to appreciate his roots.

Mnohaja Lita!
 
What about the UGCC in America? By this thinking then Ukrainians in America should speak and worship in English.
Actually it doesn’t. Ukrainian parishes are predomintley Ukrainian… there serving Ukrainians and Ukrainian descendents mostly.
Ukrainian Nationalism might be vital for Ukraine, but is it healthy for the UGCC in America?
Why not?
Most members of the UGCC in America or Canada are no longer Ukrainian Citizens, so how do they celebrate their ethnic heritage while maintaining their American/Canadian identity?
“Canadian identity” - now that’s funny. Canada celebrates it’s diverse cultures, and we don’t shy away from fully embracing our culture of origin. There really is no such thing as a “Canadian identity”. If there is, could you tell me what it is?

America… well, can’t say exactly. But I think its important to maintain one’s heritage.
 
It seems like some want to separate Ukraine from the Ukrainian Catholic Church. The OP asked what the purpouse of the Ukrainian Church is? Obviously to save souls, but specifically to reach out to the Ukrainian people. Wasn’t the Ukrainian Church created for Ukrainians? It was suited to their culture and language and then developed in that setting. To take away that culture, language and identity is take away the “Ukrainian” in the “Ukrainian Catholic Church”.
 
I don’t think anyone should take away the culture, but it is a unique situation to have the Ukrainian Church somewhere other than Ukraine especially a place like America with a lot of different cultures (both good and bad).

There was a synod of bishops on the Church in America and John Paul II wrote an Apostolic Exhortation after words where he used the famous “both lungs” phrase. The point was that in places where Eastern and Western churches exist, they should both work in unison for the common mission of the Church.

Disallowing or scorning converts because they are not your ethnicity does not help that. Of course, I don’t think most churches are like that, but it seems to happen in Eastern and Western churches…chalk it up to fallen man.
 
It seems like some want to separate Ukraine from the Ukrainian Catholic Church. The OP asked what the purpouse of the Ukrainian Church is? Obviously to save souls, but specifically to reach out to the Ukrainian people. Wasn’t the Ukrainian Church created for Ukrainians? It was suited to their culture and language and then developed in that setting. To take away that culture, language and identity is take away the “Ukrainian” in the “Ukrainian Catholic Church”.
So what is the purpose of the Roman Catholic Church, and who are they called to specifically reach out to?
 
So what is the purpose of the Roman Catholic Church, and who are they called to specifically reach out to?
I haven’t made myself clear enough. All Churches are called to serve the whole of mankind. Mankind however, is divided amongst the various nations and ethnicities of the world. The Roman Church was created in the context of the Roman empire, it’s traditions, style and culture was shaped by it - because it was born out of that context it was tailored to the customs and culture of Rome. Many nations have adopted this rite, as many nations were placed under the influence of Rome. As nations adopted this rite, various cultures had their influence, but it was shaped by the people it was meant to serve.

The Ukrainian Church was shaped by the Ukrainian people - it is defined by that culture just as the Roman Church was originally shaped by the Roman people and eventually to the whole of Western Europe and it’s influence. Western Europe has had a huge influence on the world, hence its widespread use.

Churches are shaped by their people, and the people are shaped by the Church (in terms of practice, not teaching). The Truth is the same, but the exterior practices vary. Still it would do violence to any Church to try and take away its cultural identity.
 
Disallowing or scorning converts because they are not your ethnicity does not help that. Of course, I don’t think most churches are like that, but it seems to happen in Eastern and Western churches…chalk it up to fallen man.
I think eneryone agrees that someone shouldn’t be scorned for their ethnicity. However, I think a serious problem occurs when you have a convert who asks that they tone down the cultural identity of the Church because they don’t identify with it. I should think that a convert would be drawn by the culture of that Church, and would embrace it. Any request to mettle with the specific identity of a Church does extreme violence to the traditions of that Church.
 
I think eneryone agrees that someone shouldn’t be scorned for their ethnicity. However, I think a serious problem occurs when you have a convert who asks that they tone down the cultural identity of the Church because they don’t identify with it. I should think that a convert would be drawn by the culture of that Church, and would embrace it. Any request to mettle with the specific identity of a Church does extreme violence to the traditions of that Church.
Yes.
 
One person became positively disgusted at me for suggesting that we might want to consider working with Hispanic peoples, in Spanish (and others, in their native language).

**Then he would be disgusted at Patriarch Lubomir, who said EXACTLY the same thing a few years ago.

FWIW, the local Ukrainian Catholic priest was born in South America, and Ukrainian is his fourth or fifth language.**
 
I haven’t made myself clear enough. All Churches are called to serve the whole of mankind. Mankind however, is divided amongst the various nations and ethnicities of the world. The Roman Church was created in the context of the Roman empire, it’s traditions, style and culture was shaped by it - because it was born out of that context it was tailored to the customs and culture of Rome. Many nations have adopted this rite, as many nations were placed under the influence of Rome. As nations adopted this rite, various cultures had their influence, but it was shaped by the people it was meant to serve.
Indeed what you say about the division across nations and ethnicities is true. To deny this is tantamount to iconoclasm. And, as you note, the Roman Church was shaped by the prevailing Roman culture at the time of its development, and even throughout history (e.g. Renaissance, Baroque, etc.)
However, it must be remembered that the Roman Church is noted throughout history for its rigidity. In terms of missions, the Latins took their faith with them, and notably the Latin Church’s praxis was to be adopted no matter what the culture was. For example, the Latin missionaries who went to Bulgaria eschewed the Greek rites and imposed the Latin way of doing this as the orthodox way. The same happened when Latin missionaries took the Catholic faith throughout Africa, Asia, the Americas, and so forth. The Liturgy was the same (at least from the Council of Trent onwards), and it expressed the same faith. Therefore, up until the reforms of the recent century, the Latin Church was not really shaped by the people; rather, it was the people who were shaped by the Church. The Latin missionaries were often forceful, politically manipulative (spurred on, of course, by secular political powers, but not exclusively limited to this reason). One need only look at the Jesuit missions (proselytism) among the St. Thomas Christians in southern India to realize how serious the matter became.
Therefore, this is why the Roman Church spread. They were active, vigorous missionaries (edged on by good and bad motives). The people adopted the faith, and consequently the Roman Church’s customs, which in turn shaped them to develop their culture along the lines of their newly-acquired faith.
The Ukrainian Church was shaped by the Ukrainian people - it is defined by that culture just as the Roman Church was originally shaped by the Roman people and eventually to the whole of Western Europe and it’s influence. Western Europe has had a huge influence on the world, hence its widespread use.

Churches are shaped by their people, and the people are shaped by the Church (in terms of practice, not teaching). The Truth is the same, but the exterior practices vary. Still it would do violence to any Church to try and take away its cultural identity.



I think eneryone agrees that someone shouldn’t be scorned for their ethnicity. However, I think a serious problem occurs when you have a convert who asks that they tone down the cultural identity of the Church because they don’t identify with it. I should think that a convert would be drawn by the culture of that Church, and would embrace it. Any request to mettle with the specific identity of a Church does extreme violence to the traditions of that Church.
Granted, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was shaped by Ukrainian mentalities. However, Rus’ was originally evangelized by Greek missionaries. The Greeks could argue that, because the Church came from Constantinople where it was shaped by the Hellenic mentality, the Church should remain tangibly Greek. Ss. Cyril and Methodius were inspired by God to do otherwise. It would be of no practical use to evangelize a people without reaching them where they are at (St. Paul realized this in declaring that he became all things to all people, a Jew with the Jews, a Greek with the Greeks).
You are very right in extolling the diversity of practices, and this contributes to making the Church truly catholic (humans are indeed both corporeal and spiritual). Perhaps it would be well to distinguish between a ‘culture’ (e.g. liturgy and spiritual traditions), which should be accepted along with the Church, and the nation and ethnicity originally expressed in that Church. Having adopted the first, converts can find their home in a particular Church. However, my problem is with the second. That (unfortunately prevailing) mentality has and will continue to exclude people, rather viciously, from the Church of Christ.
 
I heard an interesting suggestion once, made apparently by one of the UGCC bishops, that the now-called Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should bear the title the ‘Kyivan Catholic Church’. I would endorse this, since it is parallel to the title now-adopted by the Latin Church: The ‘Roman Catholic Church’.
Both refer to (capital) cities with major geographical influence and history, thus centering the identity of a Church in one specific (unchanging) locality. It would acknowledge that the Mother Church is to be centered in that city (and, consequently, in that immediate area). (Thinking about this for a second, one could ask what ‘Ukraine’ or ‘Ukrainian’ actually means? I know of someone whose father lived in five countries without ever moving house (Austria-Hungary, Poland, Nazi Germany, U.S.S.R., Ukraine). But, indeed, cultures change and develop.)
Two Patriarchs live in each of those cities (I know that title causes some dissension, so for clarity’s sake I will say that I mean the Pope of Rome and the Major-Archbishop of Kyiv and Halych).
The suggested title would avoid associating the Church too closely with one particular ethnicity. I’ve heard of many a time when people walk up to UGC churches only to read the sign and say: ‘well, I guess I don’t belong there!’
I favor the traditional term found in the U.S.A.: Greek Catholic Church, since it refers to the Byzantine rite found among the ‘Greeks’ as opposed to the Latins. But even that might have too strong an ethnic overtone.
All in all, it is good to be One, Holy, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic Church!
 
I like the UGCC being ukrainian. I would have joined a BCC if I wanted an Americanized Byzantine church.
 
I like the UGCC being ukrainian. I would have joined a BCC if I wanted an Americanized Byzantine church.
I am curious, Formosus: if you were to compare St. Cyrill and Methodius BCC in Cary, or any of the UGCC missions in NC, what would be the key differences. And which of those are connected to Americanization?

djs
 
To be honest I have never been to the mission in Cary. I am really going on the premise that the BCC is intentionally trying to be an Eastern Catholic church specifically for Americans. I was not trying to imply “Americanization” in a negative sense or anything like that. I have a deep respect for all members and the heirarchy of the BCC and I am glad for their work here in this country. The deacon from the BCC in Cary, NC does come occasionally to help at the UGCC mission in Charlotte and he celebrates the Typicon service with much reverance.
 
However, it must be remembered that the Roman Church is noted throughout history for its rigidity. In terms of missions, the Latins took their faith with them, and notably the Latin Church’s praxis was to be adopted no matter what the culture was. For example, the Latin missionaries who went to Bulgaria eschewed the Greek rites and imposed the Latin way of doing this as the orthodox way. The same happened when Latin missionaries took the Catholic faith throughout Africa, Asia, the Americas, and so forth. The Liturgy was the same (at least from the Council of Trent onwards), and it expressed the same faith. Therefore, up until the reforms of the recent century, the Latin Church was not really shaped by the people; rather, it was the people who were shaped by the Church. The Latin missionaries were often forceful, politically manipulative (spurred on, of course, by secular political powers, but not exclusively limited to this reason). One need only look at the Jesuit missions (proselytism) among the St. Thomas Christians in southern India to realize how serious the matter became.
Therefore, this is why the Roman Church spread. They were active, vigorous missionaries (edged on by good and bad motives). The people adopted the faith, and consequently the Roman Church’s customs, which in turn shaped them to develop their culture along the lines of their newly-acquired faith.
I agree with your info, but I’m not to sure if recognize the point that is being made.
Granted, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was shaped by Ukrainian mentalities. However, Rus’ was originally evangelized by Greek missionaries. The Greeks could argue that, because the Church came from Constantinople where it was shaped by the Hellenic mentality, the Church should remain tangibly Greek.
Ss. Cyril and Methodius were inspired by God to do otherwise.
Right, those Holy Saints wanted to build a Church for the peoples of Kyivan-Rus, and we should continue to respect that wish by maintaining the liturgical heritage that they gave us.
It would be of no practical use to evangelize a people without reaching them where they are at (St. Paul realized this in declaring that he became all things to all people, a Jew with the Jews, a Greek with the Greeks).
You are very right in extolling the diversity of practices, and this contributes to making the Church truly catholic (humans are indeed both corporeal and spiritual). Perhaps it would be well to distinguish between a ‘culture’ (e.g. liturgy and spiritual traditions), which should be accepted along with the Church, and the nation and ethnicity originally expressed in that Church. Having adopted the first, converts can find their home in a particular Church. However, my problem is with the second. That (unfortunately prevailing) mentality has and will continue to exclude people, rather viciously, from the Church of Christ.
I agree completely. No one should be forced to adopt an ethnicity, but, if attending that Church, the cultural-liturgical tradition of that Church should be embraced.

In the case of the Ukrainian Church, it is a distinct East Slavic tradition, and should remain as such. If it were to change, it would cease to be the UGCC.
 
I heard an interesting suggestion once, made apparently by one of the UGCC bishops, that the now-called Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should bear the title the ‘Kyivan Catholic Church’. I would endorse this, since it is parallel to the title now-adopted by the Latin Church: The ‘Roman Catholic Church’.
Both refer to (capital) cities with major geographical influence and history, thus centering the identity of a Church in one specific (unchanging) locality.
I think a distinction needs to be made though. The Empire of Rome, was named after the city from which it sprang, whereas the nation of Rus, was never known as Kyiv, as far as I know. In any case, it just happens that the Roman empire was named after Rome, but I think the focus should be on the broader sense of Rome, in terms of culture and peoples, not simply the city.

Also, this is the Church of Ukraine, not simply of Kyiv. I think “Ukrainian” is more accurate.
(Thinking about this for a second, one could ask what ‘Ukraine’ or ‘Ukrainian’ actually means?
In terms of etymology? Or are you thinking more in terms of - what it means to be Ukrainian or even what defines Ukraine?
I know of someone whose father lived in five countries without ever moving house (Austria-Hungary, Poland, Nazi Germany, U.S.S.R., Ukraine).
My family comes from that area (two of my grandparents are old enough to have been born in Austria-Hungary, which became Poland, then Nazi occupied, then Soviet occupied, and finally, Ukrainian - but for the Ukrainians living there it has always been Ukraine). The greatest thing about Ukrainians is their identity. For over 1000 years of occupation, they maintained their language and identity, despite centuries of Polinization and Russification. The story of Ukraine is simply amazing.
The suggested title would avoid associating the Church too closely with one particular ethnicity. I’ve heard of many a time when people walk up to UGC churches only to read the sign and say: ‘well, I guess I don’t belong there!’
Those people are mistaken. Anyway, I don’t think there is anything to fear in calling the Church of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Church.
I favor the traditional term found in the U.S.A.: Greek Catholic Church, since it refers to the Byzantine rite found among the ‘Greeks’ as opposed to the Latins. But even that might have too strong an ethnic overtone.
All in all, it is good to be One, Holy, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic Church!
I really don’t understand why it is that you fear this Church’s close association with its own people? Anyone may join this Church, regardless of ethnicity and be considered a full member, but it still remains the Ukrainian Church. By joining, I would think the convert is accepting its function as a conduit of the Ukrainian tradition. The Ukrainian tradition isn’t just for Ukrainians, but it just happens to be designed for them, being shaped by its culture and can thus be rightfully called the Ukrainian Church.

I personally dislike the term “Greek Catholic”, the Church is of the Byzantine rite, not the Greek rite, and I think that this distinction needs to be made. Also the UGCC isn’t simply Byzantine, but specifically Ukrainian.

Identifying the Church of Ukraine with the Ukrainian people hardly takes away from "CATHOLIC"ness of the Church it instead increases the CATHOLICness of the Church.
 
I myself, am officially a Latin Catholic but was raised with both rites. I grew up in a family with a very patriotic bent, I grew up in a household that proudly displayed pictures of Shevchenko, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Ivan Franko and St. Volodomyr and despite not speaking Ukrainian or being born there, I style myself a Ukrainian nationalist. I was raised to love my heritage. That said, it brings me great joy when I see non-Ukrainian names in a Ukrainian Church. I think it’s awesome that my Baba’s Church has a small section of Filipinos. It makes me even prouder of my heritage to know that so many people feel attracted by it.

One thing you have to remember is that much of the older generation come from a very different world. Many of them have a very simple education, and have very humble origins. My grandparents only had a gr.6 education, and they were mostly shepherds near the Carpathians. I’m not saying this in order to bash my heritage, in fact, its an aspect which makes me very proud. I’m saying this to highlight the fact that the opinion of some of the older generation may not necessarily be the most well informed. The type of comments mentioned by the OP sound like they would come from that “type”. Ukraine has been a poor nation, kept down by its oppressive neighbors, because of this most Ukrainians come from very humble origins.

Also Ukraine, as I’ve pointed out before has a history of being persecuted and oppressed by its’ occupies for over a thousand years. They are very sensitive to preserving their tradition, this can have negative effects when taken too far. Perhaps this sensitivity could also be responsible for the response that the OP was complaining about. I’m not defending it, but simply trying to explain it.

I know my Dido (grandfather) (eternal memory!) would have shared such notions, but God bless his soul, he also thought I should be a pro-wrestler on account of my size, and that my younger brother should be a pianist or thief because of his long fingers. I won’t even touch on what he thought about gypsies.
 
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