Eastern Catholicism for Dummies?

[UniversalistGuy]

Would somebody please help me out with terminology? Does the word “Byzantine” correctly refer to a Rite or a Church? According to the reference thread at the back there are six different rites and the largest number of sui juris churches (14) use the Byzantine Rite. So I googled

“What are the names of the 14 sui juris churches that use the Byzantine Rite?”

and found a Wiki page that had a list of 14 but none of that 14 is the Byzantine Church. So what is the Byzantine Church and what is a Byzantine Catholic? How do they fit in?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Would somebody please help me out with terminology? Does the word “Byzantine” correctly refer to a Rite or a Church? According to the reference thread at the back there are six different rites and the largest number of sui juris churches (14) use the Byzantine Rite. So I googled

“What are the names of the 14 sui juris churches that use the Byzantine Rite?”

and found a Wiki page that had a list of 14 but none of that 14 is the Byzantine Church. So what is the Byzantine Church and what is a Byzantine Catholic? How do they fit in?

Byzantine is the Rite. There are 14 Churches under the Byzantine Rite.

In the US there is a so-called Byantine Catholic Church which is actually a Ruthenian Catholic Church. They are a Byzantine Rite Church, but there is some confusion when it seems they try to monopolize the term (pardon to the Ruthenians out there). I guess this is a solution to make the particular Church more welcoming to people of other ethnic backgrounds or to use a term that is more easily recognized by more people.

So that wiki page you found is the 14 sui juris Churches that belong to the Byzantine Rite. There is no Byzantine Church.

 

[5Loaves]

But wouldn’t canonical enrollment tell you who your Bishop is? And thus you should follow that Bishop. How can you be Eastern if you are following a Roman Bishop?

I’ll post this question in the ask an apologist and see what they say.

Asking the Latin apologists here should get you the Latin perspective.

But where I live, I belong to the Archdiocese of Vancouver and the Eparchy of New Westminster. So if not fo canonical enrollment, can I just switch between the two on a whim? Maybe next week I don’t feel like being an Eastern Christian anymore, what then? I mean, I have no problems following Eastern rules and practices, but what I’m afraid of is I feel I might be violating RC rules and practices. And **of course the approach to that is the Western legalistic approach **because its the Western canons and laws I might be violating.

Honestly, from an Eastern perspective this makes no sense to me… I would venture to say that as you continue, quite understandably, to bring the Latin world view which is so familiar and comfortable for you, in approaching the Eastern what you call “rules and practices” then it seems entirely likely you are not “following” the Eastern “rules and practices” because they are not lived from that mindset… Engaging in * ongoing spiritual direction* with an Eastern Father (or Matushka ) *with prayer *might begin to unravel that for you… I sincerely hope you will eventually seek such direction. It sounds like you are living in an area with many clergy and clergy wives who may well be able to work with you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Asking the Latin apologists here should get you the Latin perspective.

But as I said, that is my concern. Since I’m following Eastern practices and canonically Latin, what I fear I would violate are Latin canons, which of course would be Latin in perspective. I know you’ll agree with me when I say that you can’t really apply the Eastern thought on Latin canons. Latin canons are made with Western thought. My concern is violating Latin canons, not Eastern ones.

Honestly, from an Eastern perspective this makes no sense to me… I would venture to say that as you continue, quite understandably, to bring the Latin world view which is so familiar and comfortable for you, in approaching the Eastern what you call “rules and practices” then it seems entirely likely you are not “following” the Eastern “rules and practices” because they are not lived from that mindset… Engaging in * ongoing spiritual direction* with an Eastern Father (or Matushka ) *with prayer *might begin to unravel that for you… I sincerely hope you will eventually seek such direction. It sounds like you are living in an area with many clergy and clergy wives who may well be able to work with you.

Even in my secular life I life in a similar dilema. I’m a permanent resident of Canada but a Filipino citizen. If there are laws that apply to Filipino citizens, it applies to me. There may be laws that only apply to Canadian citizens but not to Canadian residents. Some I can think of are voting and getting certain jobs which require some sort of clearance. Actually, in my current job in a private corporation, you get different kinds of clearances depending on your citizenship. So even if I live in Canada and pay taxes here and everything, I’m still considered a foreign national because I’m Filipino. Even if I go to the US, I would need a visa because I’m not a Canadian citizen, therefore I don’t enjoy visa-free travel like other Canadians.

Now apply the same thing to the Church. I’m a “permanent resident” in an Eastern Church, but my “citizenship” is still Roman.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Byzantine is the Rite. There are 14 Churches under the Byzantine Rite.

In the US there is a so-called Byantine Catholic Church which is actually a Ruthenian Catholic Church. They are a Byzantine Rite Church, but there is some confusion when it seems they try to monopolize the term (pardon to the Ruthenians out there). I guess this is a solution to make the particular Church more welcoming to people of other ethnic backgrounds or to use a term that is more easily recognized by more people.

So that wiki page you found is the 14 sui juris Churches that belong to the Byzantine Rite. There is no Byzantine Church.

I understand. Thank you.

 

[5Loaves]

So what is the Byzantine Church and what is a Byzantine Catholic? How do they fit in?

If you go back to our HRM monks they have some helpful information on their site about this. See the sections “Byzantine?” and “What is the Byzantine Rite?” (Note “Give a monthly pledge” in the right hand margin )

The first Christian Emperor of Rome, Constantine the Great (273-337 A.D.) divided the Roman Empire in two halves. He established the capital of the Eastern half in a new city built on the site of the small town of Byzantium. This city he named Constantinople. It is today known as Istanbul, in present day Turkey.

**The adjective “Byzantine” thus refers to the Christian tradition of worship and spirituality **that developed in the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. The common language of this part of the world was Greek; the language in which the New Testament was written.

I’m in a parish called **a **“Byzantine Catholic Church” It means our spiritual and liturgical tradition and our world view come from the “Christian tradition of worship and spirituality that developed in the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire…”

As one of our posters has commented a number of times recently (forgive me for forgetting who this is) when he was growing up we were all called “Greek Catholic”. That being that we were of this same tradition for whom Greek was the common language, many moons ago. In the US more than elsewhere it seems like calling us Greek Catholics made people here think of Greek as in Greek Orthodox who are predominately ethnically Greek. Are you lost yet? LOL Anyway, many parishes which were formally called Greek Catholic have changed the title to Byzantine.

I’m a Byzantine Catholic in a Byzantine Catholic Church. We celebrate a Byzantine liturgical rite the Divine Liturgy.

Again from that HRM monks’ page:

A “rite” is a way of worship, and a whole spiritual insight into the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All the Byzantine Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, Greek, Slavic, American and so on, all share the same liturgical and spiritual heritage.

(Donations to them are tax deductible )

 

[Aramis]

Would somebody please help me out with terminology? Does the word “Byzantine” correctly refer to a Rite or a Church? According to the reference thread at the back there are six different rites and the largest number of sui juris churches (14) use the Byzantine Rite. So I googled

“What are the names of the 14 sui juris churches that use the Byzantine Rite?”

and found a Wiki page that had a list of 14 but none of that 14 is the Byzantine Church. So what is the Byzantine Church and what is a Byzantine Catholic? How do they fit in?

Both, unfortunately.

Generally, it refers to the Rite.

But it’s also in the legal name of two Churches:
Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris (The American branch of the Ruthenian Catholic Church)
Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. (a vagante church using the Byzantine Rite)

 

[Vico]

Ultimately you are a Catholic faithful because of being ascribed to one of the ritual Churches (sui iuris) and may be a member of your proper* parish in that same ritual Church, or alternatively, a member of a parish in a different ritual Church. And each of the ritual Churches comes from a tradition, which the Holy See has categorized, in addition to the Latin: Alexandrian, Armenian, Byzantine, Chaldean, or Syrian. Each parish belongs to a ritual Church through a hierarch (diocean bishop or equivalent) of the same or different ritual Church. Those hierarchs are in communion with one another, including the Supreme Pontiff.

• The proper parish is obliged to provide you with certain services.

Then there are liturgical rites which are used by the various ritual Churches.

Levels: 1. parish, 2. diocese/eparchy/exarchy/abbacy, etc., 3. ritual Church, 4. universal Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ultimately you are a Catholic faithful because of being ascribed to one of the ritual Churches (sui iuris) and may be a member of your proper* parish in that same ritual Church, or alternatively, a member of a parish in a different ritual Church. And each of the ritual Churches comes from a tradition, which the Holy See has categorized, in addition to the Latin: Alexandrian, Armenian, Byzantine, Chaldean, or Syrian. Each parish belongs to a ritual Church through a hierarch (diocean bishop or equivalent) of the same or different ritual Church. Those hierarchs are in communion with one another, including the Supreme Pontiff.

• The proper parish is obliged to provide you with certain services.

Then there are liturgical rites which are used by the various ritual Churches.

Levels: 1. parish, 2. diocese/eparchy/exarchy/abbacy, etc., 3. ritual Church, 4. universal Church.

No offense but it would really bother my conscience. I know you say that there are those from another ritual Church in the care of a pastor of another ritual Church. But in my case I’m in a middle of a city with parishes of both ritual Churches. My RC parish is only 2 blocks from my home. So how can I say I’m following the UGCC Bishop and not the RC Bishop? Same with my son. Is it just good will on my part? I know the Eastern thought would accept it, but what of the Latin which is more legalistic? I just feel uneasy not following the RC Bishop when canonically I still should belong to him.

 

[Vico]

No offense but it would really bother my conscience. I know you say that there are those from another ritual Church in the care of a pastor of another ritual Church. But in my case I’m in a middle of a city with parishes of both ritual Churches. My RC parish is only 2 blocks from my home. So how can I say I’m following the UGCC Bishop and not the RC Bishop? Same with my son. Is it just good will on my part? I know the Eastern thought would accept it, but what of the Latin which is more legalistic? I just feel uneasy not following the RC Bishop when canonically I still should belong to him.

Ok. I did not mean to suggest following the bishop of another ritual Church than one is ascribed to, meaning the discipline (sacramental, penitential, holy days). (Your “citizenship” is still Latin.)

Yet the Holy See wrote the canons (CIC, CCEO) such that compliance would not create a conflict in the family between those in different ritual Churches, or those traveling. For example, married couples in mixed ritual Churches can follow the holy days, penitential seasons and fasting/abstinance rules of either church. And any Catholic can assist at Liturgy and receive the Holy Eucharist and Holy Confession anywhere in any Catholic ritual church, without complication.

 

[C_Alexander]

No offense but it would really bother my conscience. I know you say that there are those from another ritual Church in the care of a pastor of another ritual Church. But in my case I’m in a middle of a city with parishes of both ritual Churches. My RC parish is only 2 blocks from my home. So how can I say I’m following the UGCC Bishop and not the RC Bishop? Same with my son. Is it just good will on my part? I know the Eastern thought would accept it, but what of the Latin which is more legalistic? I just feel uneasy not following the RC Bishop when canonically I still should belong to him.

What is the difference between the night before a wedding and the night after? The night before an adoption hearing and the night after? The night before a child is born and the night after?

Our rituals are in place for a reason and help us transition from one life stage to another. While some might do well without the formal rituals, going through the process of submitting oneself to the authority of the bishops and receiving their permission and the little slip of paper that says it is official isn’t an east and west issue.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What is the difference between the night before a wedding and the night after? The night before an adoption hearing and the night after? The night before a child is born and the night after?

Our rituals are in place for a reason and help us transition from one life stage to another. While some might do well without the formal rituals, going through the process of submitting oneself to the authority of the bishops and receiving their permission and the little slip of paper that says it is official isn’t an east and west issue.

The thing about the Church too is submitting to your elder. At this point, who is my elder? Is it my call? Theirs? My baptisms? Canonical enrollment?

 

[C_Alexander]

The thing about the Church too is submitting to your elder. At this point, who is my elder? Is it my call? Theirs? My baptisms? Canonical enrollment?

That would be a difficult position to be in, feeling pulled by duty in one direction and by calling to another. Discerning with guidance where you belong and then firmly planting yourself in one tradition or the other would seem wise for someone facing that.

 

[Vico]

The thing about the Church too is submitting to your elder. At this point, who is my elder? Is it my call? Theirs? My baptisms? Canonical enrollment?

You are obliged to matters of discipline through your (canonical) ascription, but can receive a dispensation.

You are free to choose a confessor (penence) or spiritual counselor from any Catholic ritual Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That would be a difficult position to be in, feeling pulled by duty in one direction and by calling to another. Discerning with guidance where you belong and then firmly planting yourself in one tradition or the other would seem wise for someone facing that.

Thanks. That is how I feel. I’d probably back off some things that would bring into conflict between Roman and Eastern disciplines. I do intend to apply for canonical transfer, I will consult the Bishop with this one. Its great to be in regular contact with the Bishop and see him often.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You are obliged to matters of discipline through your (canonical) ascription, but can receive a dispensation.

You are free to choose a confessor (penence) or spiritual counselor from any Catholic ritual Church.

Thanks, that is what I thought.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

As one of our posters has commented a number of times recently (forgive me for forgetting who this is) when he was growing up we were all called “Greek Catholic”. That being that we were of this same tradition for whom Greek was the common language, many moons ago. In the US more than elsewhere it seems like calling us Greek Catholics made people here think of Greek as in Greek Orthodox who are predominately ethnically Greek. Are you lost yet? LOL Anyway, many parishes which were formally called Greek Catholic have changed the title to Byzantine.

If I’m getting better at understanding all this the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Church that C_Alexander sent me to has the name Greek in it but that word isn’t meant to convey that the church will be full of Greek people going, "He don’t eat no meat?” like in My Big Fat Greek Wedding but that the church identifies itself as being historically associated with Greek Christian spirituality. It says on their website that the name Greek-Catholic Church was introduced by Empress Maria Theresa in 1774 in order to distinguish it from the Roman Catholic and Armenian Catholic Churches. I couldn’t see why. I wondered where “Greek” came from. But if it’s meant to be an association with Greek Christian spirituality then I might be getting it. Am I on the right track?

I’m a Byzantine Catholic in a Byzantine Catholic Church. We celebrate a Byzantine liturgical rite the Divine Liturgy.

I think I get that now. Byzantine is the rite but it’s also the name of your church, which church is actually Ruthenian, correct? Not that I know what Ruthenian is yet I’ve only learned the word on this thread. But how come you include “Roman Rite” in your Religion at the top right of your posts? How does Roman Rite fit in? Isn’t that the Latin Mass?

 

[ProVobis]

If I’m getting better at understanding all this the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Church that C_Alexander sent me to has the name Greek in it but that word isn’t meant to convey that the church will be full of Greek people going, "He don’t eat no meat?” like in My Big Fat Greek Wedding but that the church identifies itself as being historically associated with Greek Christian spirituality. It says on their website that the name Greek-Catholic Church was introduced by Empress Maria Theresa in 1774 in order to distinguish it from the Roman Catholic and Armenian Catholic Churches. I couldn’t see why. I wondered where “Greek” came from. But if it’s meant to be an association with Greek Christian spirituality then I might be getting it. Am I on the right track?

I think I get that now. Byzantine is the rite but it’s also the name of your church, which church is actually Ruthenian, correct? Not that I know what Ruthenian is yet I’ve only learned the word on this thread. But how come you include “Roman Rite” in your Religion at the top right of your posts? How does Roman Rite fit in? Isn’t that the Latin Mass?

I’ll agree with you about the confusion surrounding the terminologies. Many call it “Latinization” where they mean the Western Rite, since there has been less and less Latin used in the Western liturgies, much to my dismay, although most of the Vatican documents are still in Latin.

 

[Vico]

…Byzantine is the rite but it’s also the name of your church, which church is actually Ruthenian, correct? Not that I know what Ruthenian is yet I’ve only learned the word on this thread. …

Rusyn are an east slavic people, the Latinized name is Ruthen. They exist in several countries including Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, immigrants in the US and Canada, etc… The Churches are intertwined historically. In 1924 the Ruthenian Church was split into the Ukrainian and Ruthenian. Later the Ruthenian Church in the USA was renamed to Byzantine. A timeline:

U = Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
R = Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church
S = Slovak Greek Catholic Church
H = Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
C = Krizevci (Croatian) Greek Catholic Church

Eparchies/Dioceses:
---- Lemkowszczyzna (U)
---- Kamyanets (U)
1087 Przemysl (U)
1677 Lviv (U) (later moved to Kiev)
1771 Mukacheve (R)
1777 Krizevci (C)
1818 Diocese of Presov from Mukacheve (S)
1885 Ivano-Frankivsk (U)
1912 Canadian Exarchate (U)
1912 Diocese of Hajdudorog (H)
+
1924 Ukrainian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Constantine Bohachevsky (U)
1924 Ruthenian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Basil Takach (R)
1924 Apostolic Exarchate Miskolc (H)
+
1958 Metropolitan Archdiocese of Philadelphia from Exarchate (U)
1963 Diocese of Pittsburgh from Exarchate (R)
1969 Diocese of Pittsburgh renamed Diocese of Munhall (R)
1977 Diocese of Pittsburgh renamed ritus bizantini from Muhallensis Ruthenorum (R)
1996 Apostolic Exarchate (from Presov) Czech Republic (R)
2003 Apostolic Exarchate Serbia and Montenegro (C)

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ll agree with you about the confusion surrounding the terminologies. Many call it “Latinization” where they mean the Western Rite, since there has been less and less Latin used in the Western liturgies, much to my dismay, although most of the Vatican documents are still in Latin.

When I try to explain my point in the Traditional forum by using Eastern Christianity as an example or analogy, you tell me not to talk about Eastern Christianity there because its the Traditional Forum. Perhaps you should practice what you preach and not bring that traditionalist viewpoint here in the Eastern Catholic forum