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devoutchristian
Guest
Would your objection be reduced if the word purified were used instead of the word punished?
So you also reject the idea of posthumous forgiveness of venial sins?
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Vico
Guest
What do you make of this?
1 Corinthians 3:10-13
10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation: and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
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souryoyo
Guest
We need an intro to Eastern Catholic Theology Sticky.
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RyanBlack
Guest
While the Orthodox do not use the language of venial sins, and I’ve never heard them speak in the language of state of grace vs. state of mortal sin, I would not think any Orthodox would object to the idea of the posthumous forgivenss of what Catholics would call venial sins, since in the Panachida service, they pray for the forgiveness of sins of the faithful departed on whose behalf the Panachida is offered.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Mal 4:1-2
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall.”
Purgatory=purge=purification. Analogy “burning ‘like’ an oven”
1 Corinthians 3:10-13
“According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation: and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is”.
These verse’s become reduced to “like” “try”… the fire shall “try”. That’s the unknown. Many of the Saints have stated there is no “real” fire. Its no different than to say the relationship has heated up, or grown cold. It simply means the relationship is changing. How this occurs for the better is “unknown” but begs the question why does one have to feel pain to receive forgiveness?
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall.”
Purgatory=purge=purification. Analogy “burning ‘like’ an oven”
1 Corinthians 3:10-13
“According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation: and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is”.
These verse’s become reduced to “like” “try”… the fire shall “try”. That’s the unknown. Many of the Saints have stated there is no “real” fire. Its no different than to say the relationship has heated up, or grown cold. It simply means the relationship is changing. How this occurs for the better is “unknown” but begs the question why does one have to feel pain to receive forgiveness?
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Cavaradossi
Guest
We interpret it as St. John Chrysostom interprets it, that there is one everlasting fire, which is the punishment due for sins, and that the salvation here mentioned is not salvation in the sense of the bliss experienced by the righteous, but is to be understood as meaning that the unrighteous will not be destroyed by the fire, unlike their wicked works, but will abide in it for eternity.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
I hear what your saying but don’t read or see that in the above verse Cav.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Only if that came with a repudiation of the idea that God punishes sinners in the intermediate state for sins which have been forgiven.
Sins may be forgiven after death, but this is not accomplished through punishment or fire but through the prayers of the faithful, the bloodless sacrifice, and above all the mercy of God.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I suppose on a deeper level one can go into a elaboration of the Cross. Or mans state here in human nature. I don’t know that follows with purification though? I suppose one would have to fall back on sanctification through suffering, which is true. Again though this relates to mortification in and as a human.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
I do nothing but interpret it as the holy fathers have done.
He calls it, however, Salvation, you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, so as by fire: since we also used to say, It is preserved in the fire, when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word Captivity seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5 And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, Sin reigned, Romans 5:21 here surely the term reigning is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, he shall be saved, he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, But himself shall remain forever in punishment.
newadvent.org/fathers/220109.htm
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twf
Guest
How many Latin Catholics actually practice indulgences? Haha. I think it is one of those “little secrets” of the modern Church. That being said, don’t forget that indulgences aren’t just for the dead - we can also obtain indulgences for ourselves while alive. The ancient practice from which indulgences developed was the bishop’s power to reduce the required penance for certain sins. In the East this developed into what you call economy (still practiced today - how many Orthodox priests impose years of penance on the faithful, even if a serious sin is committed?)…in the West it developed into indulgences.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
"In what sense then does he say, “he shall suffer loss?”
From this it is plain that the discourse is about actions. For since he means next in course to put out his strength against the man who had committed fornication, he begins high up and long beforehand to lay down the preliminaries. For he knew how while discussing one subject, in the very discourse about that thing to prepare the grounds of another to which he intends to pass on. For so in his rebuke for not awaiting one another at their meals, he laid the grounds of his discourse concerning the mysteries. And also because now he is hastening on towards the fornicator, while speaking about the “Foundation,” he adds, Do you not know that you are the Temple of God? And that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroy (Φθείρη, rec. version, “defile.”) the Temple of God, him will God destroy. Now these things, he said, as beginning now to agitate with fears the soul of him that had been unchaste".
My original point is that when we speak of salvation here. We are not speaking of heaven, but the path to eternal salvation. We are still on the path to eternal salvation thus the final judgement, which for sure is still salvation. So the fire is the purification no different that melting Gold, to bring out the better of the Soul, and to burn off impurity.
From this it is plain that the discourse is about actions. For since he means next in course to put out his strength against the man who had committed fornication, he begins high up and long beforehand to lay down the preliminaries. For he knew how while discussing one subject, in the very discourse about that thing to prepare the grounds of another to which he intends to pass on. For so in his rebuke for not awaiting one another at their meals, he laid the grounds of his discourse concerning the mysteries. And also because now he is hastening on towards the fornicator, while speaking about the “Foundation,” he adds, Do you not know that you are the Temple of God? And that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroy (Φθείρη, rec. version, “defile.”) the Temple of God, him will God destroy. Now these things, he said, as beginning now to agitate with fears the soul of him that had been unchaste".
My original point is that when we speak of salvation here. We are not speaking of heaven, but the path to eternal salvation. We are still on the path to eternal salvation thus the final judgement, which for sure is still salvation. So the fire is the purification no different that melting Gold, to bring out the better of the Soul, and to burn off impurity.
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Maron_Ignatius
Guest
You are thinking of a Latin perspective of purgatory, this goes back to what I said “(Eastern Catholic)they are not bound to have a Latin perspective; also I want to express that Latins can use an Eastern perspective, they are not bound to using a Latin perspective.”
You will find Latins who have an Eastern view of Theosis “Purgatory”; you will also find Eastern Catholics with a Latin view.
The difference in perspectives is - I think - best explained here:
east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory
The link also gives an answer to the second quote.
I actually have a view that purgatory has different levels, that some levels are more like hell while the other levels are more like heaven.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Exactly right, really the bottom line here, there are way to many unknowns which we in truth rely on our Faith. To go way out on a limb with unknown, I just can’t see where it helps.
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mardukm
Guest
There are only 3 dogmatic statements on Purgatory given by the Church that I know of - the ex cathedra decree Benedictus Deus, the Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent. None of them mention the necessity of punishment, or cleansing through fire.
The satisfaction of God’s Justice for the righteous in this life is a doctrine of the Oriental Tradition. Your belief and my belief coexist in the Catholic Church in peace and unity.
Every bishop has it. Why should there be a bias against the bishop of Rome?
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
Your particular Church might not, but the Russian Orthodox Church had a similar practice that existed until the 20th century.
Anyway, you are wrong on this matter. Indulgences is not a necessary part of the doctrine of Purgatory. Indulgences are considered salutary according to the dogmatic documents. That means they are helpful, but not necessary. Brother TWF, who is actually a Latin, has it right - probably not that many Latin Catholics make use of it. You should really stop trying to speak for the Latins on what they believe.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
I don’t think you answered the question. Cavaradossi asked if Eastern Catholics are required to believe that forgived sin still requires punishment. Indulgences has nothing to do with punishment. Indulgences are related to the satisfaction of God’s Justice. Satisfaction does not equal punishment – or perhaps it is thus popularly equated in the Latin mind, but the Oriental Tradition has a different understanding of satisfaction.Perhaps the problem might be that there are Latin Catholics (as well as former Latin Catholics who join other Traditions) who think that Catholicism is only equivalent to Latin Catholicism.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
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devoutchristian
Guest
Do you object to the concept of forgiven sins still needing to be purified or do you merely object to the concept of them needing to be punished?
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mardukm
Guest
What part is incompatible with “your” theology? Is it the idea that there is purification or increase in holiness after death? Is it that there might be some suffering involved in this process? Is it the idea that our prayers and suffrages on earth and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass aid these souls in the afterlife? This is all that “Purgatory” is according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. To repeat, exactly what part is incompatible with “your” theology?
Blessings,
Marduk
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