Eastern Catholics defending Orthodoxy vs Roman Catholics

[Alexandria2020]

Now the real question is which scenario is this… are people rightfully advancing their own Rite by adapting some Latin elements? Or is their patrimony being destroyed to conform some false ideas of unity?

the sad reality is - it creates division and internal struggles - in the SMC there are pro-Latin and pro-Oriental factions now. the pro-Latin eparchies employ the liturgy like the Ordinary form, while the pro-Orientals are more traditional. I think the current generation is more aware of their heritage and willing to learn more compared to my parent’s generation - all now mainly due to the power of social media. The Synod is trying to go more pro-oriental as well- but it’s a slow process. the only thing I fear is if these internal struggles might lead to another schism somewhere in the future?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I think the current generation is more aware of their heritage and willing to learn more compared to my parent’s generation - all now mainly due to the power of social media.

Then the answer is clear- Syro Malabar Rite should return to it’s former form where it did not have Latinizations for good of the souls. Technically speaking, if indeed younger generation is doing this, it is very plausible that just this will happen

the only thing I fear is if these internal struggles might lead to another schism somewhere in the future?

Technically Church could split into two autonomous bodies while remaining in communion. But I doubt it. Virtue of being Catholic is that you are in communion with the Pope so I doubt Schism would happen… if someone wants something like OF why would they break communion with the Pope? Just become Latin Catholic. Still, I am speaking as someone who has never personally experienced beauty of your Rite so my assumptions might very well be wrong. I will pray that there will not be a Schism and entire Syro Malabar Church will stay united in communion with Holy Father in Rome.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I meant before Trent… something around 8th to 10th century Gallican Rites (which were very old, to the point St. Augustine knew about them as ancient) started disappearing thanks to Charlemagne and his successors… Spanish people experienced similar stuff with their rulers started suppressing anything non-Roman. It is actually very interesting that when Pope was writing about England embracing new Rite, he said that any “Roman or Gallican” Rite would do just fine for them. Unlike in the East where Patriarchs usually suppressed other Rites in their territory to the point they were minorities, Roman Popes have maintained at least 3 groups of Rites up until the Schism.

Of course some have survived that, but they were once very numerous and are for sure Eastern in origin Lyonese Rite was heavily Romanized and while it still exists today, you wouldn’t consider it Eastern if you experienced it.

Exactly. Not every development of Rite (be it influenced by other Rites or no) is forbidden. To again use Roman Rite as example, it was known for shortening everything to the point that some early Roman Masses had “Let us pray” (Oremus) followed by nothing. Popes later reworked it and got very simple and short version of the Mass which was purely Roman in origin and style. What became Tridentine Mass, loved and adored by many including me, was actually heavily Gallicanization of Roman Liturgy and still it is great, part of our great patrimony and something Rome and entire Latin Rite holds dear.

 

[Alexandria2020]

That’s the sad reality of Schism

In the SyroMalabar narrative… It’s about Rome giving political and theological powers to various empires (Padroado - Portuguese). The irony was that before the Synod of Diamper of 1599 the Malabar Church was anyway under the authority of a Chaldean Catholic bishop (Mar Abraham of Angamaly). So the Latins took over an Eastern Catholic territory and latinized it. Which is even more sad.

 

[Justin_Mary]

He’s got the whole world, in his hands. He’s got the whole world, in his hands.

He’s got the whole world in his Hands.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The irony was that before the Synod of Diamper of 1599 the Malabar Church was anyway under the authority of a Chaldean Catholic bishop (Mar Abraham of Angamaly). So the Latins took over an Eastern Catholic territory and latinized it. Which is even more sad.

That is indeed sad, unjust and borders Schismaric tendencies (from Latin side). I commend Syro Malabars for staying Catholic. Indeed you are faithful followers of our Lord and Saviour.

Have you heard about Padre Pio? This Saint wanted to be Priest and celebrate Mass… he had visions of Heaven. First he was suspended for sickness, later he was suspended because of stigmata he received - Church authorities at first believed that they are fake. Instead of Schisming or rebelling in other way, Padre Pio who was right and he knew that, submitted to this unfair suspension and decision of Church authority. And Syro Malabars did too… for sake of unity our Saviour prayed for.

 

[Alexandria2020]

submitted to this unfair suspension and decision of Church authority. And Syro Malabars did too… for sake of unity our Saviour prayed for.

Gotcha. Get what you mean

 

[Elvis_George]

The reason (my theory) why Ernakulam Archeparchy is very heavily latinized is because they are right next door to a strong Latin Catholic population ( Archdiocese of Verapoly). So since the Latin Sunday Novus Ordo Mass is just 30-40s mins or so. The Ernakulam Archeparchy has tried to mirror their liturgy to the Novus Ordo format ( so as members won’t fly off the Latin Church)

I agree, with the exception of the last part…most syro’s will remain syro no matter what…also ekm-angamaly’s archbishop was Mar Joseph Parecattil. He started the practice of celebrating the Qurbana ad populum, which was without the consent of synod. All other bishops refused to accept, including Thrissur (at the time.) Nowadays there are only a couple of eparchies who continue to celebrate ad populum. Irnjalakuda (my eparchy), Ekm-Angamaly, Thrissur (there are plenty of churches which do it half and half), Palackad (both practices are prevalent), Kothamangalam (rarely. I’ve only seen one church using ad populum) , and a couple churches in Mandhya and Satna…the rest use the half and half formula, Changanessery uses 100% ad orientam

 

[Elvis_George]

the sad reality is - it creates division and internal struggles - in the SMC there are pro-Latin and pro-Oriental factions now. the pro-Latin eparchies employ the liturgy like the Ordinary form, while the pro-Orientals are more traditional. I think the current generation is more aware of their heritage and willing to learn more compared to my parent’s generation - all now mainly due to the power of social media. The Synod is trying to go more pro-oriental as well- but it’s a slow process. the only thing I fear is if these internal struggles might lead to another schism somewhere in the future?

ANOTHER COURT VERDICT AAAAAAAAAH

 

[Alexandria2020]

Changanessery uses 100% ad orientam

I saw an old interview of Mar Joseph Powathil - where he says in the directives given by Rome in the 80s- Rome actually gave permission for the part at the bema to be done ad orientem. So he says that’s the reason why Changanessery employes the Qurbana fully ad orientem.

 

[Elvis_George]

I saw an old interview of Mar Joseph Powathil - where he says in the directives given by Rome in the 80s- Rome actually gave permission for the part at the bema to be done ad orientem. So he says that’s the reason why Changanessery employes the Qurbana fully ad orientem.

that’s how it should be

 

[ziapueblo]

Now the real question is which scenario is this… are people rightfully advancing their own Rite by adapting some Latin elements?

I find it interesting that you would use the phrase “rightfully advancing” here. It reads as if Latin elements are superior because by adapting these elements an Eastern right is “advancing”. I’m sure that is not what you mean?!?!

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I’m sure that is not what you mean?!?!

It isn’t that Latin RIte is superior, but elements might as well be. To use my example with Gallican Rite, one couldn’t say that it was superior to Roman Rite but it did have superior elements which Roman Rite wisely adopted. Of course, superiority of elements themselves is based upon how compatible they are with people in the Rite- so even that in itself is subjective. I’m sure Early Roman Christians wouldn’t like Gallican elements in their Liturgies but later, when Roman Christians have already changed they adopted them with enthusiasm.

So some elements being “superior” means they are better fitting for the souls that use them, and therefore those souls take advantage from them. That is also reason why Roman Rite basically outlived Gallican Rites after it borrowed elements from Gallican Rite… it was much “better” for use at that time in Gallican regions. I don’t mean development after Trent- but Gallican Rites were heavily Romanized to the point where they were actually Roman Rites during Middle Ages.

Whether those elements are “superior” or not depends on people who wish to use them. Private Devotions which grow into popular sentiment and change the Rite itself… because Rite is living Tradition like a garden that blossoms and grows through people who follow it. And sometimes foreign flowers make it beautiful, sometimes they are not a good idea- it all depends on people who grow them.

 

[dochawk]

The Eastern Catholic Churches never used the filioque

That is overstated–we’re still stamping it out.

Prior to the RDL, the old red books for US Ruthenian Byzantine actually had it in parenthesis, as some churches used it, while others didn’t.

It was one of the more abusive latinizations forced on many EC . . .

 

[Alexandria2020]

Prior to the RDL, the old red books for US Ruthenian Byzantine actually had it in parenthesis, as some churches used it, while others didn’t.

In the SyroMalabar US Chicago eparchy we still use filioque like below. But I’ve heard the more traditional eparchies in India don’t use the filioque.

“…who proceeds from the Father
and the Son the life-giving Spirit.”

 

[Elvis_George]

In the SyroMalabar US Chicago eparchy we still use filioque like below. But I’ve heard the more traditional eparchies in India don’t use the filioque.

“…who proceeds from the Father
and the Son the life-giving Spirit.”

The Eparchy of Chicago can be considered one of the more traditional eparchies, probably due to the use of Ad Orientam (half and half), the use of Syriac (My Church uses Syriac in every single English Qurbana), and for heavily relying on eastern theologians like Mar Aprem (Just take a look at our CCD books and you’ll understand why)…but then again there’s always the filioque . I personally skip the words but other people usually do say it. In the book, it’s written in brackets. In the book of the version Ekm-Angamaly uses, the filioque is not even put in parenthesis. The most probable reason for why we still say it is because we are surrounded by Latins and also because priests just don’t know about it.

 

[Alexandria2020]

The Eparchy of Chicago can be considered one of the more traditional eparchies,

No. We are in the middle. Great Britain Eparchy is traditional.

Our Chicago eparchy missions are fully versus populum like the Ordinary form. If you ever been to one.

The reason I consider Great Britain eparchy traditional is due to the liturgy of the hours. I’ve seen on YouTube- priests say morning (sapra) and evening (ramsha) prayers in their St Alphonsa cathedral. Plus check out the video below from 2019 Easter. They are singing traditional Syriac hymns- Sagdhinan Mar - “My Lord, we worship your humanity and divinity without doubt” . I’ve never seen this in the Chicago eparchy.

 

[ziapueblo]

. . . but elements might as well be.

I thought Vatican II stated that no one rite was greater than another?

ZP

 

[Elvis_George]

They are singing traditional Syriac hymns- Sagdhinan Mar - “My Lord, we worship your humanity and divinity without doubt” . I’ve never seen this in the Chicago eparchy.

I’ve heard of syriac songs like Slosvak Awoon and many others also sung in our eparchy…but ad populum in our eparchy? Actually? My church used to be a mission and there we always had done it half and half

 

[Alexandria2020]

but ad populum in our eparchy? Actually?

The few missions I’ve been to were versus populum. Was surprised. Plus our eparchy still has that emphasis on rosaries and novenas. I heard the Britain bishop Mar Srampical will wear the traditional labussa soon (black dress).

So you can see the British eparchy is more pro-oriental.