Eastern Catholics "forced" and "bribed" into communion with the RCC

[tdgesq]

Well…some came voluntarily…others were forced…still others were bribed. The history is painful and sometimes bloody. I don’t think you want to go there. Start a thread if you wish.

Here is a quote that came to me from an Eastern Orthodox poster. Is this how Eastern Catholics view themselves? And if so, why do they remain in communion with the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Dempsey1919]

They stay because of faith. It would be very easy for the Eastern Catholics to become Eastern Orthodox but they don’t. They do not become orthodox because of faith.

I don’t care about the history of it all. It doesn’t make a difference. The Eastern Catholics have their own free will. They could all convert to buddhism is they desired. However, they choose to remain united with Rome in faith. That is their free choice. Sure, some may have been forced or bribed. But no one is forcing them to stay.

Sour grapes from the Eastern Orthodox - that’s what it looks like to me.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Here is a quote that came to me from an Eastern Orthodox poster. Is this how Eastern Catholics view themselves? And if so, why do they remain in communion with the Roman Catholic Church?

I do not believe it possible to have forced this communion with Rome given that it would have been very easy for the People and Priest of the Eastern Catholic Rite Church to follow with the Orthodox if they had chosen to do so. Why some churches in the East stayed in the Catholic faith when the other did not I do not know. Other than to say that the Holy Spirit must have Guided the Bishops of Those Churches not to fall into schism.

 

[Ungcsertez]

They stay because of faith. It would be very easy for the Eastern Catholics to become Eastern Orthodox but they don’t. They do not become orthodox because of faith.

I don’t care about the history of it all. It doesn’t make a difference. The Eastern Catholics have their own free will. They could all convert to buddhism is they desired. However, they choose to remain united with Rome in faith. That is their free choice. Sure, some may have been forced or bribed. But no one is forcing them to stay.

Sour grapes from the Eastern Orthodox - that’s what it looks like to me.

There have been many Eastern Catholics who have retuned to Orthodoxy of their own free will. I just heard of a parishioner from a parish that I attend was recieved into Orthodoxy last week for Orthodox Pascha. So it does happen often. Also, many Roman Catholics have been know to officially or unofficially leave their Latin Particular Church for any of the numerous Eastern and Oriental Particular Churches.

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C

 

[Patchunky]

There have been many Eastern Catholics who have retuned to Orthodoxy of their own free will. I just heard of a parishioner from a parish that I attend was recieved into Orthodoxy last week for Orthodox Pascha. So it does happen often. Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen! U-C

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the RDL, this is happening more and more often…

 

[SVP]

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the RDL, this is happening more and more often…

Oh. Right. The much discussed RDL is now the cause du jour for Ruthenians Catholics abandoning their Catholic faith to Orthodoxy.

The RDL translation will eventually fade into the shadow of history as new generations reexamine it.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Oh. Right. The much discussed RDL is now the cause du jour for Ruthenians Catholics abandoning their Catholic faith to Orthodoxy.

The RDL translation will eventually fade into the shadow of history as new generations reexamine it.

I would love to see it fade away, all the way out of the Archeparchy!

U-C

 

[anamchrist]

If you would read the history of the Unia closely, you would see there is some ground for the opinion expressed in the OP. There were many reasons why these Churches reunited with Rome. Were they better off? Only time will tell. Personally, I long for the day when we are one with both our mother Churches in Orthodoxy, while remaining in communion with the Church of Rome. And yes, many Eastern Catholics do return to union with their mother Churches on the other side of the Bosporus. Some speculate that we have the right to do so and I personally have a favorable view of that opinion.

 

[Patchunky]

Oh. Right. The much discussed RDL is now the cause du jour for Ruthenians Catholics abandoning their Catholic faith to Orthodoxy.

AMOF, yes…

I was at an ACROGC parish near Pittsburgh last summer for their festival. The priest told me how their numbers had increased in many parishes because of the RDL…

 

[Ghosty]

It’s important to remember that this characterization of Eastern Catholicism doesn’t apply across the board.

The two largest Eastern Catholic Churches have their own histories. The Ukrainian Catholic Church, while it might have begun as described above (though there is debate about that), certainly doesn’t fit the description today. Quite the opposite, in fact; it recently re-emerged from out of the Russian Orthodox Church after having been forced into it, and its non-consenting priests having been shipped off to gulags in Siberia. It was a spontaneous movement from within, not compulsion from without, which brought the modern Ukrainian Catholic Church back from the underground.

The Melkite Church, on the other hand, entered Communion with Rome when the elected Patriarch of Antioch and his Synod opted to do so in the 18th Century, and they’ve been in Communion ever since. They faced severe persecution from the Ottoman Empire for doing so at the time.

There are other Eastern Catholic Churches with similar stories, but these are noteworthy because they are the largest by far, and they correspond to Eastern Orthodox Churches. The story cuts both ways, as the Ukrainian Church proves amply, and doesn’t make for edifying discussion among people who want merely to denigrate the histories and Churches of others. It’s a topic that, as soon as you make a claim against another Church, dirties your own as well once the facts are on the table.

Peace and God bless!

 

[anamchrist]

If you think that, then you don’t know much about the history of the Church of Kyiv. When we signed the Union of Brest, it was as much for political protection from the Poles as it was over religion. Have you read the Union articles? Theology is barely mentioned and even when it is, all they say is we won’t discuss it. Most of the articles are seeking equality with the Latin clergy and the right to follow our own ways.

An interesting fact for you, the areas that remained heavily Greek Catholic under the Communists just happened to be the areas that were the very last to sign the Articles of Union.

 

[Ghosty]

If you think that, then you don’t know much about the history of the Church of Kyiv. When we signed the Union of Brest, it was as much for political protection from the Poles as it was over religion. Have you read the Union articles? Theology is barely mentioned and even when it is, all they say is we won’t discuss it. Most of the articles are seeking equality with the Latin clergy and the right to follow our own ways.

An interesting fact for you, the areas that remained heavily Greek Catholic under the Communists just happened to be the areas that were the very last to sign the Articles of Union.

I’m not sure if you’re responding to my post or not. If so then I would point out that I didn’t deny that the Ukrainian Church began as you described, but merely pointed out that its current life is not indicative of a group of ecclesial hostages.

On the contrary, the Ukrainian Catholic Church re-emerged from Eastern Orthodoxy in the last couple of decades. If was a group of “hostages” at the mercy of Rome and the Polish Occupation, it would have remained with the Russian Orthodox Church.

If it arose out of political expedience centuries ago, it has survived as a thriving identity, one that would distinguish itself from the Eastern Orthodox Communion even after generations of being absorbed by it. That’s indicative of something much more than a group bribed or held hostage by Rome.

Peace and God bless!

 

[tdgesq]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. The title of this thread is a response I often get when I discuss the papacy with the EO. I’m told that communion is in spite of the papacy, not because of it. I’m told that the authority of the Roman Pontiff is a purely Latin construct.

I always understood that the EC’s consider the Bishop of Rome to be charged with a unique Petrine ministry within the Church. I would not be at all surprised to find that the EC’s view that through a different theological lens than the RC’s, but I’ve never gotten the impression that its just something ECs feel they “have to put up with.” I’d like to know your thoughts on that.

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the RDL, this is happening more and more often…

I’m ashamed to say that I don’t know what “RDL” stands for.

 

[anamchrist]

I think if you examined our history closely, you would find that the Unia has sat rather lightly on our people. For example, here in the USA you will find that most of the Slavic Orthodox Churches are peopled with former Eastern Catholics. One Byzantine Catholic parish that I know of has passed back and forth between Ukrainian Catholic, Byzantine Catholic and Russian Orthodox. Mostly, our folks just want to be left alone. If Moscow messes with us too much, we’ll reunite with Rome. If Rome or the US Latin bishops mess with us too much, we’ll become Orthodox. We just want to be left alone to be ourselves, no matter who we are in union with.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. The title of this thread is a response I often get when I discuss the papacy with the EO. I’m told that communion is in spite of the papacy, not because of it. I’m told that the authority of the Roman Pontiff is a purely Latin construct.

I always understood that the EC’s consider the Bishop of Rome to be charged with a unique Petrine ministry within the Church. I would not be at all surprised to find that the EC’s view that through a different theological lens than the RC’s, but I’ve never gotten the impression that its just something ECs feel they “have to put up with.” I’d like to know your thoughts on that.

I’m ashamed to say that I don’t know what “RDL” stands for.

Revised Divine Liturgy.

U-C

 

[Ghosty]

I think if you examined our history closely, you would find that the Unia has sat rather lightly on our people. For example, here in the USA you will find that most of the Slavic Orthodox Churches are peopled with former Eastern Catholics. One Byzantine Catholic parish that I know of has passed back and forth between Ukrainian Catholic, Byzantine Catholic and Russian Orthodox. Mostly, our folks just want to be left alone. If Moscow messes with us too much, we’ll reunite with Rome. If Rome or the US Latin bishops mess with us too much, we’ll become Orthodox. We just want to be left alone to be ourselves, no matter who we are in union with.

I’m sure that’s the case. Still not sure what it has to do with what I wrote, but it’s interesting information none the less.

Peace and God bless!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I would love to see it fade away, all the way out of the Archeparchy!

U-C

So you have mentioned…

 

[Ungcsertez]

So you have mentioned…

…still holding the door open in hope of the Holy Spirit descending down and creating such a holy gust of wind that it miraculously exits the building.

…Carju nebesnyj, ut’ishitel’u, * dushe istinny…

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

9x our of ten I am left with the feeling that the desire to take a “trip down memory lane” is a disingenuous effort to evince feelings alternately of rage, sadness, or righteous victimhood.

Listen to enough stories about how our forebearers were duped by the sinister Romans you get to feeling sorry for them for alternately being such stepped upon victims or - from the sounds of it - the stupidest people to walk the earth. Listen to how well slanted versions of the stories some revel in re-telling and reminding and you begin to wonder how all of our forebearers didn’t just fall off the sides of the mountains.

The implications always seem to be clear:

• Our forebearers were duped
• The evil Romans did it
• Pre-unia, the folks involved were 100% happy with the relationship they had before
• No possible way that the unia was influenced by the fact that the East-West split was not nearly as concrete in the minds and sensibilities of people previously
• No possible way that the unia could have represented jurisdiction shifting the likes of which we still see in parish levels

The idea that we were “duped” “bribed” “cajoled” “threatened” and the like and that was the sole reason for the unias (implicitly repudiating the legitimacy of our existence today) is as tiring as it is insulting. 300+ years on, we all have had the chance to “go home”, the borders have shifted, the freedom to move on out of the Greek Catholic Churches in the New World has been present and many took that option… But give some credit, and don’t denigrate us like we are a tribe of the dumbest people on two legs.

A certain subset of polemicists love to talk about the latinizations, they never seem to bring up Russification.

A certain subset of polemicists love to talk about pressure from the Polish government, they never seem to bring up pressure from Moscow.

A certain subset of polemicists love to talk about the idea that “Latins seized on discontent” or used political pressure, they never seem to want to talk about the behaviors of opportunists in Orthodoxy who seized on internal trouble, or collaborated with regimes that suppressed Greek Catholics.

A certain subset of polemicists love to talk about current internal strife, demographic decline, or displeasure with the Greek Catholic hierarchy, they never seem all that interested in admitting that strife and discontent with hierarchs is no stranger to the non-Catholic easterners.

A certain subset of polemicists love to talk about the internal conditions and difficulties Greek Catholics faced in the Toth and Chornock splits, they never seem to bring up the contentious nature of jurisdictional squabbling and jurisdiction shifting of parishes and priests who have left communion with the Holy See.

The fashion in which this sort of polemic is so mainstream in some areas at some point just backfired with me. What seemed like a backdoor way to sow seeds of doubt and discontent after a while just left me feeling sad for people without the outward confidence in their approach to make a case for their belief system without the loudest selling points being contradistinction.

For most Catholics - at least in the English speaking world - I suspect that the East - Catholic & Orthodox - is only on the periphery of their radar, if there at all. Most in turn are vaguely aware of the great similarity, and ones with a more literate following of the JP2 papacy are as often as not all on board with the late pontiff’s call for outreach, ecumenical countact, the whole “breathe with both lungs” exhortion. They don’t spend a lot of time on apologetics against the East, they don’t have passionate attititudes against “the East”…

One blogger I particularly like who was with the Orthodox for a time puts it well:

Well, the truth is, most Roman Catholics couldn’t tell a prokimenon from a trapeza, and Orthodox convert polemicist tend to take advantage of that. Most RC’s will feel guilty, remember the injunctions of our hierarchy to be “nice”, and be fascinated with the fact that the Orthodox seem like such exotic and delightful creatures.

The same goes for Greek Catholics - struggling with our humanity and our sinful nature where no one is blameless, our situation is not now and never has been perfect. In efforts to recapture elements of our patrimony that are a part of the glory of our tradition, we have been urged to look to our Orthodox brothers and examine elements of our past in looking to our future. Preying on our insecurities, our misfortunes, or seizing on our anger or discontent in internal matters… It is poor form and sad.

Frankly, it gets very tiresome.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I’m sorry, but I don’t think that the Eastern Catholics were bribed, forced, or cajoled into Communion with the RCC any more than the Swedes, the Germans, or the Normans.

If Eastern Catholics (and I was with them for over 2 years, there is no Eastern Church where I am now) feel that oppressed and don’t want to accept Lyons, Florence, Lateran, Trent, Constance, Vatican, et al. then there is no other logical choice… they must 'Dox.

I also must admit that this attitude of oppression is found more in the converts and those who are “escaping the Novus Ordo” than in those who are cradle ECs (this is a generalization and not to be an affront to the cradle ECs who feel oppressed.) I also have found that the Ukrainians that I know don’t feel oppressed at all and love the fact that they are Catholic. The papal trip to Ukraine is immortalized in the Church Hall and the Pope’s picture is above Lubomyr Cardinal Husar’s picture, which is above Metropolitan Stephan’s, which is above the local bishop. There is no mention about how they were “forced” into submission by the Poles and Lithuanians.

The only “Latinizations” that were at the Parish were pews and a few babas who knelt at the Consecration. The rest of the church was as Byzantine as a converted baptist worship space could be.

I wonder how Blesseds Theodore Romzha, Kliment Sheptytskyj, Omeljan Kovc, et al. feel about being forced into Communion with Rome?