Eastern Catholics, Western Catholics, Original Sin, and the Immaculate Conception

[LakaYaRabb]

The Armenian Catholic Church comes from the Armenian Apostolic Church. Again, not “Orthodox”, but certainly the idea of “Apostolic Christian Church” seems to be an acceptable correlation to “Orthodox” when speaking in such a mundane arena (an internet forum).

I wrote this, you wrote this:

LakaYaRab: My point is that those Churches are not from Eastern Orthodoxy, as you had claimed. They are from traditions quite distinct from Eastern Orthodoxy, and some of their histories have been characterized by much hostility between the Eastern Orthodox and their own (the Armenians are one example of this). Remember, the term “Melkite”, or “king’s men” was an insult levied against the people who went along with the Eastern Orthodox/Catholic Church (since it began when they were the same Communion), specifically against those who followed the Byzantine Empire and adopted its Liturgy and praxis.

So my point wasn’t that those Churches weren’t from any groups called “Orthodox”, but that they weren’t from the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox and Ancient Churches of the East are a totally different thing from the Eastern Orthodox, with different traditions, practices, and cultures; Eastern Orthodoxy is only one very narrow classification, specifically the Communion of Churches that adopted/maintained the practices of Constantinople and the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.

In the future let’s try to not waste time and forum space repeating the same point, especially since the point that is bolded is something we both agree on anyway.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

The core theology of Eastern Orthodoxy is most certainly Catholic, and you’ll find me as the first defender of it when it comes under attack. Just do a search for St Gregory Palamas and my posts defending his theology as fully Catholic.

What I’m referring to, and I apologize for not making it more clear, is the kind of polemics that often creep into modern Eastern Orthodox writings, even writings that ostensibly deal with purely Eastern Orthodox issues. For example, in Fr. Alexander Schmemman’s work “The Eucharist” he does a beautiful job explaining Byzantine Liturgical tradition and practice, as well as illustrating its developments over time. He continuously peppers this work, however, with erroneous attacks on “Western” beliefs and practice. They are erroneous because they don’t represent the actual traditions of the West, at least not Western Catholicism, but he states them as fact and then sets up the traditional Eastern beliefs (which happen to be identical in these cases with the real Latin ones, such as regarding the Eucharist itself) in opposition to these paper tigers.

When such valuable works on Eastern practices and theology (so valuable that they are used in educating Eastern Catholics on the Byzantine Liturgy) are interspersed with such poisonous and erroneous accusations against other Catholics, I think we must admit that we can’t simply accept everything coming out of Eastern Orthodoxy as “representative of the Catholic Faith”.

This is equally true of Latin works, such as the Old Catholic Encyclopedia, which put forth equally erroneous and poisonous views against Byzantine and other Eastern traditions. This is what I mean by having a “Catholic response to provincial attitudes”, namely that when we do learn from a source that is particular to a tradition that may have a history of attacking other traditions that we have in our Communion, we must read them as people who belong to a Catholic Communion, a Communion of Apostolic Churches that embraces, at least ostensibly, all Apostolic traditions. It has nothing to do with reading things with a Latin filter, or an Eastern filter, and everything to do with reading things with a discerning, Catholic mind. We must be careful not to swallow the poison along with the spiritual food that nourishes and renews our traditions.

Incidentally this same point should be applied to “Latin Traditionalism”, most of which is quite Holy, but which has also produced its own polemics and distortions in recent decades. In some places these even infect Eastern Catholic communities, where “disaffected Traditional Latins” sometimes seek refuge. In such cases it’s not uncommon to find a strong push towards Latinization.

Agreed. However, not swallowing the poison is a skill yuo must develop. Further, ofte times these polemics take on a completely different meaning when you study the East within the East and not as a outsider.

In fact, I read several polemical books and talked we several Orthodox persons. Many Catholics warned me of how “mean” or “disrespectful” Orthodox are of Catholics and Eastern Catholics. I was very fearful the first couple of times I visited an Orthodox Church. Of course, all the scare tactics and polemics were infiniately overeaggerated. I was welcomed in every Orthodox Church I visited and they knew I am Melkite.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Neither of these quotes are from actual works by any author, by they represent, IMO, what you could easily encounter, and why we must be careful in our reading.

Peace and God bless!

And this is very fair and accurate! You are right to make the distinction.

The difficulty I sometimes face is with the enthusiastic new member of a Greek Catholic parish who may be a transfer from the Latin Church or - on occasion - a convert from Protestantism whose reading of such qualifiers leads to a sense of rejection of the west over and above an understanding of the complimentary natures of different spiritualities and approaches (what makes us truly “(lower case ‘c’) catholic”.

Starting with this somewhat militant contradistinctive approach, in correction of “Latinizations” (some of which are perhaps necessary evils here in “the diaspora” - we all have adopted some westernism somwhere, we are westerners now, and with a McDonalds or 10 in Mockba and Pizza Hut in Istanbul, we are becoming a world of “westerners”!) …

At any rate, what starts out as zealous protection of Byzantine patrimony against any and all real, or percieved or possibly even beneficial “latinization” ends (sometimes) with somewhat magnanimous rejection of any and all Latin differences to the point of absurdity (“well I am a Greek Catholic so I reject X, Y, & Z on the merits of my canonical enrollment in a self-governing church established as such by the Pope of Rome!”) that is incongruent with being in communion (we are not Anglicans!)…

And from there questions and problems arise to the effect of WHAT and WHOM are they reading that gives them such total confidence that what they now espouse is the truest form of Byzantine patrimony and all the rest of us who don’t share in their worldview are little more than “latiniaks”. (This is something I encounter on another forum frequently as a pro-papal Greek Catholic!)

It is good to know the differences and become comfortable with a wide variety of approaches both Byzantine and non-Byzantine. (My Greek Catholic eyes have been opened to what a “westerner” I am in the eyes of Oriental and Assyrian Christians who see me as a “Greek Roman”!) What no one seems to consider is that ultimately there is only an eyelash of difference between rabid “latiniaks” and wild-eyed “contra-latiniak vostochniks” Both have as the epicenter of their worldview and compass of theological sensibility Rome.

Maybe I am just the “good kind” of cafeteria Catholic, but sometimes in recognizing the complimentary natures of spiritualities and theologies we can be seen as being more fully Catholic still. This Greek Catholic is pleased to be able to pray the Rosary privately before a Marian icon, participate fully in the liturgical life of my parish, support the efforts of the Maronite locally to get a mission off the ground, and avail myself of the opportuntiy to go to Mass at the Cathedral accross from where I work at lunchtime for the “lunch-time low” at 12:05, and work in the spirit of the beattitudes as a soon to be member of the Knights of Columbus. I am comfortable in my own skin and don’t feel the need or see the benefit in isolating myself in a parochial and contrarian position that some - to my amazement - feel compelled to take up.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

These two sentences don’t necessarily fit together as easily as they first appear, and I certainly disagree with the first one for the reasons I pointed out above. Specifically there is much in modern Eastern Orthodoxy that is polemical and poisonous to being truly Catholic. A person who reads Fr. Romanides and takes his historical view as the gospel truth for an “Eastern perspective on history” is not going to be sitting well as a Catholic.

Another point to consider is that modern Eastern Orthodoxy has not stopped developing in its own ways, or dealing with its own issues, in the centuries since the various Eastern Catholic Churches came into Communion with Rome. The position of Constantinople and Moscow are not the same as they were then, and Churches have been subjugated, altered, renewed, ect. The core theology is mostly the same, but that isn’t the only thing that makes up Eastern Orthodoxy. This doesn’t mean that these things are invalid, but it does mean that **the modern incarnation of Eastern Orthodoxy can’t be taken for granted as applying to corresponding Eastern Catholic Churches. **For one example of this, ask a Ukrainian Catholic if the health of the Ukrainian Church is best served by being subject to Moscow.

It’s things like this that I’m referring to, not the shared theology and ancient traditions. It’s recognizing that the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have gone down some very different paths, with bad and good on both sides;** to simply accept the “Eastern Orthodox model” uncritically is to throw out the good that the Eastern Catholic Churches have found, and swallow the bad that the Eastern Orthodox have found** (though of course it would also mean receiving the good and losing the bad, but ideally we could get a good-good combination going

Note on the bolded parts:
-Holy Orthodox works within a certain mindset, a phronema. So does Eastern Catholicism. One major influence on both is Commuunion with Rome. Eastern Catholics have it, other Apostolic Churches do not. The mindset of both has to be understood from within.
-The modern incarnation of Holy Orthodoxy has developed, but not in isolation. In many of the same ways, modern Eastern Catholicism has developed. We all developed alonside and with each other, not in isolation. Specifically the Melkites. The Melkites have come very close.
-Well, duh. No one wants to poison the well. However, a unilateral effort will correct the bad things. We need to stop focusing on “Who said what and hurt my feelings” and focus on the core of Truth that brings us together. There will always be polemics.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

This may be where our disconnect is occurring: it seemed that I was referring to theology when I was referring to the practical matters.

Brother Ghosty,

You and I spend too much time “discussing” to end up agreeing. That’s just too practical.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

Simply going to texts printed by Orthodox publishers alone cannot be the litmus test. I have seen more than a few well meaning but misinformed Greek Catholics in an effort to “Byzantanize” latch on to the most virulent and polemic contradistinctive theologies and ideas. I am always left to wonder how they can feel so confident that some of these ideologies are representitive of a true Byzantine patrimony.

Well, they may have attached themselves to something virulent, but the opposite is true in the print world. With the exception of Melkite publications, many articles, papers and boks by Eastern Catholics are more latinizing than byzantinizing. Sadly, the effort is to prove that are really Catholic.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

Unlike the West, which left aside the Apostolic tradition in favor of Scholasticism and began focusing on the gore of the Passion and Crucifixion, the East retains the original and more edifying focus on the Glory of God and our participation in Divinity, in such events as the Transfiguration and Resurrection".

You always find a way to make me laugh Ghosty, lol.

But seriously, Catholics need to be more confident in thier traditions. Especially when dealing with Holy Orthodoxy. UNderstanding this would really help CAtholics alot. Sadly, CAtholics, both East and West, are not confident enough due to poor catechesis. IN the West, the stripping of ancient traditions has deeply affected catechesis and spirituality.

Didn’t anybody understand His Beatitude Patriarch Alexi II’s comments on the “restoration” of the Extraordinary Form? He praised it. I wonder why?

It’s about understanding the mindset from within. Not merely focusing on the words that are polemical.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Well, they may have attached themselves to something virulent, but the opposite is true in the print world. With the exception of Melkite publications, many articles, papers and boks by Eastern Catholics are more latinizing than byzantinizing. Sadly, the effort is to prove that are really Catholic.

[Playfully] as measured how?

 

[East_and_West]

Eastern Catholics, whatever **our **tradition, definitely have our own approach and language…

Have you changed cannonical enrollment?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Question, I have come to believe that Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are not places, but all states of being in Hades/Sheol. Is this correct from both a Western and Eastern Catholic point of view?

 

[Ghosty]

LakaYaRab:

In the future let’s try to not waste time and forum space repeating the same point, especially since the point that is bolded is something we both agree on anyway.

Perhaps in the future you should just say “I meant Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.”

I was just responding to the statement that they were all from Eastern Orthodoxy at some point, which as an Armenian myself is a phrase I bristle at despite practicing in a Church that is quite proud of its Eastern Orthodox heritage.

In fact, I read several polemical books and talked we several Orthodox persons. Many Catholics warned me of how “mean” or “disrespectful” Orthodox are of Catholics and Eastern Catholics. I was very fearful the first couple of times I visited an Orthodox Church. Of course, all the scare tactics and polemics were infiniately overeaggerated. I was welcomed in every Orthodox Church I visited and they knew I am Melkite.

Yeah, I definitely don’t buy into such characterizations of Eastern Orthodox. As I’ve said before, we have Eastern Orthodox families at our Melkite mission, I have personal friends who are Eastern Orthodox, and I can honestly say that I’ve never heard any of them say even a slightly polemical thing against the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I’ve heard more support of the Catholic Church from some of them than I have from practicing Catholics!

What I’m refering to is definitely just the polemics one may come across when trying to better understand Eastern heritage, and I agree that resistance to it must be developed. Sadly, some don’t develop it in time, and others react negatively by rejecting Eastern Orthodox insights all together. I don’t think either reaction is going to define the Eastern Churches in the long run.

But seriously, Catholics need to be more confident in thier traditions. Especially when dealing with Holy Orthodoxy. UNderstanding this would really help CAtholics alot. Sadly, CAtholics, both East and West, are not confident enough due to poor catechesis. IN the West, the stripping of ancient traditions has deeply affected catechesis and spirituality.

I agree, and can’t think of anything to add.

You and I spend too much time “discussing” to end up agreeing. That’s just too practical.

And edifying!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

Have you changed cannonical enrollment?

No, but my practice is now almost entirely Melkite, and actually has been for awhile now. It’s hard for me to think of the traditions as anything other than my own at this point, though I still feel the same way about the Dominican tradition as well.

I don’t feel attached to the Latin Church in general, however. The Melkite Church and tradition is more and more my spiritual home and nourishment, even if the Dominican Order seems to reflect my personality and approach.

As I told a friend who is a seminarian, “I want to be a mendicant friar who thinks and prays like a Greek monk. In other words, I want to be like St. Dominic”

Peace and God bless!

 

[LakaYaRabb]

“I want to be a mendicant friar who thinks and prays like a Greek monk. In other words, I want to be like St. Dominic”

 

[East_and_West]

No, but my practice is now almost entirely Melkite, and actually has been for awhile now. It’s hard for me to think of the traditions as anything other than my own at this point, though I still feel the same way about the Dominican tradition as well.

I don’t feel attached to the Latin Church in general, however. The Melkite Church and tradition is more and more my spiritual home and nourishment, even if the Dominican Order seems to reflect my personality and approach.

As I told a friend who is a seminarian, “I want to be a mendicant friar who thinks and prays like a Greek monk. In other words, I want to be like St. Dominic”

Peace and God bless!

I have had this problem. I very much loved my Ruthenian parish. However, when I went to the “Come and See” weekend for the Dominican Order, Fr. Steve specifically told me that I need to get myself back to practicing my faith in a Latin parish if i was interested in the order.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I have had this problem. I very much loved my Ruthenian parish. However, when I went to the “Come and See” weekend for the Dominican Order, Fr. Steve specifically told me that I need to get myself back to practicing my faith in a Latin parish if i was interested in the order.

But that’s because the Dominicans are Roman Order.

 

[Ghosty]

I have had this problem. I very much loved my Ruthenian parish. However, when I went to the “Come and See” weekend for the Dominican Order, Fr. Steve specifically told me that I need to get myself back to practicing my faith in a Latin parish if i was interested in the order.

It’s definitely solid advice, but there are Eastern Catholics in the Dominican Order. I know of a Melkite and a Ukrainian in the Western Province, for example.

Unfortunately there aren’t any examples of mendicant orders in the Eastern Churches, so far as I know. The West has its own adaptation of “Eastern” monasticism in the Benedictine Orders, maybe the East could have an adaptation (not direct import) of the mendicant brotherhoods.

Peace and God bless!

 

[East_and_West]

It’s definitely solid advice, but there are Eastern Catholics in the Dominican Order. I know of a Melkite and a Ukrainian in the Western Province, for example.

Unfortunately there aren’t any examples of mendicant orders in the Eastern Churches, so far as I know. The West has its own adaptation of “Eastern” monasticism in the Benedictine Orders, maybe the East could have an adaptation (not direct import) of the mendicant brotherhoods.

Peace and God bless!

Maybe he’s just trying to prevent me from having multiple spiritual personalities. LOL. I have developed a mixture of western and eastern spiritualities and theologies. LOL

 

[LakaYaRabb]

Ghosty,

You don’t need to join an order or a brotherhood to beg for your food and own nothing.

Eastern Monasticism is rigorous. Read the recent Sophia article on Our Lady of Solitude Monastery. It is under the Melkites. The head monk, Hieromonk Angelus is bi-ritual. They are very poor too. Might be exactly what you are looking for.

Contact them and visit the Monastery!

 

[East_and_West]

Ghosty,

You don’t need to join an order or a brotherhood to beg for your food and own nothing.

Eastern Monasticism is rigorous. Read the recent Sophia article on Our Lady of Solitude Monastery. It is under the Melkites. The head monk, Hieromonk Angelus is bi-ritual. They are very poor too. Might be exactly what you are looking for.

Contact them and visit the Monastery!

I am not sure that is what he is looking for. The Dominicans, in which he is interested, are not very poor. They do live a simple life but certainly not the life of a Franciscan.