Q
Qwikness
Guest
What is the population of Eastern Catholics? Are they equal in number to the Orthodox? I suspect there is an imbalance.
- Status
A
a_pilgrim
Guest
Alexius,
You are correct. The annual numbers published by the Catholic Church regarding membership in each of the 23 sui iuris Churches do, in fact, show a generally progressive downward trend with regard to the memberships of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches…
…BUT (and this is a BIG “but!”)…
…I feel that those numbers must be viewed with the proverbial grain of salt. Here’s why:
Many Eastern Catholics (at least in the USA) are currently worshipping on a regular basis in Latin parishes and, as a result, are recorded “on the books” as Latin Catholics, *even though they are officially **still *Eastern Catholics! As you are probably aware, any Catholic individual is absolutely free to worship in the tradition of any of the 23 sui iuris Churches and, in fact, may even register as a parishioner of said parish. Although this parish registration does not change his or her official canonical enrollment, it does slant the numbers you speak of. A Byzantine Catholic individual, for example, may spend his or her entire life worshipping in the Latin tradition - by Church Law, he or she still remains a Byzantine Catholic, not a Latin (Roman) Catholic!
I’ve heard it said that on any given Sunday in America there are more Byzantine Catholics worshipping in Latin parishes than there are in Byzantine parishes - and I believe it. The sad truth is, many (if not most) of them don’t even know that they are Byzantine Catholics. They believe that their registration in a Latin parish “automatically” makes them Latins - it does not. I actually have friends and family, canonical Byzantines, in this very situation with whom no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise. They believe that since they have fully adopted the Latin worship praxis as their own, they’ve de facto “changed” rites. And, for the most part, the Latin parishes that they’ve joined make the same assumption… and it is from these parish registration records that the (faulty) numbers come.
Many of these Latin-worshipping canonical Byzantines go on to have their children receive the Sacraments of Initiation within these Latin parishes, believing that since their children were baptized in a Latin ceremony, they must officially be Latin Catholics. Not true! This is contrary to Church Law which states that children of a Byzantine Catholic father who are baptized into the Catholic Church are themselves officially and canonically Byzantine Catholics, regardless of which sui iuris Church tradition the Sacrament is administered in. Add a few generations of children into this scenario and one can easily see how entire Byzantine families can become “lost” vis a vis the numbers published by Rome.
It seems that the only time that the facts regarding the actual canonical enrollment of these “lost” individuals surface is if and when any of these individuals pursue Holy Orders. We have had cases documented on this very board of individuals attempting to pursue ordination within the Latin church, only to find that they were denied because pre-ordination research uncovered the fact that they were actually not Latin but Eastern Catholics (Holy Orders being the only Sacrament that must be received within one’s own ritual Church). Even at that, how many generations will it take before that research fails to delve back far enough to uncover their true canonical enrollment? And when that point is reached, they and their families will become lost forever to their true canonical heritage… a “loophole,” so to speak, with regard to the Catholic Church’s own laws regarding canonical enrollment.
…continued…
A
a_pilgrim
Guest
So, how’d we get here? I see three main reasons:
1. The increased mobility of our society over the last several decades. Folks just don’t stay around the ol’ neighborhood anymore. And when they move, they generally seek out the nearest Catholic parish, regardless of sui iuris affiliation (invariably a Latin parish, just because of the sheer magnitude of the Latin Catholic Church), in which to worship. These Latin parishes are naturally quite delighted to receive new parishioners, and welcome them fully as one of their own (i.e. as Latin Catholics).
2. The “few and far between” nature of Byzantine Catholic temples across the country. I’m one of the fortunate ones… my nearest Byzantine parish is just under an hour’s drive away from my home. Many of the dislocated Byzantines of which I speak don’t even have a parish in their entire new home state, let alone within “do-able” driving distance!
3. A sadly deficient lack of knowledge of Church Law on the part of both the Catholic faithful and the clergy. As I said before, in many cases these dislocated Byzantines assume that by joining a Latin parish they themselves become Latin Catholics - sadly, the clergy at these parishes in many cases assume the same thing!
So, Alexius, even though the statistics do show yearly declines in the numbers of Eastern Catholics, my guess is that the actual declines are not nearly as severe as the numbers indicate (remember… every Byzantine that shows up as a Latin on the report impacts the numbers by a factor of two - not just one fewer Byzantine, but one more Latin as well!). Add to that the generations of canonical Byzantine children who were baptized in Latin churches and thus recorded as Latin Catholics, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the true nature of the statistics, if they were able to be accurately reported, wouldn’t actually show a year-by-year increase in Eastern Catholics!
Sadly, it seems we’ll never actually know, as the ever-increasing “loophole” remains…
1. The increased mobility of our society over the last several decades. Folks just don’t stay around the ol’ neighborhood anymore. And when they move, they generally seek out the nearest Catholic parish, regardless of sui iuris affiliation (invariably a Latin parish, just because of the sheer magnitude of the Latin Catholic Church), in which to worship. These Latin parishes are naturally quite delighted to receive new parishioners, and welcome them fully as one of their own (i.e. as Latin Catholics).
2. The “few and far between” nature of Byzantine Catholic temples across the country. I’m one of the fortunate ones… my nearest Byzantine parish is just under an hour’s drive away from my home. Many of the dislocated Byzantines of which I speak don’t even have a parish in their entire new home state, let alone within “do-able” driving distance!
3. A sadly deficient lack of knowledge of Church Law on the part of both the Catholic faithful and the clergy. As I said before, in many cases these dislocated Byzantines assume that by joining a Latin parish they themselves become Latin Catholics - sadly, the clergy at these parishes in many cases assume the same thing!
So, Alexius, even though the statistics do show yearly declines in the numbers of Eastern Catholics, my guess is that the actual declines are not nearly as severe as the numbers indicate (remember… every Byzantine that shows up as a Latin on the report impacts the numbers by a factor of two - not just one fewer Byzantine, but one more Latin as well!). Add to that the generations of canonical Byzantine children who were baptized in Latin churches and thus recorded as Latin Catholics, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the true nature of the statistics, if they were able to be accurately reported, wouldn’t actually show a year-by-year increase in Eastern Catholics!
Sadly, it seems we’ll never actually know, as the ever-increasing “loophole” remains…
G
gferrer
Guest
Glancing over the statistics, what is really drastic is the decrease in the American contingent of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. The four American eparchies are down by two-thirds or more in the last 16 years.
This saddens me. While I am not a member of that church, I have found great joy in attending their liturgies when I have the opportunity.
I would guess that many of them are going Latin rite (wanting to be “normal” Catholics), while others are going Orthodox. I’ve definitely encountered a number in the first category over the years. But that is only a guess with no deep content whatsoever.
A
Amadeus
Guest
Offhand, Eastern Catholics number about 17 million worldwide.
The Eastern Orthodox are close to about 200 million and the Oriental Orthodox number about 50 million.
V
vocatio
Guest
I understand you now, I agree as well now that I realize what you were responding to. I guess we can all be knuckleheads at times.
PAX
Y
yeshua
Guest
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
I hate the thought of the Eastern Rites declining in numbers in the U.S. I think they are a precious gift to the Church, and a reminder of the universality of the Church.
But I will also say this. The U.S. is not quite as complete a “melting pot” as it would like to consider itself, but in many ways it is, when there are no barriers to the “melting” process. Among Catholics of any origin, the barriers are very low, and that tends to cause people to gravitate toward the greater mass.
My ancestors were Irish, Italian and Alsatian (ethnic German French) As Catherine the Great said of Germans “A German is like a willow stick. Put it anywhere in the ground and it will grow.” It will also adapt. Germans are the largest single ethnic group in the U.S., and yet the least distinguishable. They “went American” faster than anyone. My Irish ancestors did not appreciate the Brits at all, and were suspicious of the “Yankees”. Yet, they learned English, most of them, over there. When they got here, they remained “sort of” Irish and thought of themselves as Irish, but, as I read somewhere “As soon as an Irishman gets some money in his pocket, he becomes English” We speak the language. Our underlying culture is English. Now even our eating habits are largely English. So the Irish, too, flowed to “the center”; a kind of Brit/American melange. Southern Italians are physically very distinguishable from northern Europeans, but Northern Italians aren’t. Northern Italian culture isn’t a thing like Sicilian culture. Romans refer to them (us) as “those Germans”. So, not being of large numbers in the U.S. anyway, the Northern Italians tend to flow to the gravity center too, and differences disappear. Ultimately, there tends to be a kind of American Catholic culture that’s mildly Brit in some ways, but unique to itself.
But then, Brits are pretty Latin; thoroughly Latin in culture, law, liturgies and even a significant part of the language. Americans, perhaps, are even more so. Even American protestants are. Ask the EOs. To them, whose cultures are profoundly different from Western culture, “we all look alike to them”.
The gravitation to the “center” in America is something that has affected all our old ethnic groups and has erased a lot of differences. I would like to see the Eastern Catholics keep their traditions and liturgies. But to the extent they “Americanize”, they are going to tend to flow to the center, at least at times. I have tried to study older church architecture, and I can pretty well tell now which churches were orignally German, Irish, Italian or Polish. But the liturgies are all “American Catholic” and cultures are pretty much all now American Catholic too. But just as Roman culture accepted and tolerated cultures within it, despite its own pervasiveness, it is my feeling that American Catholic culture can and should aid in the preservation of the Eastern identites and liturgies, but should also welcome the people of those rites into the American Catholic culture and ways, as they wish, even if it’s only from time to time.
But I will also say this. The U.S. is not quite as complete a “melting pot” as it would like to consider itself, but in many ways it is, when there are no barriers to the “melting” process. Among Catholics of any origin, the barriers are very low, and that tends to cause people to gravitate toward the greater mass.
My ancestors were Irish, Italian and Alsatian (ethnic German French) As Catherine the Great said of Germans “A German is like a willow stick. Put it anywhere in the ground and it will grow.” It will also adapt. Germans are the largest single ethnic group in the U.S., and yet the least distinguishable. They “went American” faster than anyone. My Irish ancestors did not appreciate the Brits at all, and were suspicious of the “Yankees”. Yet, they learned English, most of them, over there. When they got here, they remained “sort of” Irish and thought of themselves as Irish, but, as I read somewhere “As soon as an Irishman gets some money in his pocket, he becomes English” We speak the language. Our underlying culture is English. Now even our eating habits are largely English. So the Irish, too, flowed to “the center”; a kind of Brit/American melange. Southern Italians are physically very distinguishable from northern Europeans, but Northern Italians aren’t. Northern Italian culture isn’t a thing like Sicilian culture. Romans refer to them (us) as “those Germans”. So, not being of large numbers in the U.S. anyway, the Northern Italians tend to flow to the gravity center too, and differences disappear. Ultimately, there tends to be a kind of American Catholic culture that’s mildly Brit in some ways, but unique to itself.
But then, Brits are pretty Latin; thoroughly Latin in culture, law, liturgies and even a significant part of the language. Americans, perhaps, are even more so. Even American protestants are. Ask the EOs. To them, whose cultures are profoundly different from Western culture, “we all look alike to them”.
The gravitation to the “center” in America is something that has affected all our old ethnic groups and has erased a lot of differences. I would like to see the Eastern Catholics keep their traditions and liturgies. But to the extent they “Americanize”, they are going to tend to flow to the center, at least at times. I have tried to study older church architecture, and I can pretty well tell now which churches were orignally German, Irish, Italian or Polish. But the liturgies are all “American Catholic” and cultures are pretty much all now American Catholic too. But just as Roman culture accepted and tolerated cultures within it, despite its own pervasiveness, it is my feeling that American Catholic culture can and should aid in the preservation of the Eastern identites and liturgies, but should also welcome the people of those rites into the American Catholic culture and ways, as they wish, even if it’s only from time to time.
A
Alexius
Guest
Yes, the Ruthenian Church is very interesting. I used to not like the mix of true Byzantine with western influence, but now I think it makes for a very nice experience…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
M
mgy100
Guest
References please.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Not trying to start an argument, Amadeus, but is that really true? My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of EO are Russian. There are about 150 million people in Russia. I further understand that something like 1-3% of Russians actually practice their faith, at all, ever, though more doubtless consider themselves Orthodox in an ethnic, cultural sort of way, rather like a Jew who is an atheist still considers himself a Jew.
If that’s so, it seems to me, then, that perhaps the OO outnumber the EO, and the Eastern Catholics outnumber the EO as well, though perhaps not the OO.
I’m not trying to make this a numbers game, but people seem to be used to the idea that the Eastern Catholics are very small in numbers whereas, comparatively, that might not be the case at all.
K
Kielbasi
Guest
A couple of things I would suspect would explain those stats. Here in the US as well as other western nations, intermarriage between Latin rite and eastern rite Catholics are commonplace enough. 1. The offspring of these unions are more likely to be Latin rite which have schools and other facilities that the smaller eastern rite churches don’t in the US.
2. The Eastern rites are ethnically based, and ethnic identity breaks down within a few generations as the children see themselves as Americans rather than Ruthenian or other ethnicity.
3. The USA is a huge country, and quite mobile. Eastern rite Catholics are likely to move to parts of the country where their particular rite isn’t offered and doesn’t have any churches at all. They aren’t the insular communities working in mines or mills they were a hundred years ago.
The US and other western countries were originally all part of the Latin rite, and the Catholics who live here are just more adopted with the Catholic religious history of the US, regardless of what their own particular bloodlines are.
In recent decades, some Latin rite Catholics have become somewhat dissatisfied with the current Latin rite liturgy and have been going to Greek Catholic churches. That phenomenon is really an abberration on the long term trend.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
<>
There is no such thing as “the Eastern Rite” or “the Oriental Rite”–terms that I’ve seen used here and elsewhere.
There are Eastern LITURGIES (note the plural), and sui juris Churches (again, note the plural), each with her own Liturgical use.
Yes, most are Byzantine. But the Coptic and Maronite Liturgies are quite distinct from the Byzantine and from each other, for example.
There is no such thing as “the Eastern Rite” or “the Oriental Rite”–terms that I’ve seen used here and elsewhere.
There are Eastern LITURGIES (note the plural), and sui juris Churches (again, note the plural), each with her own Liturgical use.
Yes, most are Byzantine. But the Coptic and Maronite Liturgies are quite distinct from the Byzantine and from each other, for example.
V
vocatio
Guest
When I first started learning about the Eastern Churches I really ticked off a few priests. They acted so offended…that’s like being offended because someone doesn’t understand Calculus when all you know is algebra.
Teach us…Don’t Beat us.
Many years ago someone starting speaking spanish to me. I looked at them like they were being silly. They told me I should learn my native language. I just smiled and told them that my grandfather spoke about 6 or 7 languages but I took French in college. I have an Austrian last name…
It’s best not to presume everyone is culturally literate. And for us Americans…be a little less pushy about it. Maybe its a southern or a Texan thing.
Teach us…Don’t Beat us.
Many years ago someone starting speaking spanish to me. I looked at them like they were being silly. They told me I should learn my native language. I just smiled and told them that my grandfather spoke about 6 or 7 languages but I took French in college. I have an Austrian last name…
It’s best not to presume everyone is culturally literate. And for us Americans…be a little less pushy about it. Maybe its a southern or a Texan thing.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
It might be, Kielbasi, that the time has come for more real (vs artificial) diversity in liturgies, based on solid traditions. Seems to me bishops should greatly encourage Novus Ordo, TLM, Eastern Catholic, Anglican Use liturgies and also strongly encourage people of the various ones to attend and support the others. There are no Eastern Catholic parishes within hundreds of miles of where I live. But I would not be able to keep myself from attending from tme to time if I could. I suspect there are deep wisdoms and insights in every single one of them, and we could not help but be enriched, spiritually, by doing that. I suspect each is a gleaming facet of but one jewel.
M
mgy100
Guest
It is really hard to play statistics. In my area people moved far away. Hence Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes have had population declines. For years immigration supported higher numbers of parishoners. People do not generally have 5-10+ kids as they did in my Grandparents’ generation. People move, sometimes they take the churches with them, many times they didn’t. You can literally see the movement of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parishoners by simply seeing that the parishes moved west, and along I-80. As coal and steel died in the East people moved west and south. Many in my Orthodox and Greek Catholic family simply joined the Roman Catholic parish nearest them when they moved away. Why? There were no Greek Catholic or Orthodox churches where they moved.
In some places it took Byzcaths years to establish Eastern communities. State College, PA is an example. For years the Byzantine Catholics that moved into the university town simply attended the Roman Catholic Our Lady of Victory parish until two years ago when they had enough organization and support to make a mission community (St. Basil’s) and now they meet at the Roman Catholic Church and have a weekly liturgy.
The best thing we can do is take a friend to church or pick up an elderly person who hasn’t gone because no one has offered her a ride!
In some places it took Byzcaths years to establish Eastern communities. State College, PA is an example. For years the Byzantine Catholics that moved into the university town simply attended the Roman Catholic Our Lady of Victory parish until two years ago when they had enough organization and support to make a mission community (St. Basil’s) and now they meet at the Roman Catholic Church and have a weekly liturgy.
The best thing we can do is take a friend to church or pick up an elderly person who hasn’t gone because no one has offered her a ride!
K
Kielbasi
Guest
There is also the “mixed marriage” situation which cuts down the number of Eastern rite catholics every year.
Unless someone lives in a real tight knit community, an Eastern rite catholic is a lot more likely to marry a Latin rite Catholic than another eastern riter. And since the tight knit mining and steel mill communities were breaking up from even before the mills closed, you can figure the math out for yourself.
The mixed marriages are American families, and America is a western nation, and the rite of the church which is most associated with the west is the Latin rite. Our predecessor civilization was Britain, a Latin rite country.
It would seem as if many such "mixed " families would be real open to adopting the traditionally “normal” rite for English speaking people.
Unless someone lives in a real tight knit community, an Eastern rite catholic is a lot more likely to marry a Latin rite Catholic than another eastern riter. And since the tight knit mining and steel mill communities were breaking up from even before the mills closed, you can figure the math out for yourself.
The mixed marriages are American families, and America is a western nation, and the rite of the church which is most associated with the west is the Latin rite. Our predecessor civilization was Britain, a Latin rite country.
It would seem as if many such "mixed " families would be real open to adopting the traditionally “normal” rite for English speaking people.
I
Irish_Melkite
Guest
Ridgerunner,
The issue of “considering” oneself to be Orthodox is, frankly, no different than the millions who “consider” themselves to be Catholic - whether Latin or Eastern/Oriental.
Keep in mind also that most countries in which Oriental Catholics originate (Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Armenia) are principally populated by their Orthodox counterparts. The Syriacs originate in nations whose Christian population is divided among several Churches - including Maronites, both Eastern Catholics (Melkites) and Orthodox (Antiochian), as well as their Syriac Orthodox counterparts.
With regard to Eastern Catholics, several Churches - the Albanian, Belarusin, Bulgarian, Greek, Hungarian, Italo-Graeco-Albania, Russian, and Slovak Churches are relatively few (some are outright miniscule) in number. The Georgian Church, with less than 500 faithful remaining and no clergy, will be a historical footnote in our lifetime. The Ruthenian Church is small in its homeland and its American jurisdictions are losing faithful and have been for some time.
Many years,
Neil
A
Alexius
Guest
I figure that a large number of Ruthenians have left for Orthodoxy or Latin parishes, but what about the Georgians? What has happened to them? It seems that perhaps the movement to come to Rome was unsuccessful for them, no?
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
- Status