Eastern influence in Latin Catholic church

[Paul_theApostle]

Seeing the difference between the NO Mass and say the Eastern Divine Liturgy ,have the Latins lost their liturgical traditions because they lost unity with the Orthodox,who have held liturgical tradition?

If the Orthodox and Latins united or if its Gods will for them to grow closer together again,do you think the Latin church would return to more older liturgical worship?

Have the Eastern Catholics had any influence in the worship of the Latin churches?

Even now in the Mass the reply ‘And also with you’ has been changed like the Orthodox say 'And with your spirit" and using translations closer to the old Latin

Most of the Eastern Churches are so beautiful and colorful inside with plenty of candles ,icons ,iconastasis,oil lamps whereas some new modern Latin churches are not even shaped like a traditional church and they are pretty bare

Surely if the East and west churches became together again the Latins could learn a few things from the East regarding Church decoration and liturgical worship?

 

[Warrenton]

Seeing the difference between the NO Mass and say the Eastern Divine Liturgy ,have the Latins lost their liturgical traditions because they lost unity with the Orthodox,who have held liturgical tradition?

“Archtraditionalist” Solange Hertz posed exactly the same question, and concluded “yes.”

If the Orthodox and Latins united or if its Gods will for them to grow closer together again,do you think the Latin church would return to more older liturgical worship?

Yes.

Have the Eastern Catholics had any influence in the worship of the Latin churches?

Kyrie eleison.

Most of the Eastern Churches are so beautiful and colorful inside with plenty of candles ,icons ,iconastasis,oil lamps whereas some new modern Latin churches are not even shaped like a traditional church and they are pretty bare

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed.

Surely if the East and west churches became together again the Latins could learn a few things from the East regarding Church decoration and liturgical worship?

Who could doubt it?

 

[Vico]

…have the Latins lost their liturgical traditions because they lost unity with the Orthodox, who have held liturgical tradition?

…do you think the Latin church would return to more older liturgical worship?

Have the Eastern Catholics had any influence in the worship of the Latin churches?

…Surely if the East and west churches became together again the Latins could learn a few things from the East regarding Church decoration and liturgical worship?

The Latin tradition was different from early on, and the liturgy was reorganized by Pope Gregory I. (540-604 A.D.)

The Mass of Pope Paul VI is a return to a more simpler liturgy more like ancient times. The canon II is composed from the ancient Roman liturgy.

The Mass of Pope Paul VI includes canon III based on the Coptic liturgy and canon IV based on the liturgy of St. Basil.

It does seem that the Latin Church is occassionally using some icon styles.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

The Mass of Pope Paul VI is a return to a more simpler liturgy more like ancient times. The canon II is composed from the ancient Roman liturgy.

QUOTE]

When i am at a NO Mass with no singing,i think of how it was at the last supper,or when they "Broke bread " in Acts

Would a no singing NO Mass be more similar to the last supper then a 3 hour divine liturgy with singing and chanting and the preist with his back to the people?

 

[ConstantineTG]

There was singing in the Last Supper

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 26:30[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Seeing the difference between the NO Mass and say the Eastern Divine Liturgy ,have the Latins lost their liturgical traditions because they lost unity with the Orthodox,who have held liturgical tradition?

If the Orthodox and Latins united or if its Gods will for them to grow closer together again,do you think the Latin church would return to more older liturgical worship?

Have the Eastern Catholics had any influence in the worship of the Latin churches?

Even now in the Mass the reply ‘And also with you’ has been changed like the Orthodox say 'And with your spirit" and using translations closer to the old Latin

Most of the Eastern Churches are so beautiful and colorful inside with plenty of candles ,icons ,iconastasis,oil lamps whereas some new modern Latin churches are not even shaped like a traditional church and they are pretty bare

Surely if the East and west churches became together again the Latins could learn a few things from the East regarding Church decoration and liturgical worship?

There is a difference between what the Council fathers at Vatican II intended and what actually happened. A certain group of “liturgists” seemed to have hijacked the Church’s liturgy from the 1970’s. Result: the Mass not celebrated as was intended. A, as you call it, NO Mass can be celebrated ad orientem, incense can be used, there’s plenty of opportunity for chanting, and the Mass can be celebrated with noble dignity. These same people are also responsible, colluding with modern architects, who have produced other monstrosities in addition to poor churches. So now we have churches that don’t look like churches, no stained glass, no statues, sometimes no stations of the cross, no crucifixes, no proper confessionals, something that looks more akin to a dining table than an altar, no votive candles. I could go on but I’ll keep my blood pressure down.

 

[Aramis]

Seeing the difference between the NO Mass and say the Eastern Divine Liturgy ,have the Latins lost their liturgical traditions because they lost unity with the Orthodox,who have held liturgical tradition?

If the Orthodox and Latins united or if its Gods will for them to grow closer together again,do you think the Latin church would return to more older liturgical worship?

Have the Eastern Catholics had any influence in the worship of the Latin churches?

Even now in the Mass the reply ‘And also with you’ has been changed like the Orthodox say 'And with your spirit" and using translations closer to the old Latin

Most of the Eastern Churches are so beautiful and colorful inside with plenty of candles ,icons ,iconastasis,oil lamps whereas some new modern Latin churches are not even shaped like a traditional church and they are pretty bare

Surely if the East and west churches became together again the Latins could learn a few things from the East regarding Church decoration and liturgical worship?

The changes you reference are NOT changes of the Roman Rite, merely of a particular bad translation (the ICEL translation of the early 1970’s, which Romans in the US and Canada have been stuck with for almost 40 years) being replaced with a correct translation.

Syncretism, no matter the direction, is a forbidden thing in the Catholic Church. What is Roman needs to stay Roman, what is Byzantine stays Byzantine, what is Syriac stays Syriac, what is Alexandrian stays Alexandrian, and what is Armenian stays Armenian. All change within a rite comes from within. (Syncretism is, in church terms, the mixing of the various Rites.)

The Roman “new missal” of Pope Paul VI was not a new rite, but a response to the concerns of the majority of the Roman bishops. It is, when not translated badly, a very reverent expansion and revision of the Roman Rite, to introduce more educational content into the expression of the Roman Mass… a lack noted easily by comparison to the Byzantine liturgies, but one that was addressed in a very different method than the Byzantine Rite uses.

The Orthodox Churches walked away from Rome. Not all at once, either, tho the main split was “the Great Schism”… but the unity had been tenuous for centuries. Slowly, the various Byzantine Churches severed their ties with Rome…

Reunification of the Orthodox can only happen in two ways:

1. a parish or diocese at a time, as with the recent additions to the Chaldean Catholic Church from the Assyrian Church of the East.
2. by Corporate decision to accept all that the Church requires. (And that requires, first, admitting that they have a wrong understanding, as they claim we are heretics.)

That which the Orthodox Churches have and Rome lacks, it all is present in the Eastern Catholic Churches in Union, save that the Orthodox have their accusations of heresy, their sometimes questionable ecclesiology, and a lack of fullness of communion with Rome. Rome does not “need” the Orthodox; Rome needs to call all Christians home, but the church in union is already possessed of the fullness of Truth.

Even if some particular areas have had issues, as with many Roman dioceses in the US, Canada, the UK, and Australia.

 

[I_Thirst]

no statues, sometimes no stations of the cross, no crucifixes, no proper confessionals,

You’ve just described the majority of Eastern Catholic Churches, who often by tradition don’t have these things (many of which are in Latin ones), yet they are still Catholic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’ve just described the majority of Eastern Catholic Churches, who often by tradition don’t have these things (many of which are in Latin ones), yet they are still Catholic.

There are crucifixes in EC parishes, its mandatory. Remember that crucifix doesn’t mean a 3D image of Christ, exclusively. It could be 3D or 2D. The crucifixes in an Eastern parish is, of course, 2D. There is one on the altar and one on the proskomedia table. Also on the tetrapod, and sometimes the processional crucifix is somewhere in the nave. Also, Byzantine crucifixes are 2-sided, with one side being the Ressure-fix that many Trad-Caths hate. But its not a Protestant invention for sure. But its only proper to face the Resure-fix during Pascha. Not all year 'round like some RC parishes do.

 

[Cavaradossi]

This article may have some relevance here. archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Eastern%20Presuppositions.pdf

 

[Warrenton]

[When i am at a NO Mass with no singing,i think of how it was at the last supper,or when they "Broke bread " in Acts

Would a no singing NO Mass be more similar to the last supper then a 3 hour divine liturgy with singing and chanting and the preist with his back to the people?

The apostles were probably reclining on something like a couch during the last supper. And of course, someone left in the middle of it. It be a bizzare service if we placed sofas in the churches, and then at an appointed time, someone ran to fetch the police to arrest the priest.

The mass is not a re-enactment of the last supper in the way that people gather together to re-enact a civil war battle. The mass combines the traditional sabbath celebrations of our Jewish forefathers in faith with Christ’s sacrifice, and provides us an opportunity to praise God.
[/quote]

 

[Warrenton]

You’ve just described the majority of Eastern Catholic Churches, who often by tradition don’t have these things (many of which are in Latin ones), yet they are still Catholic.

Go to the St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Washington DC website and look at the pictures of the church.

Then go to the Los Angeles Catholic Cathedral website and look at the pictures.

They are completely different animals.

 

[I_Thirst]

There are crucifixes in EC parishes, its mandatory. Remember that crucifix doesn’t mean a 3D image of Christ, exclusively. It could be 3D or 2D. The crucifixes in an Eastern parish is, of course, 2D. There is one on the altar and one on the proskomedia table. Also on the tetrapod, and sometimes the processional crucifix is somewhere in the nave. Also, Byzantine crucifixes are 2-sided, with one side being the Ressure-fix that many Trad-Caths hate. But its not a Protestant invention for sure. But its only proper to face the Resure-fix during Pascha. Not all year 'round like some RC parishes do.

Ya know, I went to my local UGCC today and there was a crucifix right there on the tetrapod.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

You’ve just described the majority of Eastern Catholic Churches, who often by tradition don’t have these things (many of which are in Latin ones), yet they are still Catholic.

I am aware of the differences between the different Catholic churches. I do not think that the Eastern Catholic churches (or the Oriental Catholic churches) are any less (or any more) Catholic than the Latin Catholic Church. I was responding to a post about a change that had occurred in the Latin Catholic Church. That is why I mentioned changes to the interior of Latin Catholic churches.

 

[I_Thirst]

I am aware of the differences between the different Catholic churches. I do not think that the Eastern Catholic churches (or the Oriental Catholic churches) are any less (or any more) Catholic than the Latin Catholic Church. I was responding to a post about a change that had occurred in the Latin Catholic Church. That is why I mentioned changes to the interior of Latin Catholic churches.

I think I know what you mean. My neighborhood RC parish has only a crucifix (which I think is fairly new) and a terra cotta Mary off by the choir stand. The tabernacle is in another room. It has the stations, and though they are small they are easy to spot because of the bare white walls. One would never guess at the affluence of its parishoners. There’s more bling on the fingers of parishoners and on cars in the parking lots than religious imagery in the Church.

My local UGCC is another story. It really looks like an ECC inside. Smells like one too, for they use more incense each Sunday that the RC one does in a year (including funerals).

 

[Alexander_Roman]

“Archtraditionalist” Solange Hertz posed exactly the same question, and concluded “yes.”

Yes.

Kyrie eleison.

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed.

Who could doubt it?

You really have made my month, sir!!

I salute you.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Vico;8565780:

The Mass of Pope Paul VI is a return to a more simpler liturgy more like ancient times. The canon II is composed from the ancient Roman liturgy.

QUOTE]

When i am at a NO Mass with no singing,i think of how it was at the last supper,or when they "Broke bread " in Acts

Would a no singing NO Mass be more similar to the last supper then a 3 hour divine liturgy with singing and chanting and the preist with his back to the people?

Well, I wasn’t at the Last Supper, but our Lord did go to the Garden to pray for three hours . . .

In ancient times, Masses were very long and Christians often prayed all night in vigil on Saturdays before celebrating Mass on Sunday morning. The Divine Liturgies went from “long to shorter” and not from “short to long” over time.

Archbishop Bugnini who authored the NO was wrong on that as well.

Alex

 

[ConstantineTG]

Paul theApostle;8565814:

Well, I wasn’t at the Last Supper, but our Lord did go to the Garden to pray for three hours . . .

In ancient times, Masses were very long and Christians often prayed all night in vigil on Saturdays before celebrating Mass on Sunday morning. The Divine Liturgies went from “long to shorter” and not from “short to long” over time.

Archbishop Bugnini who authored the NO was wrong on that as well.

Alex

Not to mention that there were elaborate processions around town which was part of the Liturgy. The Small and Great Entrances were truly “entrances” and not just what we have today where the clergy move in and out through the iconostasis.