Eastern Mystic comparisons to Jesus and St. Paul

[ericc]

Oh yes, you’ve already answered the question in my previous post. That was quick!

Apparently Osho, unlike “actual humans,” was NOT born in the image of God, if I understand you right.

You did not understand me at all. I wrote “Yes, I know all humans were made in the image of God.” Which part did you not understand?

Are you trying to wear me down?

 

[ericc]

I also made it clear I was looking for conceptual similarities, not a point-by-point aggreement. But of course I am among people who seek to highlight division and completely missed the whole thing about concept.

And what is the purpose of highlighting similarities? Everyone including the devil can speak truth. We know there is some truth in all religions/beliefs. We know we have the fullness of truth so highlighting what others have similar to ours is nice to know but what next? If it is something we already know, not much value in repeating what we already knew. We are more concerned of untruths masquerading as truth. Who is going to distinguish that for us? You?

ericc you are demonstrating the whole reason I’m doing this. Try to get off your passion to tell people how wrong they are, and how anybody who thinks differently than you do about religion is off base and is dangerous.

I am highlighting what is lacking in Osho’s message. I am highlighting potential dangers to one’s faith. Unless you think what I am doing is wrong, tell me where is my error. You knew how Osho was capable of brainwashing don’t you? Did you alert anyone of this danger? Anyone wishing to know can just google it.

You must live a pretty fearful life anytime you are outside the Church, and probably inside.

This is not about me at all. For some strange reason, you keep on harping on my lack of guts to venture something afar. Keep your opinion about me to yourself. You don’t know anything about me at all. Whether I am the fearful sort or not, gutless, that is what my Maker made me. He knows what I can do, what I have done. Didn’t the serpent enticed Eve using similar tactics? It is ok to eat that fruit? It is ok to venture out? It is a disservice to people not ready to venture out but entice them to do so.

If you consider people with religious beliefs tantamount to wolves, then you can probably identify with other religious organizations who put people to death for unorthodoxy.

When did I ever made such a statement? Why are you making these up? All these statements are totally unnecessary. If you have something to say about this topic, start a new thread and don’t derail your current thread.

Or if you’re talking about me

,

And it is not about you at all. It is about the subject matter you have brought up. Let us stay with the subject, shall we? What is it about Osho that you want to make known to us? And for what purpose? What does a few lines of similarities tell us?

then watch out because you’ll never know how I may appear to you next.

What are you going to do about it? Is this a threat? Goodness! God help us.

 

[Thomas_White]

You mentioned Pure Being, Nothingness. Is this taught by Christ? Or someone else? What is the Christian message that you are trying to convey to the readers here? Show us the Christian message. Show us the Gospel of Matthew/Mark/Luke/John. Where is the salvation story in nothingness? Eastern religions allude that if one achieve nothingness, that is the end result. And you have many reincarnations to get there. No souls need saving. You don’t need Christ at all. You can get there all by yourself or with the help of your guru. Unfortunately, this is not what our faith teaches. Do you see the danger when such thinking starts to creep in?

No, I don’t. What are you afraid of? As I said, one ought to first be firmly grounded in one’s Catholic (or other Christian) faith before turning to mysticism. There is a rich tradition in Eastern religion and mysticism that pre-dates Christianity by many centuries, and there are many deep insights, particularly in certain meditation techniques. And it should be no surprise that these ancient teachings, centuries older than Christianity, are not Christian. For me, whatever is contrary to Catholic teaching is simply ignored, though I do find it instructive to sometimes try to understand it in its context of time and place. Buddhism is one of the great religions of the world. I do not understand how studying either it or Hinduism could be dangerous.

One would do well to know the human brain has experienced no signifant evolution in more than 50,000 years. Do you suppose God was unknown to humanity for thousands of years prior to Christianity? I had never before heard of Osho and know nothing of his teachings. So please don’t use it as though it were representative of my beliefs or expect me to defend it. For all I know he was a crackpot, of which there were many in that era that made their way to the states. What I know of Eastern religions I first learned while an undergraduate at a major university. And I assure you that the many courses in comparative religion I took presented no danger to my Catholic faith. Quite the contrary, actually.

I am not trying to convey Christianity or anything else to the readers here. My comment was directed to the OP. You ask is Pure Being taught by Christ? Christ IS pure being, he who always was, is now, and ever shall be. Mysticism is an attempt to know God. Who am I to say this was not possible for those who lived many centuries before the Christian Era?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

For someone wondering if I’m trying to wear you down, you sure add a lot of content.

Contentious content IMO, but that’s partly my ego talking… I’m in a bit of a time limitation so I apologize for not composing more carefully.

No I’m only trying to get you to consider actually participating in this thread the way the OP states, and I’ve clarified several times.

Our last bishop used to be a Buddhist before he became Catholic. My pastor was an atheist, raised by an athiest father, before becoming Catholic. There is a lot to be learned by exploring other points of view before and/or after locking on to one in particular. YMMV.

If you want to spend your time researching everything that’s wrong with someone so that you can tell me why he is insignificant and is dangerous to listen to, then go away and do it somewhere else. You’ve already made a wonderful example of exactly the assertion I’m making… that your hunger to prove that your religion is better than his, is far greater than your desire to recognize that this is a human being, made in the image of God.

If you’re done making the point that Osho isn’t Catholic, then thank you and do us all a favor and stop because I believe you and I haven’t heard anyone else say otherwise.

Much of your content is off topic because you refuse to go along with the guidelines and even the spirit of the thread. But you have served as an example to make my point, and for that I thank you. I’m glad to have an actual example in this thread, of how some Catholics just can’t seem to get the idea of valuing human life and human experiences, over analytical arguments about doctrine and his problems. I’m pretty sure he was an alcoholic, too, and had some other problems so yeah I’m not saying He’s Jesus, and if you think that’s my drift here, then you have your blinders on, and maybe some day they will open up and you will see.

And what is the purpose of highlighting similarities? Everyone including the devil can speak truth. We know there is some truth in all religions/beliefs.

Yes, everyone can speak truth. I like to see how different people from different religions, talk about the same human experiences.

And yet when I take a specific example, you have bent over backwards to impeach the author. If even the devil can quote truth, then deal with the truth in the statement itself, not with whether the author qualifies as your spiritual director. Do you have a spiritual director? Maybe you should ask about what I’m talking about in this thread. He might say that I’m totally wrong and that it’s dangerous to seek truth anywhere outside the Catholic doctrine. With Imprimatur.

We know we have the fullness of truth so highlighting what others have similar to ours is nice to know but what next? If it is something we already know, not much value in repeating what we already knew. We are more concerned of untruths masquerading as truth. Who is going to distinguish that for us? You?

The Holy Spirit, silly. Jesus said He would not leave us orphans, and a helper would come from within us like a spring of living water. That helper is the Holy Spirit, and trumps my human understanding even when I think I know something.

1 Cor 13:8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

I’m asking you to have love for this man and recognize something he says that does not offend your better knowledge. If you can’t do that, then you’ve completed the task.

There is truth in what you say, too. But if you cannot look at it the way I’m suggesting, then maybe back off and let it drop to the background for a while. If it’s useful it will come back when you need it. If not, it won’t.

I am highlighting what is lacking in Osho’s message. I am highlighting potential dangers to one’s faith. Unless you think what I am doing is wrong, tell me where is my error. You knew how Osho was capable of brainwashing don’t you? Did you alert anyone of this danger? Anyone wishing to know can just google it.

What you’re doing is not wrong, but it’s what everyone else seems to be doing. I’m calling for people willing to take a less traveled path and see truth outside the walls of our minds.

Consider the Good Samaritan stories. Wasn’t the whole point of the story, that someone who treats another with love and compassion, is my “neighbor” whom I must love as I do myself – even if that person is an “outsider.” The priest and the Levite failed the test, despite their orthodoxy.

(continued)

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

(continued)

This is not about me at all. For some strange reason, you keep on harping on my lack of guts to venture something afar. Keep your opinion about me to yourself. You don’t know anything about me at all. Whether I am the fearful sort or not, gutless, that is what my Maker made me. He knows what I can do, what I have done. Didn’t the serpent enticed Eve using similar tactics? It is ok to eat that fruit? It is ok to venture out? It is a disservice to people not ready to venture out but entice them to do so.

Very passionate content, and from the heart! I’m glad you feel free to speak in this manner. At least now you aren’t hiding behind doctrine. When you feel I’m attacking you personally, you speak truth.

When did I ever made such a statement? Why are you making these up? All these statements are totally unnecessary. If you have something to say about this topic, start a new thread and don’t derail your current thread.

Get off my own thread because you want to participate and want to have it your way, so I should start a new thread!

Dude that makes my day.

Why don’t YOU start a new thread, where you can expound on the evils of Osho? THEN your comments would be on topic. THIS thread was, and is, about finding commonality in one single paragraph that he wrote. You are like the Spanish Inquisition, determined to silence this guy even though his orthodoxy is not only off topic, I’ve asked several times to get back on topic.

So instead of getting back on topic, you tell me to go start a new thread… I already started a thread on the topic I wanted, this one, and you are gracing it with exactly the kind of ego show that it was designed to prevent. Thus you are serving as a good “bad example” to emphasize my point in this thread the way I started it. So I guess in that way, you are on topic by proving how hard it is for any Catholic to consider the difficult task I am asking.

I have an idea. Why don’t you start a thread, and I’ll come in and try to derail it, and if I can’t I’ll tell you to go start another thread because I know better than you what your topic was about. :whacky:

I couldn’t have made this up a better straw man to shoot down. Thank you for an “actual” example.

And it is not about you at all. It is about the subject matter you have brought up. Let us stay with the subject, shall we? What is it about Osho that you want to make known to us? And for what purpose? What does a few lines of similarities tell us?

Not a thing if you refuse to see them for your need to feel like he is not like you.

What are you going to do about it? Is this a threat? Goodness! God help us.

A threat? Where? Is the East and the West going to start a war? What if I started it? What if you fought it?

Time may never tell, before we die. :nope:

 

[Thomas_White]

I will say there is nary a thing in the Osho quote provided by the OP that could properly be construed as contrary to Catholic teaching. They are the words of a mystic and are of a commonality with the mystical experience described by the contemplatives of every major faith tradition.

But I fear a thread that could have proven very interesting has been hijacked in a way that will soon result in its demise. This is not fair to the OP. So, I also wish those who do not or cannot understand what this is about (or was meant to be about) would just go away. Stick to the parables if that is what you are able to understand, but please cease trying to explain those things of which you have neither understanding nor experience.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You ask is Pure Being taught by Christ? Christ IS pure being, he who always was, is now, and ever shall be. Mysticism is an attempt to know God. Who am I to say this was not possible for those who lived many centuries before the Christian Era?

Thank you. You completely understand what I am trying to do. This is exactly the type of thinking I’ve been trying to promote. In my opinion, it’s exactly the kind of thinking that Jesus is trying to promote. And St. Paul wrote a great deal about it.

And of course, Jesus was not a Christian. He lived a Jew, and He died a Jew. He followed the requirements of Jewish law – well sort of but not the way the experts interpreted it. Except one in Matt 22.

If I expand and look at the emotional and mental dynamics of what is going on, at some point it’s easy to compare the spirit of academic arguments over who is right about a Catholic doctrine, to other ways in which human beings erect mental barriers against others “not like ourselves.” Jesus broke the law to talk to women He wasn’t supposed to, and after He called one of them a dog (for the ‘sin’ of not being of the proper religion – He usually talked to women but couldn’t be caught doing so when other Jews were around) she responded so well He held her up as the greatest faith He’d ever seen, even though she was Not of the Chosen Ones!!!

God uses the lowly and the outcast to shame the wise. Jesus shamed a “starving outcast woman” in front of everyone, so that He could use her as an example to shame the wise. He saw that she had great humility, and she took the label of “dog” completely in stride without offense, but had enough courage to go ahead and ask Him again, now that she has agreed that she is the dog, between the two of them.

And because of celebrity, or whatever, we look to palaces (Pope Francis’s term) instead of impoverished places where babies are born in horse troughs because they didn’t have Obamacare yet. For some reason we like to team up with the wise to shame anyone who isn’t similarly clever or at least admit that we are – and if they don’t think so then they are wrong.

The same spirit that wants to separate ourselves from others into ingroups and outgroups based on what set of beliefs they profess to hold, is the same spirit that gives rise to divisions and petty fighting among Catholics (case in point) and IMO to the contraceptive mentality, Protestantism, and in general is opposed to unity in the Body of Christ.

Christ came to divide us so we’d quit trying to act like clones of the imagined Perfect Jew who didn’t exist. He was then born the Perfect Jew, and we found out what happens under Jewish law, to a “Perfect Jew” – thus Christ Himself became sin under the law, so that when they put him to death, is also put to death the law that falsely accused a perfect man of, well, saying things the religious leaders didn’t want to hear.

Then He taught us how to unite in a meaningful way that did not require identical religious beliefs but love itself which the law foreshadowed but could not achieve without Him because the law itself was put to death. Rom 7-8 cover this, and are fascinating reading that might twist a few things around.

Jesus did not come to model a perfect “Christian” but a “perfect human” or if we have to involve a religion, then it would be to show us how to become a “Perfect Jewish Human.” So really if you want to be like Jesus as much as possible, you’d have to forget all your Catholic teachings, become Jewish, and then hang around very devout Jews and heckle their leaders. That’s why they constantly asked about His authority. How can some poor son of a carpenter, know more than the scholars? It can’t be because He used his “God Skills” to do like Neo on the Matrix, because then He would be “cheating” and not Fully Human. He figured it out based on reading scriptures with love instead of fear. Perfect love casts out fear.

So if you really want to do WWJD, become a Jew and follow all of the Jewish customs except when they are stupid in which case you flaunt them and then call down the Pharisees for actually noticing it (wash cup, working on Sabbath, avoiding physical contact with loose women), but proclaim to cross of Jesus to the Jews. See how the Jews like it when you come in there and think you’re Jesus and going to introduce heretical and blasphemous views (such as “I am in the Father and the Father was within me”). So yeah, good luck with that but at least stoning is now illegal by civil law… good thing religious law no longer requires death for heretics, or in most countries they can’t get away with it because civil law enforces its rules with force as opposed to the call of love, which scares people into good behavior even though their religion may call for the death of “others.”

Jesus beautifully summarized the difference between truth making one free, compared to Bad Religion becoming a prison in itself, where the emphasis is on meticulously following the religion, which becomes idolatry. Can you imagine how livid he must have made them by this:

Mark 2:17
Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. :big_yikes:

That really put them in a bind, because it held them in direct contempt for enforcing the very commandment they were accusing Him and his ragtag pals of breaking.

When did Jesus say this? In one of the occasions in which Jesus and his friends were caught red handed breaking laws and customs, such as keeping the sabbath holy. He put the slam dunk on them, by showing that their dogmatic interpretation of how to observe the sabbath is not only incorrect, but he called upon the name of King David, whom they trusted (as opposed to Jesus the accused criminal) did even worse things than that. Somehow this concept seems to be lost, and I’m trying to regain it, among other things.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Pope Francis: Feb 27, 2014

“Since faith comes from proclamation we need kerygmatic bishops. … Men who are guardians of doctrine, not so as as to measure how far the world is from doctrinal truth, but in order to fascinate the world … with the beauty of love, with the freedom offered by the Gospel. The Church does not need apologists for her causes or crusaders for her battles, but humble and trusting sowers of the truth, who know that it is always given to them anew and trust in its power. Men who are patient men as they know that the weeds will never fill the field”.

Source: Vatican News

The Pope defines the mission of the Congregation for Bishops and the characteristics of the Apostles’ Successors

So yes, it is completely orthodox and in line with the current Bishop of Rome’s directives, to look at similarities rather than differences.

This also speaks to the question from another poster:

And what is the purpose of highlighting similarities? Everyone including the devil can speak truth. We know there is some truth in all religions/beliefs. We know we have the fullness of truth so highlighting what others have similar to ours is nice to know but what next? If it is something we already know, not much value in repeating what we already knew. We are more concerned of untruths masquerading as truth. Who is going to distinguish that for us? You?

Because love unites, and learning others’ languages and beliefs is a way to unite in understanding.

So in essence, I could say that I’m doing this to be in line with the way the Bishop of Rome wants to see us take as Catholics.

IOW, just trying to “get with the times” and obey the Holy Father in both letter and spirit as fervently as I believe I can.

Use the Bible as a call to love, instead of using it to bash others for not sharing our understanding of it.

Case closed? No way. I’m not naive enough to think Catholics will set aside their “Catholicity” pell-mell to obey the Pope.

In other words, let’s not continue to practice Churchianity as a false face for Chrisianity.

See how Pope Francis’s comments align with this observation from a non-Catholic:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi
.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I will say there is nary a thing in the Osho quote provided by the OP that could properly be construed as contrary to Catholic teaching. They are the words of a mystic and are of a commonality with the mystical experience described by the contemplatives of every major faith tradition.

Once after I had just attended a meeting of parents (mostly non-Catholic Christians) concerned that the New Age Secularism was not just in public schools, but also creeping into in Catholic schools. They talked about a game kids were playing called mother earth where they are asked whether Mother Earth can “live” without her trees, and the answer is no. Can she live without her humans, well of course!

I was ready to seek and destroy any amount of “New Age” I saw in the kids’ school work. Imagine my horror when in less than a week my son came home with a handout that went right down the line of what the New Agers were saying. I was livid, because it elevated the sun and moon to the level of human family members! All I needed to see was the title, and I already knew our parish had been infected! “Brother Sun”??? “Sister Moon”??? OMG it IS in the Catholic schools.

I was close with the pastor, and I rushed to him, expecting him to be alarmed and take immediate action to review the curriculum. I told him I had evidence of satanic New Age influence in the Church. I showed him the handout, nearly shaking with anger.

He said, “that was written by St. Francis of Assisi”

Wow.

Just Wow.

Now it’s 15 years later, and I’m studying to join the Secular Franciscans, so that I may help spread St. Francis’s brand of “new age”.

But I fear a thread that could have proven very interesting has been hijacked in a way that will soon result in its demise. This is not fair to the OP. So, I also wish those who do not or cannot understand what this is about (or was meant to be about) would just go away. Stick to the parables if that is what you are able to understand, but please cease trying to explain those things of which you have neither understanding nor experience.

The fact that at least one person “got it” is a success for the thread. That made the substance of the cake and consummated the thread.

The fact we had a real time example right here in the thread of what I was talking about, added flavor and icing, and was a gift from God. All humans are gifts from God, even posters whom I think are not getting what I’m saying for their habits of swashbuckling through anything “non-Catholic” even if it’s true. If the Holy Spirit has us together in this thread, then I can “Rom 8:28” it and deduce it’s all good.

Then when multiple attempts to bring the poster back to the topic failed, the poster tried unsuccessfully to hijack the thread, and suggested I go start my own thread so I could have the OP topic that was magically redefined. THAT was awesome. It turned off the room lights, and put the lit candles on the cake for all to bask in its glow.

Shutting down the thread would be blowing out the candles, and then we can turn off the cameras and eat. After we eat, we can get back to work. :hammering:

If the thread gets shut down for any reason other than my being uncharitable, it becomes a martyr thread and will have given its life for the cause of love and Christlike unity. And since we don’t discuss mod actions, if it does we may never know and I can fancy it a martyr thread, while others are free to fancy it as limiting the spread of poison. :stretcher:

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a thread falls to mod action and dies, it remains just a thread; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.

So I appreciate your concern. I’m willing to risk it because what’s the sport unless there is a risk, eh?

Not that I’ll feel any lack – there’s a “New Thread” button and I know how to use it. kpeople:

MS

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

+JMJ+

You do realize that according to the quotes you just cited you are the one who is wise in the world, right? “…but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…”

That is what we have been saying all along here: there is no Christ crucified in any of Osho’s writings. What you are doing is what the world is saying, that there are similarities in the world’s religions and beliefs. But us, we say there is a big difference in having God out of the picture.

I don’t need Osho’s writings to be uttered from a person who also claims Christ crucified for purposes of comparison. I might see a cloud that looks like a duck. It doesn’t quack or walk like a duck, and is in fact, not a duck. But from this little human looking upward toward it, I see a cloud whose shape reminds me of a duck. Making that observation does not imply that I think there is a certified, living and breathing giant duck floating across the sky.

Another poster said that even satan can quote scripture, which we know from the desert.

If satan can quote scripture, does that mean that if satan speaks truth, it automatically becomes a lie just because Satan said it? I can’t imagine that. The devil just presents it out of context and hopes the true meaning will not be obvious, but it doesnt’ make what it says true. I claim that is impossible because then all satan would have to do is read the whole Bible, and negate it – unless it’s that obvious and he isn’t sneaky enough to figure it out.

You may not think the comparison is valid so if not, why not? And if it is, then isn’t it possible that Osho maybe “just happened” to say something that doesn’t contradict Catholic teachings?

Or are you claiming that if it isn’t in the Bible, then it can’t be true? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t agree with that.

I don’t understand the motivation to “evilize” something just because it’s from a different religion.

For the record, I started this thread in spirituality because I consider it a spiritual exercise to recognize mystical truth in various forms. Since it was moved to the “Non-Catholic Religions” thread, that may make it seem like I’m claiming Osho is Catholic or has authority to speak for Catholics. He said what he said, and I’m saying “hey that sounds a bit like what Jesus says.”

If you can’t see the comparison, then say so and you’re done. Providing counterpoint to all manner of claims and insinuations that I am not making and have specifically pointed out that I’m not making, is not in line with my intended OP.

So yeah go ahead and post whatever you want, unrelated to the OP topic, and I will either continue to tell you that it is off topic, or maybe if my ego was better under control, I’d let you say it and not reply.

That said, maybe my scriptural quotes don’t exactly prove my point and I trust if they don’t you could give me a complete analysis because you seem very diligent and I am confident you can come up with something that makes me wrong on this. That’s ok because I hadn’t intended to start having scripture quote wars because I’m a bit surprised that even on this website there is this much push back about something I can probably explain to most four year olds and they would get it. Maybe adults are trained by experience to make everything complicated and to stick to their stories if challenged by someone in an out group.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You did not understand me at all. I wrote “Yes, I know all humans were made in the image of God.” Which part did you not understand?

The part where you wrote:

And there was no God in Osho. All the similarities in the world counts for nothing if there is no God.

If it was on a different post, I apologize for missing it.

Let me share my experience during those dark days. I was seduced by Astral Projection/OOBEs/Lucid Dreaming. The thought of meeting your dead relatives/loved ones and talking to them. Traveling to distant lands at the speed of thought. In those realms, magically a guide appears to instruct you of ins/outs of that world. Beings of light. etc. But not a single word of God. And they seduce you with what you can do with these capabilities. I was an idiot. Period.

You can do that in your imagination but I don’t necessarily believe those things are real. It’s a good thing you escaped.

That said, if you look at some things like entangled particles that we are learning from physicists, you might just wonder what is real and what isn’t.

And I wonder to myself all these people with these wonderful capabilities, why didn’t they make the world a better place to live?

I bet Job wondered the same thing. He was the greatest servant of the Lord, and look what the Lord authorized for him because He wanted to boast to the devil? It would be an outrage to suggest they are both needed to make this world go around.

My word of advice: stay away. We are not as strong as we think. God kick my butt back to the Church where I was faltering for a long time. I shudder to think where I could have ended up if that u-turn wasn’t made. Mysticism is sexy but it is often a journey not in the light.

I am really glad you found the Church. Having seen all that surely makes you appreciate what you have now, even more

Are you trying to wear me down?

I wasn’t specifically doing that on purpose, but I like the idea. I can hope.

j/k – sort of –

no really I know I have been condescending and I apologize for that. The things I’m saying are things I don’t hear from many places, which is why I am saying them. You are probably saying the same things that other lurkers are wondering so you might as well lead the way. :tiphat:

If what I am saying is wrong, then yes I would much prefer to be called on it than to remain in error. But if what is wrong is not what I said, then basically that gives me no feedback and I have no way to justify changing my position.

If you want to talk about your previous religions, I like to hear about them and I welcome you to PM me.

 

[Thomas_White]

From the Nicene Creed:

“We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father…”

There is but one God. The Lord, Jesus Christ, is eternally begotten of the Father, before all things were made. So, if Eastern Mystics were in touch with what is ineffable centuries before the historical Jesus walked the earth, it seems to me that this teaching from the Nicene Creed deserves due consideration if we are to judge ancient Eastern religions with respect to Christianity.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

From the Nicene Creed:

“We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father…”

There is but one God. The Lord, Jesus Christ, is eternally begotten of the Father, before all things were made. So, if Eastern Mystics were in touch with what is ineffable centuries before the historical Jesus walked the earth, it seems to me that this teaching from the Nicene Creed deserves due consideration if we are to judge ancient Eastern religions with respect to Christianity.

It’s the same Lord, the same truth, viewed with an earlier lens, is what I’m thinking.

Kind of like having Newton to go by, until Einstein added extensions? Didn’t make Newton any less useful, but expanded the range. Then of course quantum physics gives us the ability to design chips and make computers so we can discuss Newton and Einstein.

So now we have Catholicism to extend Judiasm, which itself was more recent than the eastern mystics? And all are created by the same God, exposed to the same Truth, as mysticalk technology advanced and culminated in the Incarnation?

Or is this even related to your point?

 

[Thomas_White]

It’s the same Lord, the same truth, viewed with an earlier lens, is what I’m thinking.

Kind of like having Newton to go by, until Einstein added extensions? Didn’t make Newton any less useful, but expanded the range. Then of course quantum physics gives us the ability to design chips and make computers so we can discuss Newton and Einstein.

So now we have Catholicism to extend Judiasm, which itself was more recent than the eastern mystics? And all are created by the same God, exposed to the same Truth, as mysticalk technology advanced and culminated in the Incarnation?

Or is this even related to your point?

Yes, it is related. God always was, is now, and ever shall be. The Lord, Jesus Christ, is God, and the Nicene Creed teaches us He did not become so only upon his earthly Incarnation.

Both Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have said there has become too much of a focus on doctrine and an obsession with only a few topics. I know from many citations that Pope Francis wants to go beyond this and return the Church to a closer experience of Christ.

Pope Benedict said in ‘God and the World’ that revelation has not yet been fully revealed and to each generation a bit more is revealed. We know from Revelations that this will not be fully revealed before the end of time. I thus see no harm in exploring these many issues, and, in fact, I believe we are called to it. God cannot be known or experienced by the limited human intellect and understanding. This is a first premise of Mysticism.

It is complex, but the early Church Fathers, principally Augustine, who wrote in Latin, attempted to render an Asian religion in a way that could be understood by the Western World by conceptualizing it within the framework of Hellenistic thought, primarily that of Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus (among other philosophers). This remained a strong influence at least through the Scholastic period, but contemporary theology is increasingly questioning whether this represents the true teachings of early Christianity.

So, I at time become annoyed by lectures from those that have little or no understanding of what is a complex subject. And I know I ought to either show more patience or just remain silent.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

So, I at time become annoyed by lectures from those that have little or no understanding of what is a complex subject. And I know I ought to either show more patience or just remain silent.

Yes. I’m starting to let myself go, though. I found out that if I just write facts, people seem to read in various motives. It’s like they try to discern the motives and mood of the writer before they can decide whether they are going to resist what they are about to read.

So if I include emotional content, others seem to feel like they know where I’m coming from better. It’s a useful tool.

Maybe we should meet outside of CAF. We may be able to conspire about something.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Maybe it would help to give another example of east-west comparisons. This time I’ll go with Jesus against Buddha.

Jesus takes the opening shot with Matt 6:25-34

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat [or drink], or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span?

Why are you anxious about clothes? Learn from the way the wild flowers grow. They do not work or spin. But I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was clothed like one of them. If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith?

So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’ All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides. Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil.

OK. Fast forward to the 21st century, and see what Buddha’s followers are doing even now, to usurp the Good News by enticing people into popular versions that clearly are opposed in substance to everything we hold sacred…

They choose to present a graphic as their entry into the ‘one upmanship’ religious wars. They may be so deceived they don’t even realize that when they undermine the words of Jesus, they undermine Truth Itself. I recommend anybody who actually “likes” this graphic, get to confession immediately or you may end up wearing and orange robe. Or at least an orange jump suit. If you’re not sure if you agree with it, counseling may be indicated.

CAUTION: The following graphic is on an actual web site hosted by actual Buddhists. Do not believe anything in it, lest you go to hell and take the rest of us with you. If you do not see how deceptive this all is, then you should be Very Afraid because you might be a Buddhist in Christian garb and not even know it!

OK I warned you… once you see it you can’t unsee it… I’ll try to help by making it so you have to scroll … if you do you’re on your own.
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http://images.elephantjournal.com/w.../08/Screen-shot-2011-04-29-at-10.20.37-AM.png
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See what I mean? You just can’t trust Buddhists. They will do Just About Anything to distract westerners with shiny objects:

Look here as they use primal rhythms and Warrior Envy to try to catch the attention of our children… notice the production company boldly calls itself “Empty Mind FIlms” which clearly indicates they are trying to “deprogram” us from Sound Doctrine?

Be careful when you watch this, or you mind may become empty and you will lose your religion. Only those strong in faith should see this because satan is very compelling and will suck you down there with him even as you think you are watching people who are part of the Body of Christ. I’m not sure that these are actual humans, though, and not incubi or something worse. We need to watch our for women and children around these monsters:

The Empty Mind - Shaolin Temple Warrior Monks

Can you just see in their faces, how intent they are at defeating Jesus’s words? And they go into intensive training by age five and climb a mountain on their knees every day. Let’s only hope they decide to go after Allah’s followers before Jesus’s followers, or Jesus may have been mistaken when He said His Words would never pass away… :bigyikes:

We have something like that. When my son went to Rome, he was able to go up the stairs Jesus took to meet Pilate (they were moved to Rome) on his knees. These kids climbed a mountain on theirs every morning. So this is what we’re up against to protect our kids against turning away from the faith.

If we are going to prevent Buddhist takeover, maybe we need to step up our game, take off our blinders, and quit hoping other religions would just go away before they cut into our customer base much further. I could be totally wrong.

 

[Thomas_White]

Maybe it would help to give another example of east-west comparisons. This time I’ll go with Jesus against Buddha.

If we are going to prevent Buddhist takeover, maybe we need to step up our game, take off our blinders, and quit hoping other religions would just go away before they cut into our customer base much further. I could be totally wrong.

Certainly, we must remain vigilant against the worldwide threat of Buddist extremism. This talk of love and peace is downright subversive, and I’d sure keep an eye on that radical, the Dali Lama. We cannot afford to let our guard down and look at this in a non-judgmental way with an open mind.

It is known the Dali Lama held spiritual discussions with Thomas Merton!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I don’t need Osho’s writings to be uttered from a person who also claims Christ crucified for purposes of comparison. I might see a cloud that looks like a duck. It doesn’t quack or walk like a duck, and is in fact, not a duck. But from this little human looking upward toward it, I see a cloud whose shape reminds me of a duck. Making that observation does not imply that I think there is a certified, living and breathing giant duck floating across the sky.

Another poster said that even satan can quote scripture, which we know from the desert.

If satan can quote scripture, does that mean that if satan speaks truth, it automatically becomes a lie just because Satan said it? I can’t imagine that. The devil just presents it out of context and hopes the true meaning will not be obvious, but it doesnt’ make what it says true. I claim that is impossible because then all satan would have to do is read the whole Bible, and negate it – unless it’s that obvious and he isn’t sneaky enough to figure it out.

You may not think the comparison is valid so if not, why not? And if it is, then isn’t it possible that Osho maybe “just happened” to say something that doesn’t contradict Catholic teachings?

Or are you claiming that if it isn’t in the Bible, then it can’t be true? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t agree with that.

I don’t understand the motivation to “evilize” something just because it’s from a different religion.

For the record, I started this thread in spirituality because I consider it a spiritual exercise to recognize mystical truth in various forms. Since it was moved to the “Non-Catholic Religions” thread, that may make it seem like I’m claiming Osho is Catholic or has authority to speak for Catholics. He said what he said, and I’m saying “hey that sounds a bit like what Jesus says.”

If you can’t see the comparison, then say so and you’re done. Providing counterpoint to all manner of claims and insinuations that I am not making and have specifically pointed out that I’m not making, is not in line with my intended OP.

So yeah go ahead and post whatever you want, unrelated to the OP topic, and I will either continue to tell you that it is off topic, or maybe if my ego was better under control, I’d let you say it and not reply.

That said, maybe my scriptural quotes don’t exactly prove my point and I trust if they don’t you could give me a complete analysis because you seem very diligent and I am confident you can come up with something that makes me wrong on this. That’s ok because I hadn’t intended to start having scripture quote wars because I’m a bit surprised that even on this website there is this much push back about something I can probably explain to most four year olds and they would get it. Maybe adults are trained by experience to make everything complicated and to stick to their stories if challenged by someone in an out group.

Alright then, I am just waiting if you can even see the errors from your own posts, even from the very first post in this thread, but since it looks like I am waiting for naught here…

John 7:37-
37 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as scripture says:
‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’”
39 He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Look at what I highlighted. According to what I highlighted, Jesus said you must believe in Him to receive the Holy Spirit!

There is no getting around that. The Holy Spirit has not been poured to everybody even today. You must believe in Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit!

This is Christianity 101.

If you then add what Osho said:

Osho
“The guide is not outside, the guide is within you. One has to go deeper into one’s own being to find the guide. Once the inner guide is found there are no more mistakes, no repentance, no guilt. There is no question of doing good or doing bad. One walks in light and one walks lightly because the head and the burden of the head is no more there. And when one walks in light and walks lightly, life becomes laughter, love, joy.”

The question then becomes: who the heck is this “inner guide” if there is no Holy Spirit inside someone, if that person had not believed in Jesus Christ?

Now you might object that that is like saying there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and the Holy Spirit is unpredictable and you can find Him where you do not expect Him, well, that’s just it: you don’t know where you will find Him! You do not presume on the Holy Spirit to be where Scripture says He might not be in, and that is with unbelievers. Am I saying then that the Holy Spirit is not in any nonbeliever? Nope.

Read the Acts of the Apostles if you do not believe me.

Another objection you might make would be that, as Meister Eckhart said, God is inside us because He made us. Well show me any Christian mystic who said that you can talk to the God inside us without the Holy Spirit.

Besides, Osho said, “The guide is not outside, the guide is within you.” Heck no! The Holy Spirit is supposed to be both inside and outside you! Isn’t that what the quote by G.K. Chesterton that I posted said? No Christian mystic will ever say that God is only inside of you and cannot be found outside.

As they say, the devil is in the details.

Best you go back to your catechism before you go further into this nonsense.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

+JMJ+

The question then becomes: who the heck is this “inner guide” if there is no Holy Spirit inside someone, if that person had not believed in Jesus Christ?

That’s an excellent question. I tend to think that different religions have different names for experiences that come across a certain way. Maybe it’s a sensitivity to microexpressions or compassion or whatever, and someone is trying to capture the essence in words so that another may enjoy it. The words are pointers to an experience.

My current direction is to consider the Holy Spirit is inside all humans, being connected to that part of us that was made in the image of God. I roughly consider this the inner “light” that the bushel covers. The problem is with bushels and pecks and planks and splinters et al, we are clumsily stumbling through the woods, in metaphorical-ish verbiage. So I’m going on the basis that Jesus helps us cut through our forests, whether the bushel we wear or the plank we look around, so that our light may shine and we may see. That way everybody has the “equipment” to become spirit-led.

Whether the experience is the same in someone who does or does not believe in the Holy Spirit, or if it signifies the same thing, I can’t say. From my experience I’ve had times where I have and have not believed the Holy Spirit actually introduces “inexpressible groans” that somehow communicate with or on behalf of my spirit, however that works. For me, I’ve had so many “synchronicity” experiences on such a frequent basis that in times of stronger and weaker faith I have to believe that either there is a force of some kind, and why not call it the Holy Spirit and see how it fits, then later worry about whether I actually believe it. I like trying beliefs on before I adopt them as likely true. One way is to pretend I believe it and imagine what that would do to my outlook on the world or attitude toward it, behavior, etc.

Besides, Osho said, “The guide is not outside, the guide is within you.” Heck no! The Holy Spirit is supposed to be both inside and outside you! Isn’t that what the quote by G.K. Chesterton that I posted said? No Christian mystic will ever say that God is only inside of you and cannot be found outside.

OK well you got me there. Slam dunk, I plead quilty of peddling “limited” messages. Oh well, I think it’s ahead of some people. Maybe milk for baby mystics … ha ha loving your post so far. I love intelligent counterpoint!

As they say, the devil is in the details.

Best you go back to your catechism before you go further into this nonsense.

You are my catechism. I’m good enough to fool pretty much all the Catholics I know which is why I’m starting to show my wares here, where you can show me where they need to be polished. I don’t seek “imprimatur” necessarily, but you can show me where I’m thinking in a limited way and thus do me the honor of a useful and constructive observation!

That said, a good deal of my effort is to find commonality that transcends details. Like the “Buddhist” thing about not worrying could have been from about any secular or religious source. I don’t know where all this is leading, so I just type stuff and others type back and I let the “Spirit” take it from there. At any given time if I have “flow” (psychological term) it feels like decisions come easilyi and naturally, and without calculating all the details. I have always been an academic and detail person in the past, and now I see why I am hell to people I’m only trying to help explain stuff. I’m trying to repent of being that way, by adding “social skills” to my communications toolbox!

MS

 

[Thomas_White]

+JMJ+The question then becomes: who the heck is this “inner guide” if there is no Holy Spirit inside someone, if that person had not believed in Jesus Christ?

Another objection you might make would be that, as Meister Eckhart said, God is inside us because He made us. Well show me any Christian mystic who said that you can talk to the God inside us without the Holy Spirit.

Besides, Osho said, “The guide is not outside, the guide is within you.” Heck no! The Holy Spirit is supposed to be both inside and outside you! Isn’t that what the quote by G.K. Chesterton that I posted said? No Christian mystic will ever say that God is only inside of you and cannot be found outside.

There is mysticism as an academic subject, a thing understood by the intellect, and there is the mystical experience. They are not the same thing. The mystical experience is not of the intellect. That is of the outside. So is argument, and it has no meaning. The mystical experience is an interior one where concepts such as ‘you’, or self, or an inside or outside, or any concept, are transcended. This is not something that can be understood or expressed in words. It must be experienced.

It ought also to be understood that the Lord, Jesus Christ, who is God, and the Holy Spirit, the same God, have existed outside of time for all eternity.