Eastern-oriented Latin Rite?

[alepine3]

Yesterday I saw an old friend of mine who used to go to the same Orthodox church as me when we were younger. Like me he married a Roman Catholic who was quite adament that the wedding occur in a R.C. church, and he told me he’s been going to this same church since he got married. When I asked him if he misses our Eastern tradition he told me “It’s just a different way of expressing the same faith.” When I pressed him on this he said that theologically he’s 100% Orthodox but that he just prefers going to a shorter service and wants to go to the same church as his wife. When I tried mentioning important differences like purgatory he responded by saying he doesn’t buy any of it, but that he doesn’t need to since the Catholic Church sees Orthodox theology as fully Catholic and that there aren’t any contradictions between them.

So, here’s the question: can someone be liturgically Wesern but theologically fully Eastern? It’s true that since Vatican II the Church has seen Orthodox theology as non-contradictory and in fact complementary to traditional Roman Catholic doctrine, but does that mean that Catholics now can choose to be fully Eastern and reject R.C. doctrine not in line with Eastern theology?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yesterday I saw an old friend of mine who used to go to the same Orthodox church as me when we were younger. Like me he married a Roman Catholic who was quite adament that the wedding occur in a R.C. church, and he told me he’s been going to this same church since he got married. When I asked him if he misses our Eastern tradition he told me “It’s just a different way of expressing the same faith.” When I pressed him on this he said that theologically he’s 100% Orthodox but that he just prefers going to a shorter service and wants to go to the same church as his wife. When I tried mentioning important differences like purgatory he responded by saying he doesn’t buy any of it, but that he doesn’t need to since the Catholic Church sees Orthodox theology as fully Catholic and that there aren’t any contradictions between them.

So, here’s the question: can someone be liturgically Wesern but theologically fully Eastern? It’s true that since Vatican II the Church has seen Orthodox theology as non-contradictory and in fact complementary to traditional Roman Catholic doctrine, but does that mean that Catholics now can choose to be fully Eastern and reject R.C. doctrine not in line with Eastern theology?

Yes. Catholics who “reject” Western theology and follow Eastern theology are called Eastern Catholics.

 

[TrueLight]

Yesterday I saw an old friend of mine who used to go to the same Orthodox church as me when we were younger. Like me he married a Roman Catholic who was quite adament that the wedding occur in a R.C. church, and he told me he’s been going to this same church since he got married. When I asked him if he misses our Eastern tradition he told me “It’s just a different way of expressing the same faith.” When I pressed him on this he said that theologically he’s 100% Orthodox but that he just prefers going to a shorter service and wants to go to the same church as his wife. When I tried mentioning important differences like purgatory he responded by saying he doesn’t buy any of it, but that he doesn’t need to since the Catholic Church sees Orthodox theology as fully Catholic and that there aren’t any contradictions between them.

So, here’s the question: can someone be liturgically Wesern but theologically fully Eastern? It’s true that since Vatican II the Church has seen Orthodox theology as non-contradictory and in fact complementary to traditional Roman Catholic doctrine, but does that mean that Catholics now can choose to be fully Eastern and reject R.C. doctrine not in line with Eastern theology?

Interesting question. I’m sure others who know the answer will respond soon, because I’d like to know myself.

On the one hand questions on Orthodoxy are moved to the Non-Catholic Religions forum and on the other hand, Catholics are allowed to take communion in an Orthodox church if allowed.

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes. Catholics who “reject” Western theology and follow Eastern theology are called Eastern Catholics.

Perhaps for people who reject Western-Catholic theology (understood as a way of thinking about religious matters), but certainly not for people who reject dogmas of the Church, which are neither Eastern nor Western and must be held by all Catholics.

 

[TrueLight]

Perhaps for people who reject Western-Catholic theology (understood as a way of thinking about religious matters), but certainly not for people who reject dogmas of the Church, which are neither Eastern nor Western and must be held by all Catholics.

I agree.

This is key: “When I tried mentioning important differences like purgatory he responded by saying he doesn’t buy any of it, but that he doesn’t need to since the Catholic Church sees Orthodox theology as fully Catholic and that there aren’t any contradictions between them.”

I’m not so sure that’s correct.

 

[alepine3]

Actually Rome explicitly allows Eastern Catholics to maintain their own unique conceptions of purgatory. The Filioque is not dogma (Benedict and JPII have recited the Creed without it) and is currently optional for E.C. parishes, which only leaves Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility. The latter is contentious even among R.C. I believe.

What I was referring to is not simply R.C. dogma, however. I was referring to the R.C. theological approach in its entirity, which is too legalistic, juridicial, and scholastic for many Orthodox. We prefer the intuitive cognitive nature of experiencing mystical union with Christ through theosis. This should be the ultimate goal of Christian life.

The question is, can we view things with this mindset yet be fully Catholic given that since Vatican II the Church holds that Orthodox theology is fully Catholic and forms the other “lung” of Catholicism?

 

[MarkThompson]

The Filioque definitely is dogma. (So is Papal Infallibility, of course, but you knew that already.) What is not dogma is that it has to be included in every recitation of the Nicene Creed; but that should not be a surprise, as there are plenty of other dogmata which are not in the Creed either.

The question is, can we view things with this mindset yet be fully Catholic given that since Vatican II the Church holds that Orthodox theology is fully Catholic and forms the other “lung” of Catholicism?

Yes, and as Constantine indicates, that’s generally where the Eastern Catholic Churches come in. If there is no Eastern Catholic church around, one is certainly welcome to try to maintain their Eastern sensibilities in a Latin Rite parish, just as I would maintain my Latin sensibilities if I happened to move somewhere with only an Eastern Catholic parish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Perhaps for people who reject Western-Catholic theology (understood as a way of thinking about religious matters), but certainly not for people who reject dogmas of the Church, which are neither Eastern nor Western and must be held by all Catholics.

Thats why I put quotes on “reject”. Its not as if the Orthodox believes in something contradictory to what Catholics believe, besides the Papacy of course. But Eastern Catholics of course do not believe in Purgatory the way its defined in the West.

edit:
To add. Its not as if the Orthodox fully reject the Papacy. They believe the Pope to be first among equals and he occupies a place of honor among the Patriarchs. Its just that they don’t think of him to be supreme, much less infallible by himself throughout the universal Church.

 

[TrueLight]

Is purgatory optional for Roman Catholics? If it is not, then it makes no sense to me that it would be for RC’s but not for EC’s.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is purgatory optional for Roman Catholics? If it is not, then it makes no sense to me that it would be for RC’s but not for EC’s.

The universal teaching is that we should pray for the dead because our prayers and our Liturgies and our good works can help them gain forgiveness and it can help them get to heaven. Both sides agree on that.

Now, if you were to say that souls go to a fiery place to be purified, then that is Roman Catholic doctrine, not Eastern.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Is purgatory optional for Roman Catholics?

I’m not sure and won’t be answering the question. I’m a little confused in this area. I believe the Church teaches we cannot know where the soul of any individual has gone after death. There must be an exception to this: those the Church canonises have presumably gone to heaven.

Heaven and hell the Church teaches exists. I do not think the Church has ever taught the existence of limbo. I’m unsure of Her teaching on purgatory.

 

[RyanBlack]

I’m not sure and won’t be answering the question. I’m a little confused in this area. I believe the Church teaches we cannot know where the soul of any individual has gone after death. There must be an exception to this: those the Church canonises have presumably gone to heaven.

Heaven and hell the Church teaches exists. I do not think the Church has ever taught the existence of limbo. I’m unsure of Her teaching on purgatory.

One can either reject or accept limbo. Purgatory is a matter of dogma for Catholics; however, the particular way in which some Latin Catholics understand it as a place of purifying fire is not a matter of dogma.

 

[Volodymyr]

WESTERN/EASTERN

Perhaps I am wrong or have a wrong notion of Catolicism but I think that there is a big difference between Orthodox and Catolics regarding ecclesiology - Church as Organism and Church as Organization. It seems that we Orthodox believe that most important is Church as Organism (according to writings of St. Mikhail Novoselov) to which we go for mysteries, church services. For Catolics is more important Church as organization. Some Catolics go into enormous discussions regarding relative important bishop cardinal or priest cardinal who is a patriarch. This interest in organizational church is not true for average Orthodox. Orthodox knows there are bishops - some archbishops, some metropolitans and a Patriarch. But mostly he tthinks only about his Bishop. There may be priests, and protopriests - but only considers priest who is his. One consequence of this is there is less interest among Orthodox believers in decisions of “organizational” church. Decisions about validity of church services of other churches\obtuse conclusions angels number on a needle. This has some bad effects for Orthodox. But Catolics with their love of organizational Church seem always stressed if they do not believe every iota written in their catechism. They are profoundly disturbed that there are child molesters as priests and bishops, because Christ promised church is spotless and holy. And without distinction between Church as organism and church as organization - this may make them lose their faith.

So if this particular man believes he can find salvation in the Mysteries and Church services of the Catolic church, he probably is not so concerned about whether the place for the dead for whom we pray is called purgatory and is place of flames - he is only interested in praying for them. He will not worry to believe in Immaculate Conception, although he knows Mother of God committed no sin.

But Catolics insistent that all people come to love and trust their Church organization. But Catolics are almost always disappointed in it. Sad!

 

[TrueLight]

The universal teaching is that we should pray for the dead because our prayers and our Liturgies and our good works can help them gain forgiveness and it can help them get to heaven. Both sides agree on that.

Now, if you were to say that souls go to a fiery place to be purified, then that is Roman Catholic doctrine, not Eastern.

Yeah, I think I will go with the EC version.