Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Heretics - Dialectic Reasoning

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At this point I cannot. I thought that was clear in my comment to Rory that you quoted? I could point the EC where God’s creation ex nihilo was declared (that would be the 4th Lateran). I could then walk you through Aquinas and how he claimed that from these basics, God’s impassibility, immutability, and … all LOGICALLY followed.
So, instead of me digging through data in councils that I do not believe were sealed by the Holy Spirit (as I am the non-Catholic in this discussion). I would rather you deal with what I have presented.
I have very clearly suggested what I think Catholicism teaches. I have then asked that you either tell me I am mistaken OR explain how it is not a contradiction.
You have not shown what the church teaches as referenced in the Church councils; which means you can’t show those teachings to be illogical, because you haven’t shown then at all. This thread is a strawman. A collegiate level strawman, but a strawman all the same. I’m glad Rory helped us out, but I have lost interest in disproving every unreferenced strawman built again the Catholic Church.
I want Stephen168 to acknowledge that while he may think there are illogical aspects of LDS deification teachings (and I deny this with respect to how I conceive of LDS deification, but in fairness to Stephen I have not defined such for him to evaluate YET) that surely there are illogical aspects that he cannot resolve within Catholic theology.
I can’t acknowledge something you have not shown to be true. When given a chance to stand up for Mormon teaching you took the tu quoque / strawman approach.
None of that changes the fact that I hope to START MYSELF a thread about the consistent view of LDS deification that I believe I embrace. You will be welcome to tell me that despite all my claims of logic being important, I do not have a logical view. Or whatever you might say.
I’m looking forward to it.
 
ToM- I am not interested in modern ideas of religion. I am very familiar with Judaic differences when it comes to Orthodoxy, Conservatism and Reformed.

The Thirteen Principles of Faith constitutes the most well know Jewish Creed and it was formulated by the great Jewish medievalist Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides (1135-1204CE). It states, among other things, that God is Incorporeal and Incomparable.
And many modern Jewish theologians think that Maimonides was a bad influence on Jewish theology precisely because he brought in Greek philosophical concepts like impassibility. I’m not talking about hyper-liberal Jews here, but about folks like Abraham Joshua Heschel and Michael Wyschogrod.

Furthermore, I think most scholars would agree that ancient Jews don’t seem to have believed in God’s impassibility or even His incorporeality. Certainly the OT language points toward God having some kind of body. And the text Shi’ur Qomah, which Gershom Scholem dated to around A.D. 200, actually gives measurements of God’s body. Many folks argue that these texts shouldn’t be taken literally. I certainly agree that we have no theological imperative to take the Biblical texts literally. But at the same time, there is no evidence that I can see that the authors of the OT or of the Shi’ur Qomah believed in an incorporeal God.

I see this as a valid development in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, but I think Mormons are right in claiming that their view of God is closer to that of the authors of the Hebrew Bible in many ways.

Maimonides, after all, lived closer to our own time than to that of Jesus or Ezra, let alone the original Moses!

Edwin
 
Tom,

Thanks for this excellent thread. I have been thinking about these issues in the past few years, because I am teaching at an institution where the evangelical intellectual movement called “open theism” has been prominent. (In fact, it has caused a lot of controversy here.) One of the leading open theist philosophers, William Hasker, is a professor emeritus here and has urged on me considerations very like the ones you raise about God knowing our actions and loving us as individuals.

One of the issues I have with the open theists, and apparently with your position as well, is that I find paradox to be not only acceptable but even desired in any theology. However, I don’t think paradox and contradiction are the same thing. The mark of a true paradox, I think, is that it leaves room for there to be a resolution we cannot understand. We aren’t just stating nonsense.

The Councils do indeed assume God’s impassibility. However, in a sense the actual conclusions of the Councils question God’s impassibility. The whole point of Christian teaching–the thing that led to so much controversy in the early centuries–is that the Christian doctrine of Incarnation posits of God actions that shouldn’t be possible by the theory of impassibility. This is why pagan intellectuals ridiculed Christianity, and probably why St. Paul calls Christianity “foolishness.”

I don’t think that simply chucking impassibility and the other traditional attributes is the answer. I think that then the Incarnation loses much of its meaning. To say that Zeus has a son is not paradoxical and not even very important. Zeus as defined in Greek mythology is a superhuman being with a body of a more “refined” nature than ours, but basically a being of a similar kind to us. To say that an immaterial and impassible God enters history is paradoxical, but for that very reason it’s something worth basing one’s faith on.

That does not relieve us of the responsibility of trying to figure out how to talk about this without contradiction. Here I think your criticisms of Aquinas may have merit–they are similar to those of the open theists. I love Aquinas and am still trying to understand him better and to see how these critiques can be answered. But I think the Eastern Orthodox may have a better approach. I don’t think you are right in ascribing to them the view that contradiction simply doesn’t matter, though no doubt some of them speak that way. Rather, there are two key claims made by the Orthodox that are relevant to the questions you raise.
  1. God’s essence is unknowable. This is different from the Joseph Smith quote you gave, and even from the position of Aquinas, because it doesn’t simply say that as we are now we can’t understand the reality of God. It posits that even in a glorified state we cannot make positive statements about the divine Essence.
  2. Orthodox theology makes a distinction between God’s essence and His energies. God’s essence is indeed impassible and even unknowable. But the divine Persons act in history (always as one). This action or energy can be known and experienced–and conversely this allows us to speak of God knowing and loving us as individuals.
This certainly raises questions and difficulties. It’s certainly paradoxical. But I don’t think it’s contradictory, and I think it may help address some of the questions you raise.

If you are interested in exploring Eastern Christian thought further, I’d recommend the following books:

*The Orthodox Church, *by Kallistos Ware. You may know this already–it’s the basic textbook on the subject, covering history and theology.
*Eastern Orthodox Theology: A Contemporary Reader, *edited by Daniel Clendenin. This contains essays by some of the leading modern Orthodox theologians.
*Byzantine Theology, *by John Meyendorff. This is both a historical and theological survey of medieval Orthodox thought.
*The Orthodox Way, *again by Ware. This is a short book on the Orthodox spiritual life, more personal than The Orthodox Church.
And finally, there are three Byzantine theologians who are particularly important for understanding these issues: Maximus the Confessor (instrumental in the Sixth Council), Symeon the New Theologian, and Gregory Palamas. (The fourth-century Cappadocians, and the eighth-century theologian John of Damascus, are also very important.)

Edwin
 
I see this as a valid development in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, but I think Mormons are right in claiming that their view of God is closer to that of the authors of the Hebrew Bible in many ways.

Maimonides, after all, lived closer to our own time than to that of Jesus or Ezra, let alone the original Moses!

Edwin
Thanks for that- I am LDS and have been maintaining that here for years.
 
Hey Edwin (my Dad’s name, R.I.P.),

Nothing of substance to contribute. We joined Catholics Answers together. June 4, 2004.
 
Hey bukowski. If he didn’t like Edwin and went by David instead, you must be long lost LDS brother I didn’t know I had!
Hey bro!
That’s funny- my dad didn’t particularly like Edwin either and sometimes went by nicknames!
 
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