Eastern Orthodox Christian Forum

[theistgal]

Sorry…

It’s another game nobody wins.

Speak for yourself - I was Tic-Tac-Toe champ in my 4th grade class in Joplin, MO!

Seriously, re: the topic, I looked at the forum and frankly, I don’t think the people there were any more anti-Catholic than CAF is anti-Orthodox, anti-Protestant or anti-Muslim. There are plenty of folks right here at CAF who say offensive things about those other religions - perhaps for the same reason as (some, not all!*) the Orthodox at that other forum: lack of education.

Or heck, it could just be the nature of the Net. I once saw a flame war erupt on a forum dedicated to women with long hair, when one of the long-time participants got her hair CUT without asking the forum’s opinion first! Let’s face it, the Internet makes people cah-RAZEEE!

(*I qualified that because if you read it more closely, it’s obvious that at least one person there was trying to defuse the anti-Catholic sentiment.)

 

[cathopologist]

I was reading some posts in this fourm a nd discovered they were very anti catholic. Why do they hate the church so much?

Part of the problem lies with Protestant converts to the Orthodox Church. Prior to their conversion, they always had a deep sense of animosity towards the Catholic Church (When i mean “Protestant”, i really mean the “Fundamentalists”, not mainstream Protestantism). Of course, this problem isn’t only found in the Orthodox Church. I have also noticed this trend in Protestant-Catholic converts where they babble about how “this religion is wicked” and how “listening to heavy metal music is the devil’s music” or why “Eastern exercises/martial arts is evil”, etc. etc. Sometimes old habits are hard to let go.

 

[theistgal]

Anyway, here’s a way better Orthodox site you may find more relaxing (and ecumenical!) than any forum. I especially get a kick out of “Father Vasily”!

 

[Hesychios]

Part of the problem lies with Protestant converts to the Orthodox Church. Prior to their conversion, they always had a deep sense of animosity towards the Catholic Church (When i mean “Protestant”, i really mean the “Fundamentalists”, not mainstream Protestantism). …

I think this argument is tired and old and way overplayed.

I have close personal experience with converts to Orthodoxy from every direction, and this generalization in completely inadequate.

The fact is most Orthodox are Orthodox because they see it as Truth, just as most Roman Catholics are Roman Catholics because they see THAT as truth. Of course from that perspective nothing else will measure up.

Moves of Protestants and unchurched individuals in either possible direction have high bars to cross: the Roman Catholic church has the Papacy which is a lot of work to explain properly and the Orthodox have the “alien cultural milieu” which requires a lot of interior fortitude and a thick skin to overcome.

What I see repeated here far too often is the idea that people choose to be Roman Catholic because it is “right and true” but they choose to be Orthodox because “they must be prejudiced”. That’s just bunk, and doesn’t even come close to addressing the complexity of this decision for most people.

Another bugaboo I read here a lot is that Orthodox dislike authority. What people fail to acknowledge, but most converts soon find out, is that Orthodox churches have a lot more episcopal authority bearing directly down upon them, and they have a far more serious lifestyle adjustment to make over the old environment from which they come, compared with becoming a Roman Catholic.

The disciplines are harder, the fasting is far more demanding and not just a symbolic gesture. Confession is rigorous and frequent and never anonymous. Worship is much longer, in some parishes entirely standing for as much as three and one half hours. When we do kneel it’s not just like dipping our knees on some cushion, we get on all fours and press our foreheads to the floor, nothing but butts and elbows as far as you can see. Visitors are invited to kiss the cross and the priests hand the very first time they attend, this is a super emotional adjustment for many Protestants taught to fear “idolatry” and “man made traditions” who tend to freak out and not come back.

One’s level of commitment is ratcheted up considerably. But what we read here is that “they become Orthodox because they carry Protestant prejudices”. That kind of comment is completely out of place to anyone who knows…

 

[Dogiel]

Sorry…

It’s another game nobody wins.

Do you remember the movie Wargames?

There are two games nobody wins:

Tic-tac-to

Thermonuclear War

And now we have internet debate about religion…

The self-learning computer in the movie finally states “a strange game, the only winning move is not to play”

Nobody wins around here, the players just change sides every once in a while.

The problems between us will not be solved here, but at another level. The best we, as pewpeople, can hope for is to meet and understand one another a little better, and learn to appreciate each other.

That’s why the rudeness is not helpful.

Pax et Bonum,

Thank you , now I understand your point. When we play the game I am right your wrong no one wins. That was my point.

As far rudeness, I was not trying to be rude. I was just sad at what I had read at that other forum. I know Catholics can be just as nasty to EO as well and that is just as sad.

My qustion is how can we become closer? And you answered that. Thank you.

 

[Dogiel]

Well, why do some Catholics hate protestants? It’s opinoins my friend, just because one orthodox person on a forum, or even a group, or even the forum, means all Orthodox, or even a majority hate Catholics, just means those do.

As to a reason, maybe some of them are ex-catholics who were treated unfairly, or something of that sort, maybe they just need someone to hate.

No Catholic should hate protestants. But I don’t see the them the same way as the Orthodox Church.

The EO have: Valid Sacraments, Apostolic succesion, and we share the same history of being the church founded by our Lord. There are other reasons, but sorry I am not that smart and can’t recall the others.

I don’t find these things in any protestant churchs I know of. That does not mean that protestants are our brothers in Christ, I think most are. Others have just fallen so far away from what the Chuch teaches that it is hard to even to think of them as Christian.

 

[CatholicLife]

Thanks everyone!

 

[Peter_J]

I think Hesychios hit the nail on the head:

We might just as well be realistic, there are Catholic forums that appear anti-Orthodox and Orthodox forums that appear anti-Catholic.

There’s plenty of anti-Catholicism and anti-Orthodoxy (and anti-Protestantism) on the internet. Nobody has a monopoly on prejudice or on taking cheap shots.

 

[BareKnuckler]

No Catholic should hate protestants. But I don’t see the them the same way as the Orthodox Church.

The EO have: Valid Sacraments, Apostolic succesion, and we share the same history of being the church founded by our Lord. There are other reasons, but sorry I am not that smart and can’t recall the others.

I don’t find these things in any protestant churchs I know of. That does not mean that protestants are our brothers in Christ, I think most are. Others have just fallen so far away from what the Chuch teaches that it is hard to even to think of them as Christian.

Out of that whole post, none of it seemed relevant to my post. Just because no Catholic should hate protestants, doesn’t mean none do.

 

[Dogiel]

Out of that whole post, none of it seemed relevant to my post. Just because no Catholic should hate protestants, doesn’t mean none do.

And there are protestants that hate Catholics, so what is your point?

 

[BareKnuckler]

And there are protestants that hate Catholics, so what is your point?

That it doesn’t matter what religion they are, hate is hate.

 

[Seamus_L]

I know that I have a better understanding with a staunch Orthodox, who clearly says “We do not believe the same things as you”, then I do with an ecumenically minded Catholic who insists we’re looking at the same thing from different perspectives.

 

[Mickey]

I think this argument is tired and old and way overplayed.

I have close personal experience with converts to Orthodoxy from every direction, and this generalization in completely inadequate.

The fact is most Orthodox are Orthodox because they see it as Truth, just as most Roman Catholics are Roman Catholics because they see THAT as truth. Of course from that perspective nothing else will measure up.

Moves of Protestants and unchurched individuals in either possible direction have high bars to cross: the Roman Catholic church has the Papacy which is a lot of work to explain properly and the Orthodox have the “alien cultural milieu” which requires a lot of interior fortitude and a thick skin to overcome.

What I see repeated here far too often is the idea that people choose to be Roman Catholic because it is “right and true” but they choose to be Orthodox because “they must be prejudiced”. That’s just bunk, and doesn’t even come close to addressing the complexity of this decision for most people.

Another bugaboo I read here a lot is that Orthodox dislike authority. What people fail to acknowledge, but most converts soon find out, is that Orthodox churches have a lot more episcopal authority bearing directly down upon them, and they have a far more serious lifestyle adjustment to make over the old environment from which they come, compared with becoming a Roman Catholic.

The disciplines are harder, the fasting is far more demanding and not just a symbolic gesture. Confession is rigorous and frequent and never anonymous. Worship is much longer, in some parishes entirely standing for as much as three and one half hours. When we do kneel it’s not just like dipping our knees on some cushion, we get on all fours and press our foreheads to the floor, nothing but butts and elbows as far as you can see. Visitors are invited to kiss the cross and the priests hand the very first time they attend, this is a super emotional adjustment for many Protestants taught to fear “idolatry” and “man made traditions” who tend to freak out and not come back.

One’s level of commitment is ratcheted up considerably. But what we read here is that “they become Orthodox because they carry Protestant prejudices”. That kind of comment is completely out of place to anyone who knows…

Excellent post! This sums it up nicely! Thank you Michael.

 

[theistgal]

This whole thread reminded of that great old Tom Lehrer song, “National Brotherhood Week”:

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Moslems
And everybody hates the Jews!

 

[excaliber]

How can an Orthodox NOT be Catholic??
When I read in the bible that peter
was given the keys of the kingdom
not to mention given the name rock by God…I don’t have a choice, I must side with Peter.

So how is it that Orthodox feel they do have a choice?

I actualy liked the Orthodox that I spoke to, but how is it possible to remain separate from rome?

Also we know God was aware that
this could happen…Isint that why we have the bishop of rome…so as to avoid this?

If God wanted to use counsils…why wasn’t there a Universal counsil to handle the situation LONG before it became a problem?

I also find it interesting that the debate is ultimately about power,
and someone wants power and won’t submit. Bishops are very intelligent and its hard to believe that they don’t have the ABILITY to
figure this out. I think some don’t WANT to figure it out because of the posible lose of power.

 

[Mickey]

How can an Orthodox NOT be Catholic??
When I read in the bible that peter
was given the keys of the kingdom
not to mention given the name rock by God…I don’t have a choice, I must side with Peter.

So how is it that Orthodox feel they do have a choice?

There have been many threads about this. The Holy Orthodox Church has St Peter also. We understand the “Rock” to mean St Peter’s confession of faith. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation and Christ is the Cornerstone.

Do a search on your inquiry. There are many good posts. Or start your own thread.

 

[excaliber]

There have been many threads about this. The Holy Orthodox Church has St Peter also. We understand the “Rock” to mean St Peter’s confession of faith. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation and Christ is the Cornerstone.

Do a search on your inquiry. There are many good posts. Or start your own thread.

yes many threads that go know place, those arguments don’t get resolved.

What you say sounds good, but can you explan how Jesus would build his church on a confesion of faith that both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all have. Or on ALL apostles when ALL the churches I mentioned are connected to the Apostles??

 

[Hesychios]

How can an Orthodox NOT be Catholic??
When I read in the bible that peter
was given the keys of the kingdom
not to mention given the name rock by God…I don’t have a choice, I must side with Peter.

Orthodox have always been Catholic, same as ever.

So how is it that Orthodox feel they do have a choice?

Choice does not enter into it.

We are the church.

I actualy liked the Orthodox that I spoke to, but how is it possible to remain separate from rome?

The church of the city of Rome separated from Holy Orthodoxy. We are not happy about that, and pray for their return. We do not know how they can possibly wish to continue separated from Holy Orthodoxy, separated from the Faith of Peter, John, James, Paul…

Also we know God was aware that
this could happen…Isint that why we have the bishop of rome…so as to avoid this?

If history has shown us one thing, it is that the bishop of Rome cannot hold the church together, and frequently is the cause of schism. Some of the most catastrophic divisions have occurred right under the watch of the bishops of Rome, who mightily contributed to the problems.

I also find it interesting that the debate is ultimately about power,

Power is exactly the term used in the Latin code of Canons, how ironic.

…and someone wants power and won’t submit. Bishops are very intelligent and its hard to believe that they don’t have the ABILITY to
figure this out. I think some don’t WANT to figure it out because of the posible lose of power.

This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[theistgal]

How can an Orthodox NOT be Catholic??

You do know that they say the same thing, in reverse.

 

[excaliber]

Orthodox have always been Catholic, same as ever.
Choice does not enter into it.

We are the church.
The church of the city of Rome separated from Holy Orthodoxy. We are not happy about that, and pray for their return. We do not know how they can possibly wish to continue separated from Holy Orthodoxy, separated from the Faith of Peter, John, James, Paul…
If history has shown us one thing, it is that the bishop of Rome cannot hold the church together, and frequently is the cause of schism. Some of the most catastrophic divisions have occurred right under the watch of the bishops of Rome, who mightily contributed to the problems. Power is exactly the term used in the Latin code of Canons, how ironic. This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

If you are THE church, surely you
can provide some proof that God is
among you and NOT among the Roman Catholic church.

If there was proof that Rome was wrong, I asure you that I would repent and go to Orthodox church THIS sunday. But where is it, I have not seen holy fire. We can prove baptists and mormons and everyone else wrong easily…why
then can’t an Orthodox show me from scripture or from an athoritative sorce that Rome is incorect?

If Rome was wrong God would give us the wisdom to avoid error would he not?