Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Immaculate Conception?

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I know that Catholics (in communion with Rome) and Eastern Orthodox Christians differ on the Immaculate Conception but Eastern Orthodox Christians still believe Mary was sinless? So if they both believe Mary was sinless. How do they differ on the Immaculate Conception?
 
I know that Catholics (in communion with Rome) and Eastern Orthodox Christians differ on the Immaculate Conception but Eastern Orthodox Christians still believe Mary was sinless? So if they both believe Mary was sinless. How do they differ on the Immaculate Conception?
The eastern scope and praxis is not like the western scope and legality; the way original sin is thought about is very semitic, as opposed to political correctness.
For us, original sin is thought of as something inherited, such as it is ingrained in our DNA, as if it was a spiritual mutation. And so, it is passed from father to son, and so forth.
For eastern schools of thought, original sin is thought of as inheritance, such as inheriting a house from your father. Rather than a mutation, it is regarded more as a baggage. In my eyes, its the same thing; some people would consider otherwise. There are many other small details that help define this, but that would derail the answer beyond an exposition.

With that background information said, it is my knowledge that the Orthodox believe that the Theokos was assumed into Heaven-- immaculate. She was saved from the stain of original sin, rather than original sin itself. At Pentecost, she was infused with the Holy Spirit, and made entirely ready for the kingdom of God.

At least, that is my very primitive understanding of it. 🤷
 
The greatest opposition I’ve seen given to the idea (and which I agree with), is that the Catholic doctrine makes the theotokos into something more than a woman.

Taken to its most basic principles, stripped of any of the theological language of the East or West, the doctrine is the idea that Mary was specially prepared for her mission by God.

The Orthodox belief is that there was no need to specially prepare her, that she simply had to say yes (and this is contrasted with Eve, who said “no”).

In my personal opinion, as long as the Catholic Church doesn’t try to enforce this believe on the East, it isn’t a hinderance to reconciliation.
 
The greatest opposition I’ve seen given to the idea (and which I agree with), is that the Catholic doctrine makes the theotokos into something more than a woman.

Taken to its most basic principles, stripped of any of the theological language of the East or West, the doctrine is the idea that Mary was specially prepared for her mission by God.

The Orthodox belief is that there was no need to specially prepare her, that she simply had to say yes (and this is contrasted with Eve, who said “no”).

In my personal opinion, as long as the Catholic Church doesn’t try to enforce this believe on the East, it isn’t a hinderance to reconciliation.
Funny because, my own view is that the Orthodox denial of Mary’s special preparation does just what you accuse the Catholics of- make her something more than a woman! 🤷

I’ve asked this question a few times before and never even once gotten an answer: Mary was born and lived in a situation of no sacraments- until she was at-least around fifty, when the church was formed. She was not baptized as a baby. Yet the Orthodox say she was perfectly sinless. This leaves me asking: How? What kind of human being can (without special help/preparation) remain perfectly sinless, beat all the effects of the fallen World? What? Either this is no ordinary human being we are talking about, or we have to fall into pelagianism and say that there are some (like the Theotokos) who are actually NOT absolutely dependent on divine grace for holiness. 🤷

The Catholic belief acknowledges unflinchingly that Our Lady, (like every single one of us) would have to have grace to be Holy. The immaculate Conception is this granting of the Grace to her and this Grace is the ONLY reason she could remain perfectly Holy throughout her entire life. Her obedience through her free will is the reason she did remain perfectly Holy.
 
The Virgin Mary need to be saved just like everyone else. She said it herself when see said she rejoy’s in GOD her savior. I can’t give you the direct quote. She was able to sin but didn’t because of her love for GOD… My view is she had to give herself willing to GOD in order to correct what Eve did wrong in the garden.
 
The Virgin Mary need to be saved just like everyone else. She said it herself when see said she rejoy’s in GOD her savior. I can’t give you the direct quote.
Yes, and the immaculate Conception acknowledges this very fact! Without God’s grace, there’s no holiness, not even for our beloved Mother.
 
Immaculate Conception in Roman Catholic view is that she was born without sin. If she was the Immaculate Conception she would not need a Savior like Jesus Christ to save her from her sins.
 
Immaculate Conception in Roman Catholic view is that she was born without sin. If she was the Immaculate Conception she would not need a Savior like Jesus Christ to save her from her sins.
Your logic is flawed. Did she give herself the grace that allowed her to be sinless? By your logic, the Orthodox also make her to not need a saviour, since she NEVER sinned- therefore did not need salvation. Such arguments are more suitable coming from Protestants- from Orthodox they just make no sense. :confused:
 
The Bible is without error what she said happen. This is why the Immaculate Conception spelled with a big (I) and (C) is not right, but if you were to spell it with a small (i) or a small (c) that would better it would come closer to what is written in the Bible.
 
Grace come only from GOD. Roman Catholic view gives us a GODDESS who like GOD has no sin. That would mean she would not need salvation.
 
Grace come only from GOD. Roman Catholic view gives us a GODDESS who like GOD has no sin.
This must be one of the grossest lies I’ve ever read on these forums!!! Show me ANYwhere where the Catholic view teaches that Grace comes from anyone but God??? Are you just making things up for the sake of a debate or are you serious with your outlandish accusations? The Immaculate Conception definition says specifically that Mary was infused with Grace at her conception. I doubt if you’ve ever even attempted to read any catholic teaching!
 
Without GOD we would not be here. The would be no Birth of Christ, no Raising from the dead not even Heaven for man, no nothing. GOD give the grace freely to all to except or reject. The Virgin Mary gave herself to GOD to do what HE needed to do in order to save us all. She mother all Christians. From that to the end of the world she will be praised here on Earth.

The is not outlandish accusations on my part.
 
Without GOD we would not be here. The would be no Birth of Christ, no Raising from the dead not even Heaven for man, no nothing. GOD give the grace freely to all to except or reject. The Virgin Mary gave herself to GOD to do what HE needed to do in order to save us all. She mother all Christians. From that to the end of the world she will be praised here on Earth.

The is not outlandish accusations on my part.
Your outlandish accusation is saying that catholics teach that grace does not come from God. It’s not just outlandish- it’s slander, of the worst kind!!! Point where the Catholic Church teaches that grace does not come from God. I’m having a hard time believing that you’re actually serious!! Please tell me you’re just trying to make a joke, though failing miserably?
 
slandering anyone is not my point. All I trying to say that only gives grace no one else can. The Virgin Mary gets grace from GOD. When I spoke about the GODDESS view what I was saying that if she was born without sin she would be like a GODDESS. Not that she is one. Your twisting words around.

The Virgin Mary is a normal human being just like anyone else. What makes her great among women is her giving of herself like she did. We as Orthodox Christians hold her in greats of all mothers. We venerate her and she is always pictured in Icons with the baby Jesus.

Relax, no offence given here.

We Orthodox will enjoy Christmas tonight. Enjoy this from the Serbian Tradition.

youtube.com/watch?v=XP48UFTG8A4&feature=relmfu
Serbian Christmas Tradition Is A Blast
 
slandering anyone is not my point. All I trying to say that only gives grace no one else can. The Virgin Mary gets grace from GOD. When I spoke about the GODDESS view what I was saying that if she was born without sin she would be like a GODDESS. Not that she is one. Your twisting words around.
There’s no twisting here- The Catholic Church has NEVER in 2,000 years, EVER taught that Grace comes from anywhere but God. Never. It is Catholic teaching that Grace comes from God ALONE. It’s Catholic teaching that GOD gave grace to Mary from her conception. It is catholic teaching that GOD’s grace ALONE enables anyone to be free of sin, including Mary. Both orthodox and Catholics say that Mary had NO sin. So your accusation is not just outlandish, slanderous, calumnious, but self-defeating as well! By your Logic, the Orthodox make Mary a Goddess who was completely without sin and did not need salvation.

This conversation is just silly. Honestly, it’s making me annoyed, so I’ll bow out before I “speak my mind” and get myself in trouble.
 
The Orthodox do not believe in the concept of “original sin” as Catholic do. Orthodox believe in “ancestral sin” we inherited the fallen human condition from Adam and Eve, and you are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin. So the IC is rather a moot point because Mary wasn’t born with “original sin” in the first place as you and I wasn’t born with it either. Mary and the rest of us needed a Saviour to bridge that disobedience from Adam and Eve and to fix our relationship with God.
 
Sounds good but then of course theres the BIBLE?

Romans-5-12
“Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin, death; and so death passed upon all men”.

Romans-5:19
Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, “for as by the disobedience of one man many [all mankind] were made sinners”

So how are you NOT guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin…of Course Biblically speaking? 🤷

Pehaps theres more clearer Biblical verse I’m unaware of?
 
Sounds good but then of course theres the BIBLE?

Romans-5-12
“Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin, death; and so death passed upon all men”.

Romans-5:19
Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, “for as by the disobedience of one man many [all mankind] were made sinners”

So how are you NOT guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin…of Course Biblically speaking? 🤷

Pehaps theres more clearer Biblical verse I’m unaware of?
I think you may benefit from reviewing the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this matter:

"The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#III
 
The Orthodox do not believe in the concept of “original sin” as Catholic do. Orthodox believe in “ancestral sin” we inherited the fallen human condition from Adam and Eve, and you are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin. So the IC is rather a moot point because Mary wasn’t born with “original sin” in the first place as you and I wasn’t born with it either. Mary and the rest of us needed a Saviour to bridge that disobedience from Adam and Eve and to fix our relationship with God.
Thank You FOX !!! You got it right! This is the truth you’re reading right here…Thank you once again. GOD bless.
 
Funny because, my own view is that the Orthodox denial of Mary’s special preparation does just what you accuse the Catholics of- make her something more than a woman! 🤷
Why? Because she was able to resist temptation? Are you somehow superhuman every time you resist a temptation? Of course not. How does having a perfect record make you so?
I’ve asked this question a few times before and never even once gotten an answer: Mary was born and lived in a situation of no sacraments- until she was at-least around fifty, when the church was formed. She was not baptized as a baby. Yet the Orthodox say she was perfectly sinless. This leaves me asking: How? What kind of human being can (without special help/preparation) remain perfectly sinless, beat all the effects of the fallen World? What? Either this is no ordinary human being we are talking about, or we have to fall into pelagianism and say that there are some (like the Theotokos) who are actually NOT absolutely dependent on divine grace for holiness. 🤷
Has your baptism made it easier for you to not sin? Baptism is for the washing away of sin, but it does not make it easier not to sin. Pelagius taught that man could get to God on his own, while the orthodox theology of both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church teaches that we need God. We also both agree it is because of the Ancestral Sin/Original Sin which placed a barrier between us and God that only God can overcome. Baptism does not, on its own, overcome this barrier. Infact before Christ it was through the law that the Jews were to overcome this barrier, and the Theotokos lived according to the law.

Hopefully that answer gives an indication of what we believe. I am no deep theologeon, and accept my description may be flawed in some respects, but it is the general gist.
The Catholic belief acknowledges unflinchingly that Our Lady, (like every single one of us) would have to have grace to be Holy. The immaculate Conception is this granting of the Grace to her and this Grace is the ONLY reason she could remain perfectly Holy throughout her entire life. Her obedience through her free will is the reason she did remain perfectly Holy.
Yes, and we don’t have that belief.
 
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