Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Immaculate Conception?

[Hesychios]

Yes they are- it’s quite clear from nine’s posts that he believes Mary could be holy by her sheer will and not by God’s grace.

You are putting words into peoples mouths and twisting arguments.

It is disingenuous, and does no credit to you or the points you are trying to make.

Now then, you made the point that Saint Mary of Nazareth “got her Grace at the point of conception” and I supposed that you meant that is how she never sinned. Am I correct in this?

What is the point of this claim? Is it that you believe that without this grace she would have sinned in the womb, or sinned as a suckling baby, or sinned as a five year old?

Saint Mary the Theotokos received all the same graces of God that all of us receive, in the same way and the same times. In other words there was no exceptional order or amount of grace. She was in life an ordinary girl. There is no warrant to claim that she was treated any differently by God.

She and you are exactly alike in this respect. If she was ‘immaculately’ conceived you were too. If you were not, she was not.

It’s that simple.

 

[Marybeloved]

You are putting words into peoples mouths and twisting arguments.

It is disingenuous, and does no credit to you or the points you are trying to make.

You can make up accusations all you want. The posts are here for all to read- twisting arguments .

Now then, you made the point that Saint Mary of Nazareth “got her Grace at the point of conception” and I supposed that you meant that is how she never sinned. Am I correct in this?

What is the point of this claim? Is it that you believe that without this grace she would have sinned in the womb, or sinned as a suckling baby, or sinned as a five year old?

Saint Mary the Theotokos received all the same graces of God that all of us receive, in the same way and the same times. In other words there was no exceptional order or amount of grace. She was in life an ordinary girl. There is no warrant to claim that she was treated any differently by God.

She and you are exactly alike in this respect. If she was ‘immaculately’ conceived you were too. If you were not, she was not.

It’s that simple.

Of course it’s not. We undergo the grace of conversion- did she? Perhaps you can tell me when. Our Lady was called made full of grace- I don’t recall anyone else being called that apart from Christ. How is that the “same graces, same way, same time”? Are you full of grace? About the sinning as a baby, perhaps you can explain why you baptize and chrismate babies in your church. And I’m not twisting anyone’s words- nine’s and my posts are here for all to read. All your talk about “an ordinary” girl is just the usual polemics- grace has never made anyone not ordinary- I have no idea how it’s supposed to have that effect on Mary. We are born without communion with the Blessed trinity or the indwelling thereof until the sacraments- did she live like that?

 

[Hesychios]

Of course it’s not. We undergo the grace of conversion- did she? Perhaps you can tell me when. Our Lady was called made full of grace- I don’t recall anyone else being called that apart from Christ.

Interesting that you should mention it.

She was already old enough to understand the angel when it said this. There is no reference to her having been full of grace even from birth.

Secondly, I am not sure that what we mean by ‘full of grace’ can be taken for granted.

To Orthodox grace is God. It is not a thing to be parceled out. Grace is God himself, and God is “everywhere present and filling all things”. (So it is not a given that being full of grace is a way of saying she is sinless her entire life or not.)

We assume she was sinless and praise her for it, but that does not mean she was conceived any differently from anyone else (a notion unknown to early Christianity). In other words, this sinlessness is something achievable by all people.

I think it should be obvious to everyone here, participants and lurkers alike, that Orthodox Catholics and Roman Catholics have different ways of looking at the meaning and function of baptism. I know you have encountered this before.

It is largely this difference which seems to have colored our perceptions.

For Orthodox, baptism is a dying (and ‘burial’) to this world (let us call it a wicked world), and rising to a new life in Christ. It is not a presumption that an infant has any sins to forgive, but baptism like other sacraments does forgive sins. This was important to adult converts when Christianity was spreading. For them is was a chance to start over, it was truly good news.

For saint Mary, like the rest of us, life was an opportunity to cooperate with God, to always say yes. She was a great example for us to follow, not a great exception.

 

[Marybeloved]

We assume she was sinless and praise her for it, but that does not mean she was conceived any differently from anyone else (a notion unknown to early Christianity). In other words, this sinlessness is something achievable by all people.

Really? The Bible seems to indicate it was absolutely impossible for us until Christ’s act before God.

I think it should be obvious to everyone here, participants and lurkers alike, that Orthodox Catholics and Roman Catholics have different ways of looking at the meaning and function of baptism. I know you have encountered this before.

I have, and whatever way you put it, I know it’s the beginning of eternal life for that soul who has died and risen. This eternal life is grace.

For Orthodox, baptism is a dying (and ‘burial’) to this world (let us call it a wicked world), and rising to a new life in Christ.

And the new life is what we call grace. Why exactly is it “new” if we had it all along?

It is not a presumption that an infant has any sins to forgive,

The same old polemics- baptism of the infant in CC is the beginning of eternal life/sanctifying grace- not the forgiving of sins.

For saint Mary, like the rest of us, life was an opportunity to cooperate with God, to always say yes.

So she did not rise to the “new life” like you? She was still in the wicked world (and sinless) when the angel greeted her?

She was a great example for us to follow, not a great exception.

I knew I heard this little slogan from an Orthodox- I recall an Orthodox poster here at CAF decrying it as false because obviously Mary is an exception- I don’t recall any one referred to as The Lord’s Mother or kecharitomene. I’m sure you’re not God’s parent, so the slogan really makes no sense.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You seem to have missed the word “no” in my post. I wrote “we hold no guilt or responsibility over it.”

Ok now that were back on point and realize thats your statement above. My question is what does that have to do with anything?

We own it, we inherited it. What does “we hold ‘no’ guilt or reponsibility over it” have to do with the conversation? Thats what I’m trying to comprehend Biblically, ECFs or current address from a Patriarch would be great. Have any as I’ve asked earlier?

Which is why I posted Benedict XVI take on Original Sin. Which I shall even use my own lacking understanding and knowledge in humility to further develope.

Faith is a supernatural infused Virtue that each of us receive at the moment of Baptism. This infused Virtue or Sacrement does not always remain in every Baptized Soul. In many case’s it is lost. Why? Because many are not aware we have an “obligation” to preserve it. Had this not been a reality no one Baptized would ever go to hell.

So then the basis of our salvation is our faith. It is impossible to please our Lord without Faith. But Faith standing alone idle is not enough, thus the constant practice of faith. For if faith is taken/lost we cannot be saved without regaining the faith. Which IMHO coincides with where Grace, Sancification come into play.

Thus when its stated “we hold ‘no’ guilt or reponsibility over it” I fail to see how this is in fact true when first of all while you may not be directly responsible for your acquired state, a constant responsibility does come along the postion we find ourselves in from this consequence. In fact when we say “we hold no guilt or responsibility” over our Ancestrial State, to me it sounds counterproductive in resolving the issue at hand.

Follow my thinking now, it almost seems to abolish us of the position we are in fact in. Which would also seem in contrast to the context of St Paul is which he goe’s on to develope in Romans, which obviously the CC has constantly used in definition of Original Sin.

Anyway, no need for intricate dialogue I want to move foward with the IC. Just Saying.

 

[Marybeloved]

Interesting that you should mention it.

She was already old enough to understand the angel when it said this. There is no reference to her having been full of grace even from birth.

When the Angel greeted her, she was already “full of grace”. It was the name he called her. We Catholics do not put a point at which she was without it, then got this grace. We say she always had it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

When the Angel greeted her, she was already “full of grace”. It was the name he called her. We Catholics do not put a point at which she was without it, then got this grace. We say she always had it.

In fact it could only be One of Three way which Duns Scotus pretty much summed up. I believe as a Catholic Militant, its most fitting that Mary was Conceived without Sin. IMHO the God who walked Daniel out of the Lions Den, Split the Sea for Mose’s and bought the plagues upon Egypt, told Noah to build a Ark on Dry Land, without doubt had very Great plans for the Blessed Virgin Mother.

To me its better to err on the plus side and not on the minus side. Just good logic IMHO.

 

[Hesychios]

When the Angel greeted her, she was already “full of grace”. It was the name he called her. We Catholics do not put a point at which she was without it, then got this grace. We say she always had it.

That is understandable.

But it is an assumption early Christians east and west did not make. It is a belief of late origin, and therefore not Apostolic.

 

[Hesychios]

… I’m sure you’re not God’s parent, so the slogan really makes no sense.

Your post seems to me a bit incoherent, perhaps you need a rest.

If you would open your eyes and your heart you should be able to understand what Orthodox have been saying all along. Saint Mary is one of us, God chose her so that He could become incarnate, a man with a body like us. We are not claiming she was defiled in any way, and we are not claiming she was perfect. She was just an ordinary person who chose to do good, and we honor her for this.

You seem to be grasping at some way to respond without acknowledging that the Orthodox Catholic belief is the ancient original belief.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That is understandable.

But it is an assumption early Christians east and west did not make. It is a belief of late origin, and therefore not Apostolic.

Developed Doctrine no question about it Michael. However, much earlier than most would be lead to believe though.

 

[Marybeloved]

That is understandable.

But it is an assumption early Christians east and west did not make. It is a belief of late origin, and therefore not Apostolic.

Really? I recall reading at such a thread at the Eastern Forum many many quotes indicating such an assumption about Mary, as well as something about an Eastern feast indicating this state of our lady already, as a child of three…? So before she was three, she was graced…

 

[Hesychios]

Really? I recall reading at such a thread at the Eastern Forum many many quotes indicating such an assumption about Mary, as well as something about an Eastern feast indicating this state of our lady already, as a child of three…? So before she was three, she was graced…

Again, we are apparently not using grace in the same manner.

Secondly, the age of three is not conception, no one is conceived three years old.

Thirdly, I ask you what the point was. Does this mean that she was incapable of sinning at the age of three? Does it mean she did not sin by the age of three? What is the point?

 

[Marybeloved]

Your post seems to me a bit incoherent, perhaps you need a rest.

How typical! …I suppose you think this little slur can hide the glaring absurdity of insisting that the only woman who was made God’s mother was not an exception.

If you would open your eyes and your heart you should be able to understand what Orthodox have been saying all along. Saint Mary is one of us,

And if you would quit the polemics you would admit (because I know it’s not a matter of not knowing with you) that Grace does not make anyone “not” one of us. If that were true then Christ is not one of us. Of course you don’t believe that.

We are not claiming she was defiled in any way, and we are not claiming she was perfect.

Ummh…really? All Holy, spotless, sinless is as “perfect” as you can get.

She was just an ordinary person who chose to do good, and we honor her for this.

And grace would not (and DID not) make her not an ordinary person.

You seem to be grasping at some way to respond without acknowledging that the Orthodox Catholic belief is the ancient original belief.

Grasping? That’s more your style- That and false accusations, of course. Just show how this was the original belief as you claim. As I recall, this was a late belief in the West but not in the East.

 

[Marybeloved]

Again, we are apparently not using grace in the same manner.

Secondly, the age of three is not conception, no one is conceived three years old.

Thirdly, I ask you what the point was. Does this mean that she was incapable of sinning at the age of three? Does it mean she did not sin by the age of three? What is the point?

The point is she was graced at that age already- remember the topic here is the Immaculate Conception- All about an infusion of Grace granted to our Lady from the beginning.

 

[Hesychios]

how typical! …All holy, spotless, sinless is as “perfect” as you can get. .

No creature is perfect.

No one.

 

[Marybeloved]

No creature is perfect.

No one.

So to you “perfect” is a synonym for divine?

 

[Hesychios]

So to you “perfect” is a synonym for divine?

Perfect is an attribute.

 

[Marybeloved]

Perfect is an attribute.

Ok. Since we are now discussing English- is it an attribute of the divine alone?

 

[Hesychios]

Ok. Since we are now discussing English- is it an attribute of the divine alone?

God is by nature perfect.

 

[Marybeloved]

God is by nature perfect.

Of course he is- but that does not answer whether “perfect” is only ever used to describe God, does it? A thing is perfect in so far is it conforms to its nature, or its intended purpose. You seem to use it in an absolute sense.