Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[GaryTaylor]

Well I believe all that need be said is said. It would be worth noting though what Jesus Christ said about religion. He leveled His harshest criticisms at the religious leaders of the day. He accused them of not knowing God and said they had used religion to bind people to a life of misery, fustration, and failure. He claimed they were blind and had blinded the “spiritual eyes” of their followers. {Matthew 15:13-14, 23:13-24}

Simple truth we pray in obediance to a Supernatural God, the God of this Universe, but don’t believe He is capible of the Supernatural. When in truth we live by His mercy moment to moment.

My point here isn’t to promote Fatima, its to promote our GOD which is the same God of the EO, CC and Protestant Churchs. Not to say I don’t think fatima was a spectaclur event, a window that God chose to open, so man may understand and regain their purpose and understanding of our situation today in an evil world.

Nonetheless, its not hard to look at the world as it is and see this simply cannot go-on as it is. Something has to give. And sadly I believe its us, especially here in the US who in years to come will be paying the price.

All our business is the same in Jesus Christ, the HS and God the Father.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

Amen, Gary. It’s amazing how some folks, when they don’t like the topic, criticize priorities instead of starting their own thread that they would find more relevent. How can something like Fatima or the miracles of Padre Pio be just thrown off to the wind? Aren’t supernatural occurrences relevent by virtue of the fact that RELIGION ITSELF IS SUPERNATURAL! IMO when we reduce religion to merely intellectual quandries and historical conciliar bickering, THAT is when we’ve become irrelevent in our discussions. Religion has theological, soteriological, and metaphysical dimensions that are worth discussing. As you said, Fatima has significance that is worth hashing over. IMO so do many other supernatural events, Orthodox AND Catholic. Religion has a faith element, not just an intellectual dimension…

Exactly, IMHO Fatima and Zeitoun on the Coptic Church are rare events which though considered “private” were witnessed by thousands publicly.

I never say, Oh well thats the EO so we can throw that out the window? What is that but small minded thinking? But I suppose it shows the difference in thinking between churchs.

Whats under that, oh don’t listen to that they will try to convert you? No-one is trying to convert you here, thats paranoia.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The point is that both Catholic and Orthodox Churches continually call the world to repentance by conversion through the mainstream process.

The idea that there is something in Fatima that isn’t already in the historic Catholic or Orthodox Churches is simply nonsense. That is not Mary, the Mother of the Church would want us to believe.

She supports the Church and guides us to her Son by means of the Church, as we all agree.

As for the troubles in the world, all is in God’s Hands. We can be taken by death at any time which means we must always be “plugged in” to God’s Grace at all times.

Fatima is a beautiful devotion. The idea that the Orthodox (or other Catholics) must accept it absolutely because they don’t already have what Fatima contains as communicating and participating members of their Churches is . . . nonsense.

Alex

 

[Harpazo]

“Papal church?” Andrew? Please at least do Catholics the courtesy of calling it “The Catholic Church.” No Catholics in here call your Church anything less than The Orthodox Church. Many call it “Holy Orthodoxy” a name I’m fine with. This seems highly discourteous to Catholics just like calling Catholics “papists.”

If you don’t like the thread topic that I started Andrew, don’t post on it?

Perception is a cruel lady.

I don’t demand that you call my Church the Catholic Church, when in fact its full title is “The Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of the East.” I said it with no malice intended whatsoever. Does your church not have a pope as its visible head on earth? Please tell me where the title is inaccurate. I have heard many of your fellow Catholics call it likewise so as to distinguish it from the Orthodox Sees. I mean no ill will at all.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Harpazo]

Really what more pressing matters do you have than World Peace and the salvation of Souls for God?

God Bless, Gary

Salvation of souls is the pressing matter, not worrying about another church’s miracles. There will never be world peace until Christ returns in glory. For the sake of argument, I do not spend time thinking about RC apparitions or miracles anymore than you do about Muslim ones. Look on YouTube for instance and see all of their miracles.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There’s a difference between calling the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of the East something denegrading. Catholics don’t worship the Pope. You know that. So calling us a papalist church implies as much. Our worship, faith, and theology isn’t directed to the papacy. It is a leadership mechanism just like you have your patriarchs and metropolitans that Catholics respect BUT don’t view you as “patriarchist Orthodoxers” and so forth. It’s not being politically correct, Andrew. You know that. They are the Catholic Church and you go by the Orthodox Church. Both are respectful and we can disagree but calling people “papastical” or “papists” and so forth is not meant with kind intent…

Perception is a cruel lady.

I don’t demand that you call my Church the Catholic Church, when in fact its full title is “The Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of the East.” I said it with no malice intended whatsoever. Does your church not have a pope as its visible head on earth? Please tell me where the title is inaccurate. I have heard many of your fellow Catholics call it likewise so as to distinguish it from the Orthodox Sees. I mean no ill will at all.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So you put Catholic miracles in the same realm of doubt as Muslim ones? Good grief?

Salvation of souls is the pressing matter, not worrying about another church’s miracles. There will never be world peace until Christ returns in glory. For the sake of argument, I do not spend time thinking about RC apparitions or miracles anymore than you do about Muslim ones. Look on YouTube for instance and see all of their miracles.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Exactly, IMHO Fatima and Zeitoun on the Coptic Church are rare events which though considered “private” were witnessed by thousands publicly.

I never say, Oh well thats the EO so we can throw that out the window? What is that but small minded thinking? But I suppose it shows the difference in thinking between churchs.

Whats under that, oh don’t listen to that they will try to convert you? No-one is trying to convert you here, thats paranoia.

God Bless, Gary

Gary, you mentioned Zeitoun several times now. I think you really have a good point about Zeitoun showing something comparable to Fatima - according to some estimates, up to 2 million people witnessed Theotokos’ apparitions, because the apparitions went on for a period of some 3 or 4 years. I wonder, did Holy Mary choose to appear to so many people at both Fatima and Zeitoun, because both apparitions are meant for the whole world, and she is coming in both cases to lead the whole world to peace at a perilous time in history?

The first series of Zeitoun apparitions took place in the late 1960s - early 1970s, at a time that was leading up to the war of 1973, where Egypt attacked Israel and suffered a major defeat. In addition, during those times, hatred against Christians ran high in Egypt, and Theotokos’ apparitions may have averted the onset of widespread attacks and genocide of Copts and other Christians by the Muslims.

Are you aware that Theotokos started appearing at 2 or 3 places in Egypt, including Zeitoun, in December 2009? I don’t know whether her second series of apparitions that began in December 2009 are still ongoing or not, but I did pay attention to the apparitions in late 2009/ early 2010, and the Egyptian newspapers reported them quite widely. I remember, I thought when I heard about Theotokos appearing again in Egypt, that something significant must be happening in Egypt. But in late 2009 - early 2010, there was peace in Egypt, I don’t remember any attacks against Christians right at that time. However, looking back now in April 2011, this is what I recognize: Egypt erupted again with anti-Christian violence, Copt churches were set on fire, peaceful churchgoers have been massacred. In addition, we had the abdication of power by Hosni Mubarak. If I remember correctly, some major anti-Christian violence happened around Christmas 2010, and the Egyptian “revolution” took place very recently during 2011. And this was all preceded by Theotokos starting to appear again in Zeitoun and elsewhere in Egypt, in December 2009.

Is this a coincidence? I don’t think so. And I’m afraid the ugly times in Egypt may not be over yet. Somehow it just seems to me that Theotokos came back to Zeitoun in December 2009, in order to strengthen her Copt children ahead of the new wave of persecutions awaiting them, and also to rekindle a spirit of fraternity, peace, and non-violence, in the hearts of well-meaning Muslim people who hold her in great respect. I think her apparitions on top of a Coptic Christian church, even if she utters not a single word, do have the effect of encouraging Muslim people to see those Copts as their brothers and to protect them, instead of attacking and killing them.

I also do agree with you that automatically dismissing Fatima, Zeitoun, or other Marian apparitions, just because they happened “in the wrong Church”, is silly, small-minded, and I would add, it’s SINFUL. It’s like a slap in the face of both Holy Mary and Jesus Christ, who prayed at the Last Supper that we should all be one, like Christ is one with the Father.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Gary, you mentioned Zeitoun several times now. I think you really have a good point about Zeitoun showing something comparable to Fatima - according to some estimates, up to 2 million people witnessed Theotokos’ apparitions, because the apparitions went on for a period of some 3 or 4 years. I wonder, did Holy Mary choose to appear to so many people at both Fatima and Zeitoun, because both apparitions are meant for the whole world, and she is coming in both cases to lead the whole world to peace at a perilous time in history?

The first series of Zeitoun apparitions took place in the late 1960s - early 1970s, at a time that was leading up to the war of 1973, where Egypt attacked Israel and suffered a major defeat. In addition, during those times, hatred against Christians ran high in Egypt, and Theotokos’ apparitions may have averted the onset of widespread attacks and genocide of Copts and other Christians by the Muslims.

Are you aware that Theotokos started appearing at 2 or 3 places in Egypt, including Zeitoun, in December 2009? I don’t know whether her second series of apparitions that began in December 2009 are still ongoing or not, but I did pay attention to the apparitions in late 2009/ early 2010, and the Egyptian newspapers reported them quite widely. I remember, I thought when I heard about Theotokos appearing again in Egypt, that something significant must be happening in Egypt. But in late 2009 - early 2010, there was peace in Egypt, I don’t remember any attacks against Christians right at that time. However, looking back now in April 2011, this is what I recognize: Egypt erupted again with anti-Christian violence, Copt churches were set on fire, peaceful churchgoers have been massacred. In addition, we had the abdication of power by Hosni Mubarak. If I remember correctly, some major anti-Christian violence happened around Christmas 2010, and the Egyptian “revolution” took place very recently during 2011. And this was all preceded by Theotokos starting to appear again in Zeitoun and elsewhere in Egypt, in December 2009.

Is this a coincidence? I don’t think so. And I’m afraid the ugly times in Egypt may not be over yet. Somehow it just seems to me that Theotokos came back to Zeitoun in December 2009, in order to strengthen her Copt children ahead of the new wave of persecutions awaiting them, and also to rekindle a spirit of fraternity, peace, and non-violence, in the hearts of well-meaning Muslim people who hold her in great respect. I think her apparitions on top of a Coptic Christian church, even if she utters not a single word, do have the effect of encouraging Muslim people to see those Copts as their brothers and to protect them, instead of attacking and killing them.

I also do agree with you that automatically dismissing Fatima, Zeitoun, or other Marian apparitions, just because they happened “in the wrong Church”, is silly, small-minded, and I would add, it’s SINFUL. It’s like a slap in the face of both Holy Mary and Jesus Christ, who prayed at the Last Supper that we should all be one, like Christ is one with the Father.

Catholics have been dismissing Orthodox miraculous events for centuries. This is about ecclesiology as much as anything else. “Outside the Church there is no salvation” - the Orthodox Catholic Church takes that at face value.

At Pochaiv, in the Orthodox monastery there, there is actually an iconic painting of a Roman Catholic woman receiving healing at the miraculous Icon there (and our Lady appeared over the monastery to protect it against the attack of the Turks in the 17th century as well - a dramatic apparition if there ever was one).

The point is that the woman, upon receiving her healing, felt that the Orthodox, not the Roman Catholic, Church was the true Church and promptly converted.

There is a sense that when one recognizes mystical events occurring outside what one believes to be the true Church, one is saying that the “other place” is “true” as well. And there can only be one true Church.

Traditionalist Roman Catholics still do believe the same way about the RC Church and I don’t believe they would allow that genuine miracles occur anywhere that is not part of the “Papalist Church.”

Alex the Papalist

 

[hazcompat]

Saint Bernadette soubirous, pray for us.
Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us.
Saint Mark of Ephesus, pray for us.

COME HOLY SPIRIT!

peace

 

[hazcompat]

Matthew Chapter5:21 'You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.

22 But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother “Fool” will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him “Traitor” will answer for it in hell fire.

23 So then, if you are bringing your offering to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,

24 leave your offering there before the altar, go and be reconciled with your brother first, and then come back and present your offering.

25 Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison.

26 In truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny

peace

 

[dcointin]

I am personally not against the possibility of miracles and saints in the Catholic Church, and indeed I think people such as St. Padre Pio demonstrate that the Holy Spirit is active there in deification (i.e. sanctification). This could not be the case if the sacraments of the Catholic Church were without grace. I am however suspicious of some of the visions such as Fatima which supposedly impart secrets which people spend endless amounts of time speculating about rather than focusing on acquiring the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Fatima is a beautiful devotion. The idea that the Orthodox (or other Catholics) must accept it absolutely because they don’t already have what Fatima contains as communicating and participating members of their Churches is . . . nonsense.

(Bolded emphasis mine)

It’s not a “must”, but it’s worthy.

Just how worthy is it? Let’s put aside the spiritual benefits, the benefits to the soul. Let’s just look at the temporal benefits.

Portugal was governed by a left-leaning atheist regime in 1917. Portugal could have easily gone the way Russia did, turning into a full-blown communist regime. But there was a massive response to Fatima from Portughese people - people repented, prayed the Rosary, etc. And Portugal never succumbed to communism, not in 1917, not in the 1930s when communists threw Spain into civil war, not in 1976-77 when the communists tried again to take over Portugal.

The Catholic Bishops also responded, and during the 1930s they consecrated Portugal to Mary’s Immaculate Heart. Sister Lucia knew that another bigger war than WW-I was threatened at Fatima, in case that people would not repent. Also, this other war was going to be preceded by a strange light in the sky, according to what Holy Mary said. Tragically, the strange light did happen in January 1938, and Sister Lucia knew when she saw the light, that this bigger war was coming. Most of Europe erupted in war beginning with 1938, but Portugal somehow escaped WW-II. Portugal NEVER PARTICIPATED IN WW-II. Is that worthy enough of an outcome? The atheist, or the prejudiced EO, may say that it was just coincidence that Portugal somehow escaped being drawn into WW-II. But Fr. Robert J. Fox, the Fatima scholar, suggests that it might have been the response of the Portuguese people (repentance, Rosary), combined with the Portuguese Bishops consecrating their country to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, the factors that earned the special grace of God for them that they were able to stay out of WW-II.

To anyone who so easily dismisses Fatima, because it adds nothing new theologically, I tell that they are missing the point. An apparition by Holy Mary might be intended simply to motivate people to new fervor in their religious life - a renewed effort for repentance, prayer, partaking in the Eucharist. And God rewards the renewed fervor with special graces, both for the soul and for the body. The graces in this physical dimension included peace in a physical sense (lack of war), and the Portuguese people received them.

Maybe, if other nations responded with the same fervor as the Portuguese, war may have been averted in their countries, too.

Also, there’s the famous miracle at Hiroshima, where a number of German Jesuit missionaries (I think there were 7 or 8 of them) escaped the nuclear blast with no lasting injuries, whereas everything was destroyed around their house which miraculously stayed intact. These missionaries said that they were living according to the message of Fatima, and praying the Rosary, every single day.

Fatima may not be a must, but it is definitely worthy.

In addition, it was told that the triumph of Mary’s Immaculate Heart will be the factor that will save Russia and bring peace to the world. I think the Russian EO and others who dismiss the clearly stated and ONLY solution that Heaven offered for them, are like Naaman was, before his servants talked some sense into him. Naaman felt insulted that Prophet Elijah told him, “Go, get immersed seven times in the Jordan, and you will be cleansed of your leprosy”. But Naaman was like, “Aren’t there rivers in Syria, even better ones than the Jordan?” This is foolishness, and the sin of pride. Naaman wanted to get cleansed his way. But God is not like Burger King, and you can’t have it your way. The Russian people will also be saved, but only one way - the way outlined by Holy Mary at Fatima. And the only way, the only hope for their salvation is the Catholic Church. God didn’t say that the Moscow Patriarch should consecrate Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart. It was the Pope’s job to do it. Also, there’s one specific devotion given for saving Russia - the 5 First Saturdays of Reparation to Mary’s Immaculate Heart. Tens of millions of Catholics participated, and continue to participate in that devotion. How many Russian EO participate in it? How many other EO (Greek, Romanian, etc)? Probably very few. They are like Naaman, and even worse than him.

 

[Harpazo]

There’s a difference between calling the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of the East something denegrading. Catholics don’t worship the Pope. You know that. So calling us a papalist church implies as much. Our worship, faith, and theology isn’t directed to the papacy. It is a leadership mechanism just like you have your patriarchs and metropolitans that Catholics respect BUT don’t view you as “patriarchist Orthodoxers” and so forth. It’s not being politically correct, Andrew. You know that. They are the Catholic Church and you go by the Orthodox Church. Both are respectful and we can disagree but calling people “papastical” or “papists” and so forth is not meant with kind intent…

I think you’re overreacting to my careless synonym. I said nothing of the sort of you or any other Catholic worshipping the pope. Please do not put words in my mouth. If you don’t believe me that I didn’t mean any mal intent, then I don’t know what to do for you.

I was equating Catholic miracles with Muslim ones. Please read what I wrote again. Thank you.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Catholics have been dismissing Orthodox miraculous events for centuries. This is about ecclesiology as much as anything else. “Outside the Church there is no salvation” - the Orthodox Catholic Church takes that at face value.

At Pochaiv, in the Orthodox monastery there, there is actually an iconic painting of a Roman Catholic woman receiving healing at the miraculous Icon there (and our Lady appeared over the monastery to protect it against the attack of the Turks in the 17th century as well - a dramatic apparition if there ever was one).

The point is that the woman, upon receiving her healing, felt that the Orthodox, not the Roman Catholic, Church was the true Church and promptly converted.

There is a sense that when one recognizes mystical events occurring outside what one believes to be the true Church, one is saying that the “other place” is “true” as well. And there can only be one true Church.

Traditionalist Roman Catholics still do believe the same way about the RC Church and I don’t believe they would allow that genuine miracles occur anywhere that is not part of the “Papalist Church.”

Alex the Papalist

On the other hand, it was Catholics who saved the Icon of Theotokos of Kazan for the Russian people. When the Icon went on public auction in NYC, and the Russian community failed to raise the funds to buy it, the Blue Army of Fatima raised the money, purchased the Icon, and gave it to the Pope JP-II, who in turn sent it back to the Russian people in August 2004. A new EO Cathedral was built in Kazan, and the Icon is there today. The Catholics saved this icon because they knew it is a Holy Icon, and many miracles have also been associated with this Icon. Thus, they couldn’t stand the possibility that a Holy Icon would be purchased by some secular collector, and would end up in a secular art gallery. Both the Blue Army of Fatima and Pope John Paul II venerated the Holy Icon of Kazan, but that doesn’t mean that they converted to Orthodoxy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A Satanist worships Satan. A Marxist clings to a type of devotion to the works of Karl Marx. A pessimist clings to a devotion to pissimistic thinking. A papist…well…

Catholics cling to the teachings of Christ with leadership coming from the Pope. Orthodox Christians cling to the teachings of Christ with leadership coming from Patriarchs, Metropolitans, bishops, etc. Yet you don’t see Catholics labeling Orthodox Christians as Patriarchists or Metropolitanarians? It’s always been a derogatory term “papist” or “papal church” Andrew. You know that…That’s all I’ll say on the matter. You’re a very, very bright chap and well aware of the connotations.

There’s nothing you can do for me. I don’t ask you to do anything…

I’m glad you admit below that you were were equating Catholic miracles with Muslim ones. I agree!

I think you’re overreacting to my careless synonym. I said nothing of the sort of you or any other Catholic worshipping the pope. Please do not put words in my mouth. If you don’t believe me that I didn’t mean any mal intent, then I don’t know what to do for you.

I was equating Catholic miracles with Muslim ones. Please read what I wrote again. Thank you.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great point.

On the other hand, it was Catholics who saved the Icon of Theotokos of Kazan for the Russian people. When the Icon went on public auction in NYC, and the Russian community failed to raise the funds to buy it, the Blue Army of Fatima raised the money, purchased the Icon, and gave it to the Pope JP-II, who in turn sent it back to the Russian people in August 2004. A new EO Cathedral was built in Kazan, and the Icon is there today. The Catholics saved this icon because they knew it is a Holy Icon, and many miracles have also been associated with this Icon. Thus, they couldn’t stand the possibility that a Holy Icon would be purchased by some secular collector, and would end up in a secular art gallery. Both the Blue Army of Fatima and Pope John Paul II venerated the Holy Icon of Kazan, but that doesn’t mean that they converted to Orthodoxy.

 

[hazcompat]

Matthew Chapter 12

36 So I tell you this, that for every unfounded word people utter they will answer on Judgement Day,

37 since it is by your words you will be justified, and by your words condemned.’

peace

 

[Alexander_Roman]

On the other hand, it was Catholics who saved the Icon of Theotokos of Kazan for the Russian people. When the Icon went on public auction in NYC, and the Russian community failed to raise the funds to buy it, the Blue Army of Fatima raised the money, purchased the Icon, and gave it to the Pope JP-II, who in turn sent it back to the Russian people in August 2004. A new EO Cathedral was built in Kazan, and the Icon is there today. The Catholics saved this icon because they knew it is a Holy Icon, and many miracles have also been associated with this Icon. Thus, they couldn’t stand the possibility that a Holy Icon would be purchased by some secular collector, and would end up in a secular art gallery. Both the Blue Army of Fatima and Pope John Paul II venerated the Holy Icon of Kazan, but that doesn’t mean that they converted to Orthodoxy.

You raise an excellent point - but in the case of Our Lady of Kazan, the West would be right in claiming it as an icon honoured by all Christians, even though it is of Eastern Church provenance.

East and West have much less of a problem venerating each other’s sacred images (such as the Orthodox icon of “Our Lady of the Scapular” in Horodyschenske in Ukraine). And Rome will at times receive an Orthodox saint into its calendar such as St Gregory Palamas (formerly pilloried by Western theologians as a “quietist” e.g. Fr. Holweck, Dicitionary of Saints). Sts Vladimir and Olha and Vladimir’s sons, Boris and Hlib are all in the Roman canon of the Saints, even though they were glorified by the Orthodox Church.

Alex

 

[GaryTaylor]

Salvation of souls is the pressing matter, not worrying about another church’s miracles. There will never be world peace until Christ returns in glory. For the sake of argument, I do not spend time thinking about RC apparitions or miracles anymore than you do about Muslim ones. Look on YouTube for instance and see all of their miracles.

In Christ,
Andrew

I shall pray for you and the contempt you have in your heart. To think anyone missed anything of what you typed here, would be your error and another indication of your thinking.

What did a Catholic beat you up for your lunch when you 5? My oh my.

God Bless, Gary