Eastern Orthodox Churches

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How and who appoint a Bishop?
The local synod has always done this.

From the beginning it was that way in the west as well.
What and who decide whether it’s a Autocephalous, a Metropolitan, a Patriarch and a Pope?
From antiquity, the earliest church communities budded off new communities, the older Apostolic ones more or less controlling the newer ones as missions. Over time new synods would be formed. Historically we know this was a process going on before any canons were composed, the first canons already appealed to a traditions to be maintained and made allowances for special circumstances.

This structure of older or stronger churches (Metropolitan Sees) leading the dioceses surrounding them was already recognized as the practice of the church by the very first Ecumenical Council in 325AD. In an attempt to standardize the structure of the church, some very significant decisions were agreed upon by the attendant bishops (these were men whom just a few short years before were often in hiding from the persecutions). A few interesting points they felt necessary to speak out on …
  • “It is by all means proper that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops in the province. But should this be difficult, either on account of urgent necessity or because of distance, three at least should meet together, and the suffrages of the absent bishops also being given and communicated in writing, then the ordination should take place. But in every province the ratification of what is done should be left to the Metropolitan.” (This is the first we read of Metropolitan bishops - although the Council is showing us the arrangement already existed in the underground church, and the oldest and grandest of these Metropolitans came to be known as patriarchs over time.) [Canon 4]
  • "Such as have been excommunicated by certain bishops shall not be restored by others … " (This reflecting the sovereign association of one bishop to another, the desire was to all mutually agree to respect the judgments of the fellow bishops in matters such as excommunication, and not undercut their brothers decisions) [Canon 5]
  • “Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail: that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome, likewise in Antioch and the other provinces. Let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood: that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the Great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail.” (Apparently there was a local challenge to the Metropolitan of Alexandria’s already traditional authority to oversee certain extensions of the church’s work in neighboring areas, the example of other Sees were cited to show the standing precedent for this arrangement in other areas. It was agreed by the assembled Council that Libya and Pentapolis were not ready or perhaps stable enough to govern themselves. -A second most interesting point the Fathers made was that within the Metropolitan Synod respect is due to the majority decision of the assembled bishops, not the solitary authority of the Metropolitan.) [Canon 6]
  • “Since custom and ancient tradition have prevailed that the Bishop of Aelia Capitolina should be honored, let him (saving the due dignity to the Metropolis [Caesarea Maritima]) have the next place of honor.” (Here is another appeal to tradition. The Jerusalem church, once destroyed, is growing again, and the Council Fathers want to recognize it in some special way without separating it from the control of it’s own Metropolitan at Ceasarea) [Canon 7]
  • “Neither bishop, nor presbyter, nor deacon shall be transferred from city to city. But they shall be sent back should they attempt to do so, to the Churches in which they were ordained.” [Canon 15]
Now interestingly, in the case of Antioch, the Metropolitan synod spread far and wide with sub-communities dependent upon it. But when the Metropolitan of Antioch claimed the right to install the bishops on Cyprus the local church protested that it had never been that way before, they could trace their church origins to Saint Paul’s appointments and they always had elected their own bishops from that time. In other words, Cyprus was a pre-existing synod in it’s own right.

Eventually the case came before an Ecumenical Council, just 100 years after Nicea in 431AD.
  • " … therefore the Rulers of the holy churches in Cyprus shall enjoy, without dispute or injury, according to the Canons of the blessed Fathers and ancient custom, the right of performing for themselves the ordination of their excellent Bishops. The same rule shall be observed in the other dioceses and provinces everywhere, so that none of the God beloved Bishops shall assume control of any province which has not heretofore, from the very beginning, been under his own hand or that of his predecessors. " [Canon 8]
This pretty much illustrates the structure of the Orthodox church.
 
Per the rules, Non-Catholic Religions.
I thought I’d followed the rules, viz.: “Eastern Christianity - learn the history, spirituality, and practices of Eastern & Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox” (source: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027). I also thought that it would insult our Orthodox brethren to place a thread about the Orthodox churches in the non-Catholic religions forum.
 
I thought I’d followed the rules, viz.: “Eastern Christianity - learn the history, spirituality, and practices of Eastern & Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox” (source: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027). I also thought that it would insult our Orthodox brethren to place a thread about the Orthodox churches in the non-Catholic religions forum.
Thank you for your kindness and sensitivity.

Yes, it is a constant insult, but not your fault. We are down here with the Mormons and the Muslims per CAF policy.
 
Thank you for your kindness and sensitivity.

Yes, it is a constant insult, but not your fault. We are down here with the Mormons and the Muslims per CAF policy.
Don’t forget the protestants, anglicians, and “Orthodox” groups like the Holy Synod of Milan.
 
Well, you should not be. I thought Orthodox Christians were part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
They are but they are not in communion with the Catholic Church, hence non-Catholic.

Anyways, this is a privately run forum and those who run the forum are free to set what rules they like. We are free to show our dislike by leaving, as some Orthodox did when this rule came into place.
 
The local synod has always done this.

From the beginning it was that way in the west as well.
From antiquity, the earliest church communities budded off new communities, the older Apostolic ones more or less controlling the newer ones as missions. Over time new synods would be formed. Historically we know this was a process going on before any canons were composed, the first canons already appealed to a traditions to be maintained and made allowances for special circumstances.

This structure of older or stronger churches (Metropolitan Sees) leading the dioceses surrounding them was already recognized as the practice of the church by the very first Ecumenical Council in 325AD. In an attempt to standardize the structure of the church, some very significant decisions were agreed upon by the attendant bishops (these were men whom just a few short years before were often in hiding from the persecutions). A few interesting points they felt necessary to speak out on …





This pretty much illustrates the structure of the Orthodox church.
Thanks, that helps.

As the communities spread and new patriarchs arise - is there any problem about standardization of doctrine, liturgy and practices (if any) among all the different patriarchs or even in the much smaller communities? If there is, how would they be detected by the other brother patriarchs? What about local culture which would differ from region to region, would this in any way influence churches practices over the years?

God bless.
 
Thanks, that helps.

As the communities spread and new patriarchs arise - is there any problem about standardization of doctrine, liturgy and practices (if any) among all the different patriarchs or even in the much smaller communities? If there is, how would they be detected by the other brother patriarchs? What about local culture which would differ from region to region, would this in any way influence churches practices over the years?

God bless.
There is a pretty high theological bar, Orthodox are a very conservative bunch by nature. This is in a large part the reason it will be so difficult to achieve a reconciliation between the orthodox and the Papal Catholics, Orthodox are just not liberal enough to accept some of the theological development of the west.
 
Thanks, that helps.

As the communities spread and new patriarchs arise - is there any problem about standardization of doctrine, liturgy and practices (if any) among all the different patriarchs or even in the much smaller communities? If there is, how would they be detected by the other brother patriarchs? What about local culture which would differ from region to region, would this in any way influence churches practices over the years?

God bless.
Local culture affects church practices all around the world and has from the very beginning. It is a healthy part of church life.

In Christ
Joe
 
Hello Brother David,

I hope you are well, sincerely.
They are but they are not in communion with the Catholic Church, hence non-Catholic.

Anyways, this is a privately run forum and those who run the forum are free to set what rules they like. We are free to show our dislike by leaving, as some Orthodox did when this rule came into place.
You are misleading by claiming some Orthodox left over the rule change, I would ask you to name them. I think you know full well that there were a lot of Orthodox (possibly ten) who were banned in about a two week period. It must be the biggest open secret around here, they were pushed out, they did not “leave because they disliked the rules”. For a long time Mickey and I were all that was left.

But of course you are right, this is a private forum and the owners can set the rules, I fully understand that and abide, even though I consider it an insult. But even discussing the bannings publicly was grounds to ban someone and have the posts deleted (which may be why you never knew about it), so if that is still the rule here I should be banned now too.

By the way, I remember when you were insulted when the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox were ‘put into the ghetto here’. You seem to have grown more comfortable with the arrangement since the Orthodox were sent to the basement, or does it still bother you that Eastern Catholics were put into a special section?

Love in Christ, and prayers
Mike
 
I thought I’d followed the rules, viz.: “Eastern Christianity - learn the history, spirituality, and practices of Eastern & Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox” (source: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027). I also thought that it would insult our Orthodox brethren to place a thread about the Orthodox churches in the non-Catholic religions forum.
:confused::confused::confused:

The “rule” that you quoted appears on the IFI sticky for the non-Catholic religions forum.
It does not appear, however, on the “Eastern Catholicism” forum. What appears there is the following:
EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
Statement of Purpose
This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).
This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church’s Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.
Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success.
 
Hello Brother David,

I hope you are well, sincerely.
I am doing better. Am on a maintenace chemotherapy right now. Most days are good though every now and then the side effects get to me. Thank you for your hope (and I hope your prayers).

We may disagree at times but know that I do not consider you an “enemy” in anyway.
You are misleading by claiming some Orthodox left over the rule change, I would ask you to name them. I think you know full well that there were a lot of Orthodox (possibly ten) who were banned in about a two week period. It must be the biggest open secret around here, they were pushed out, they did not “leave because they disliked the rules”. For a long time Mickey and I were all that was left.
Yes, I will agree that they may have been “pushed out” as you say but the rule change was precipitated by what was going on at the time. One of the biggest that annoyed me was those very Orthodox posters trying to speak for all Eastern Christianity including Eastern Catholics and trying to speak as authorities.

It is my understanding that Fr Ambrose left on his own, now you may argue that he did so rather than being forced out but it was his choice.

I welcomed the change as though we do share somethings there are others that we do not.

We are in communion with Rome and this is a Catholic forum. Orthodox forums out there have no place for Catholics and they are seldom even tolerated. Byzcath forum is a great mix but this is, first and foremost, a Latin Catholic website. We Byzantines are only allowed to post in one subforum our topics.

No forum is perfect. I stopped participating in one Eastern Christian forum due to harassment I recieved for choosing to enter a Latin order, I was even forced to request that certain threads that I had started be deleted because of it.

Its not great but it is what we have and complaining about it will not make it any better, all it can do is worsen it.

You know I have never agreed with the “Orthodox in communion with Rome” title so you should know that I do not buy into the reverse title either. Orthodox are not Catholic any more than High Church Anglicans are, though you do have valid sacraments.

I think I will leave it at that.
 
"Reuben J:
As the communities spread and new patriarchs arise - is there any problem about standardization of doctrine, liturgy and practices (if any) among all the different patriarchs or even in the much smaller communities? If there is, how would they be detected by the other brother patriarchs? What about local culture which would differ from region to region, would this in any way influence churches practices over the years?

God bless.
There is a pretty high theological bar, Orthodox are a very conservative bunch by nature. This is in a large part the reason it will be so difficult to achieve a reconciliation between the orthodox and the Papal Catholics, Orthodox are just not liberal enough to accept some of the theological development of the west.
I take it then that all the different patriachs of the Orthodox Churches all over the world have the same standard doctrine, liturgy and practices. Praise God.
 
There is a pretty high theological bar, **Orthodox are a very conservative bunch **by nature. This is in a large part the reason it will be so difficult to achieve a reconciliation between the orthodox and the Papal Catholics, Orthodox are just not liberal enough to accept some of the theological development of the west.
BTW, how does Orthodox address revolutionary modern issue that practically change the face of our society today, but issue that was non-existence during the time of apostles? A good example is the pills - artificial birth control.
 
We may disagree at times but know that I do not consider you an “enemy” in anyway.
Thank you my friend.
It is my understanding that Fr Ambrose left on his own, now you may argue that he did so rather than being forced out but it was his choice.
Your understanding is a misunderstanding. He too was banned.

I will also leave it at that.

God bless you David
 
I take it then that all the different patriachs of the Orthodox Churches all over the world have the same standard doctrine, liturgy and practices. Praise God.
Same standard doctrine.

Liturgy and Practice don’t have to be the same, they just can’t violate doctrine in any way.
 
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