Eastern Orthodox Council of Jerusalem 1672

[Alexius]

Do you have any quotes from Augustine where he says these objectionable things? I would like to see them. From what I have read I see him focus on the loss of sanctifying grace.

This is very interesting because one Catholic article quotes Lossky as saying this:“The Eastern tradition knows nothing of ‘pure nature’ to which grace is added as a supernatural gift. For it, there is no natural or ‘normal’ state, since grace is implied in the act of creation itself.”
I dont have the book so I cant check the context, but from this quote alone Lossky is saying the idea of losing sanctifying grace is foreign to Orthodox though.

This may or may not be teaching loss of sanctifying grace because of the great emphasis on the physical consequences he lists above.

I would agree with this quote.

It doesnt really talk about loss of sanctifying grace…

I would agree with this quote.

What does he mean by “on him”? Does that mean this favor was only external?
(cont)

First, I’ll have to check about Augustine.

Some of the quotes I posted were meant to help connect the message…

I read your quote about Vladimir Lossky, but I don’t see that as denying a loss of Grace.

You are right, though. The Orthodox focus is on physical death. Spiritual death is absent though.

The emphasis is often on death and life, not nature and grace. Death is both spiritual and physical, as the body and soul share in man’s nature. When the Fathers speak of God and man being separated, they mean that man’s soul has lost God dwelling in it and because God is His Grace, man has lost God’s Grace in his soul. Naturally, that is what God meant when He cursed Adam and spoke of death on that very day. He lived in his body for 930 years, but his soul had lost God. God’s Grace is not absent from man, because His Grace worked through the Holy Prophets and Kings of the Old Testament, but He operated on the outside of them only…

Also, Orthodox usually don’t distinguish different types of Grace. Grace is grace.

As for nature being corrupted, I think there is a difference between the human nature and the Image of God. Man lost the likeness to God, but the image is still preserved. Most Protestants, with the exception of Freewill Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists and a few others, believe that man has lost the Image of God and there is no freedom of his will.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The emphasis is often on death and life, not nature and grace. Death is both spiritual and physical, as the body and soul share in man’s nature. When the Fathers speak of God and man being separated, they mean that man’s soul has lost God dwelling in it and because God is His Grace, man has lost God’s Grace in his soul. Naturally, that is what God meant when He cursed Adam and spoke of death on that very day. He lived in his body for 930 years, but his soul had lost God.

I would agree with this and consider this the heart of the issue.

God’s Grace is not absent from man, because His Grace worked through the Holy Prophets and Kings of the Old Testament, but He operated on the outside of them only…

What do you mean operated on the outside only? Anytime a person is saved in history they receive the grace of God back into their soul such that God operates both on the “inside” and “outside”. Salvation is essentially having the grace restored to your soul which you were born lacking.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The fact is Jerusalem explicitly mentioned the prayers of those on earth including the “Unbloody Sacrifice” (Divine Liturgy) being applied to the souls in “purgatory”.

The concept of purgatory goes back to the OT times (eg 2 Maccabees 12:46) and the teachings of praying and alms for the departed souls is found in the Early Church Fathers.

The idea of prayers for the dead go back to OT times.

The systemization of it into a place is a later innovation.

Again the council: NOTE THE LAST SENTENCE:

And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades [NOTE: NOT PURGATORY, AS TRENT CLAIMS], and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.

I’m not dodging any question. It is just we don’t know the details and don’t pretend we do, which dogmatizing a place such as purgatory would entail.

We Orthodox today believe in prayers for the dead, etc. without believing in purgatory. Such is life.

 

[Alexius]

I would agree with this and consider this the heart of the issue.

What do you mean operated on the outside only? Anytime a person is saved in history they receive the grace of God back into their soul such that God operates both on the “inside” and “outside”. Salvation is essentially having the grace restored to your soul which you were born lacking.

It means that man could cooperate with God’s Grace, but he could not have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in his soul. In the OT, a person could do God’s will, but at death, their soul would await the Messiah in Hades.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

It means that man could cooperate with God’s Grace, but he could not have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in his soul. In the OT, a person could do God’s will, but at death, their soul would await the Messiah in Hades.

How come the couldnt have sanctifying grace restored?
I dont see why sanctifying grace would be in conflict with the OT Saints waiting in Abraham’s Bosom (Lk 16:22).

 

[Alexius]

How come the couldnt have sanctifying grace restored?
I dont see why sanctifying grace would be in conflict with the OT Saints waiting in Abraham’s Bosom (Lk 16:22).

Because only Christ could restore God to man. Man’s nature was corrupted by Adam so that he lost God’s dwelling in His soul. He could not restore union with God by himself, so God became incarnate in Christ and restored us through His life, death, and resurrection.