Eastern Orthodox Criticism of Catholicism?

[Nicea325]

And the mandatory celibacy in the presbyterate. By and large, ECs are not permitted to have married priests. From what I understand, it is more common in their homelands, but it’s hard to do so in places like the US, for example.

In Christ,
Andrew

Celibacy is merely a discipline which can be changed. However, the Eastern rites have married priests,but they cannot be bishops.

 

[JonNC]

1. Purgatory

Hey Rawb,
Hopefuly not derailing here, do the Orthodox accept the necessity of purgation? If so, do you see this happening in an intermediate state/place, as Catholics do, or in some other way?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Rawb]

So do the Orthodox also have confession to a Priest like Catholics, but you confess all sin?

I have to say I find mortal and venial sins confusing. I believe there are sins that are mortal, I would just find it hard to make that judgement myself, I would rather just have regular confession and confess all, but that is OK to do for Catholics also.

Orthodox Confession is a little different. Yes we Confess every sin we can think of. We don’t have Confessionals (I sometimes miss them!) you confess in the open up at the front of the temple. You face an icon of Christ (some parishes also have the Gospel book there as well. That’s preferred but many parishes don’t have the room) and you confess with the priest standing behind you and listening. We don’t list our sins by number.

Then the priest offers advice and puts his stole over your head and proclaims the absolution. Giving a penance isn’t required.

 

[Cider]

All the arugments about IC and the Filioque are pointless if the Church can’t lead me to salvation. If it affirms me in my mortal sin instead of calling me out of it and offering absolution from it.

That makes no sense to me. How can the teachings on faith be pointless in any religion? And if the hierarchy are wrong on the teachings of faith how can their salvation be real?

 

[Rawb]

Hey Rawb,
Hopefuly not derailing here, do the Orthodox accept the necessity of purgation? If so, do you see this happening in an intermediate state/place, as Catholics do, or in some other way?

Thanks,
Jon

Purgation should be the primary goal of our Earthly life. Does it happen after death? Possibly, but we wouldn’t stake our flag on it.

Here is a PDF link to the Panikhida, the Prayer Service we do on Memorials at certain times after the death of an Orthodox. You’ll note it prays for their entrance into Heaven, though we wouldn’t necessarily say they’re not in Heaven already (remember God can apply prayers retro-actively). In the same manner we pray for the forgiveness of their sins. Is it possible we’re praying for their forgiveness after death? Maybe, but it’s just as possible we’re praying for them at the moment of their death. Time doesn’t pass the same when we are in a Liturgy. We enter Heaven and are thus outside of time.

 

[jam070406]

I’d like the passage please, so I can be more clear,

Sorry, it’s 1 John 5:16-17.

 

[Rawb]

Sorry, it’s 1 John 5:16-17.

Here’s the verse so everyone can see:

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Actually I think this verse has nothing to do with mortal/venial distinctions, but is talking about the Unforgivable Sin. You’ll note the saint said “There is a sin that leads to death”. I double checked a few different versions to make sure and almost all of them include that ‘a’ (including the KJV and the Douey Rheims, and several more recent translations). It’s speaking of a singular sin.

I think it is a warning about the danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, (Math. 12:31 talks about how there is no forgiveness for Blaspheming the Spirit)

 

[jam070406]

That makes no sense to me. How can the teachings on faith be pointless in any religion? And if the hierarchy are wrong on the teachings of faith how can their salvation be real?

I didn’t say teachings on faith were pointless. If a church claims a mortal sin is not a mortal sin then what does it matter what their opinion of the IC is?

 

[jam070406]

Here’s the verse so everyone can see:

Actually I think this verse has nothing to do with mortal/venial distinctions, but is talking about the Unforgivable Sin. You’ll note the saint said “There is a sin that leads to death”. I double checked a few different versions to make sure and almost all of them include that ‘a’ (including the KJV and the Douey Rheims, and several more recent translations). It’s speaking of a singular sin.

I think it is a warning about the danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, (Math. 12:31 talks about how there is no forgiveness for Blaspheming the Spirit)

He says there is sin that does not lead to death. The Catholic Church has named this venial.

 

[runningdude]

I get what you are saying but some sins are more grave then others, which require sacramental reconciliation. Even St. James says there are sins that kill. I don’t see why there would be an issue with the Church warning the Faithful that certain sin contrary to Divine law is worthy of damnation. With all do respect the Orthodox view seems more dangerous and wishy washy. It would seem there is a big door there to justify grave sinful behavior.

I think this is the Latin spirituality and culture talking . In the Catholic Church we grew up with all these rules, and without these rules, we see “Ah I can do whatever I want”.

But the Orthodox see it differently. They grew up without the rules, but yet see the nature of certain actions as harming their relationship with God anyway. Thus they still can’t do whatever, but the “rules” are more subjective.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Orthodox Confession is a little different. Yes we Confess every sin we can think of. We don’t have Confessionals (I sometimes miss them!) you confess in the open up at the front of the temple. You face an icon of Christ (some parishes also have the Gospel book there as well. That’s preferred but many parishes don’t have the room) and you confess with the priest standing behind you and listening. We don’t list our sins by number.

Then the priest offers advice and puts his stole over your head and proclaims the absolution. Giving a penance isn’t required.

It sounds good to me. but i would like to see you guys doing penance also.

 

[Rawb]

He says there is sin that does not lead to death. The Catholic Church has named this venial.

So what’s the *one *mortal sin in existence?

From our understanding he’s saying that other sins do not result in death, that is, are not guaranteed to end in condemnation. One sin is. One sin is unforgivable, and thus ends in death automatically. For the rest there is forgiveness and God will give them life.

Runningboy’s post is very good on a central difference here.

 

[Harpazo]

It sounds good to me. but i would like to see you guys doing penance also.

Well, you’re not our spiritual father. But seriously, the entire life of a Christian is supposed to be an ascetical life (to varying degrees depending on circumstances, etc.). A priest may prescribe a confessing Orthodox penance, but it is not required. Generally, there is (supposed to be) a penitential attitude in the everyday life of an Orthodox. Constantly praying the Jesus Prayer, attending services, fasting, helping our neighbor, following the commandments. It’s really the whole thing.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Rawb]

It sounds good to me. but i would like to see you guys doing penance also.

We fast from all meat (including fish), oil, dairy products, eggs, and alcohol for forty days before Pascha and Nativity, and two weeks in the middle of summer before the Feast of Ss Peter and Paul. Every Wednesday and Friday we fast or abstain, at the least from meat. Perhaps not everyone can do all of this, in which case they work out what they can do with their Spiritual Father.

The priest *can *give you penance, he just sometimes doesn’t. Penance isn’t an “I’m sorry for my sins” in Orthodoxy, it’s a practice to help you resist sins in the future. As my priest said “I condemned You to death upon a Cross, Lord, so I’ll skip some meat to show You I’m sorry?” It’s a different interpretation of the purpose of penance, so it doesn’t really make sense to assign a penance unless there’s something that can be undone or something for which you need to prepare against in the future for which a penance would help.

 

[jam070406]

So what’s the *one *mortal sin in existence?

From our understanding he’s saying that other sins do not result in death, that is, are not guaranteed to end in condemnation. One sin is. One sin is unforgivable, and thus ends in death automatically. For the rest there is forgiveness and God will give them life.

Runningboy’s post is very good on a central difference here.

I see your point.

What you are saying is you believe that there are no sins that you can commit that are grave enough that will automatically send a person to hell? Even if they did not seek forgiveness.

 

[Rawb]

I see your point.

What you are saying is you believe that there are no sins that you can commit that are grave enough that will automatically send a person to hell? Even if they did not seek forgiveness.

Hmmmm…almost. I’m not sure about the bold part…I’m almost positive that’s not right. Everyone must request the forgiveness of Christ in order to avoid hell. There are singular sins which an individual could commit that would send them to hell - because for them it’s a serious enough offense that God knows they are not truly seeking Him. There is not a pre-set list of sins that apply to everyone that if one commits they go to hell. In the end as with all things. we rely on the mercy of God.

Of course for all of this I’m speaking of a baptized Christian. I cannot speak to nonChrisitans ‘status’.

Perhaps it would be better to say "all sins are worthy enough to send us to hell. It is only through Christ’s mercy that we are saved, and His mercy isn’t conditioned upon a pre-set list of what counts as “mortal”.

 

[gregdaly]

Interesting thread. I look forward to reading more.

In Christ,
Greg

 

[dvdjs]

. There is not a pre-set list of sins that apply to everyone that if one commits they go to hell.

Fine, but please do not pretend that there is such a list in the Catholic church; there is not.

In the end as with all things. we rely on the mercy of God.

As do all.

Perhaps it would be better to say “all sins are worthy enough to send us to hell. It is only through Christ’s mercy that we are saved,…”

. Yes. This is not a point of distinction between Catholic and Orthodox. .

… His mercy isn’t conditioned upon a pre-set list of what counts as "mortal

Yes. But this is not a point of distinction between Catholic and Orthodox and cannot be considered to be a legitimate EO criticism of Catholicism.

 

[dvdjs]

We don’t believe God extracts a punishment or suffering after we die to atone for unconfessed sins. We pray for the dead because it is a good and righteous thing to do. We don’t make any definitions about how those prayers are used by God. The current catechism only hints at the “punishment” effect, but traditionally your church has taught there is suffering involved.

Transubstantiation is not about “how God brings this about”; where on earth do you get these mistaken ideas? The philosophical terms are merely used to delineate the difference between what we see and what our faith teaches us. What is dogmatized is the real presence. By the way, in over reacting against the Catholic theology, there are no shortage of Orthodox apologists who are, in fact defining things, and are speaking more along the lines of consubstantiation.

 

[panevino]

…

The priest *can *give you penance, he just sometimes doesn’t. Penance isn’t an “I’m sorry for my sins” in Orthodoxy, it’s a practice to help you resist sins in the future.

its my understanding that this is also an intention of Catholic penance.
Saw this too…Ps 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

As my priest said “I condemned You to death upon a Cross, Lord, so I’ll skip some meat to show You I’m sorry?” It’s a different interpretation of the purpose of penance, so it doesn’t really make sense to assign a penance unless there’s something that can be undone or something for which you need to prepare against in the future for which a penance would help.

being given prayers to say and to read the bible is the penance that is intended to strengthen faith in Catholic confession Ie resist sins in future… done with a contrite heart