Eastern Orthodox Criticism of Catholicism?

[h2oplyer7]

Then answer my question Mickey. Do you accept modern science? Show me how reasonable your faith is? Perhaps you consider our Fundamentalist Christian brethren more “Orthodox” than the Catholic Church. No, you will not answer me because you already know where that will lead you. Orthodox do not believe in death before the fall? Is that correct? Sadly, all the polemics of the Orthodoxy on the Catholic Church’s view of original sin are turned upside down by modern science, the child of west. Sadly, the modern world has left behind your Orthodox metaphysics.

I may not know Orthodoxy, but it is obvious you never learned Catholicism. Orthodox apologists have for centuries accused everyone as being heterodox who do not bow to the Byzantine Patriarchs. You are right that only a miracle will bring the Churches together, perhaps you should pray for Orthodoxy to come together first, for when one has closed their mind to the world outside, to the reality of the world, nothing short of a miracle can bring them to the truth.

What I do not understand, and why I was so turned off by Orthodoxy, is for all your true faith your Church is perhaps the most arrogant of faiths since you speak down to everyone as incapable of “attaining the mountain,” or “having proper theosis,” even though Catholics like Mother Teresa should prove to you otherwise. Not all Orthodox are like this, but definitely the monks of Athos, and its hierarchy, and the brilliant theologians of Russia. Yet, with as gifted and talented as they are, what have they succeeded in accomplishing for the world in the name of Christ? What have they done, that the Catholic Church has not? Moreover, what have they done to match the Catholic Church?

I care little for polemics, theology, or apologetics if there are no results. You are neck deep in them. What is your Church doing for the world? How are you bringing Christ to the world? No, Orthodoxy has sealed itself behind the impenetrable wall of mysticism.

I am obviously much younger than you. You obviously know much more about theological matters than I, but what have you done in the name of unification of the whole human race in the name of Christ? It seems to me that if you would focus on what we have in common you could see the reality of the world as it is. The world HATES the Catholic Church. The world dismisses Orthodoxy. The Soviet Union trembled at the actions of Pope John Paul II. Prime Minister Putin sighs at the words of Patriarch Kirill.

Now you tell me, who is the universal head of the Church?

There is nothing more frustrating to me than those who set themselves up as Saints for knowing more about the Church, without practicing its precepts. You come here to divide and argue, but you argue for the wrong side.

 

[Mickey]

Do you accept modern science?

That’s a rather broad and general question.

Show me how reasonable your faith is?

I am not compelled to show anything to you.

Perhaps you consider our Fundamentalist Christian brethren more “Orthodox” than the Catholic Church.

I did not say that. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Sadly, the modern world has left behind your Orthodox metaphysics.

Sticks and stones will break my bones but insults will not hurt me.

I may not know Orthodoxy, but it is obvious you never learned Catholicism.

Well…uh…I think I learned it rather well.

perhaps you should pray for Orthodoxy to come together first, for when one has closed their mind to the world outside, to the reality of the world, nothing short of a miracle can bring them to the truth.

Ooh…now your true anger has manifested itself with your increasingly uncharitable statements. I am not going to exchange insults with you. How very sad.

What I do not understand, and why I was so turned off by Orthodoxy, is for all your true faith your Church is perhaps the most arrogant of faiths

It seems that the only arrogance here…is the degradation of your demeanor in this discussion.

since you speak down to everyone as incapable of “attaining the mountain,” or “having proper theosis,”

I have done no such thing. You continue to uncharitably put words in my mouth.

Yet, with as gifted and talented as they are, what have they succeeded in accomplishing for the world in the name of Christ?

Maintaining the fullness of truth.

I care little for polemics

You could have fooled me.

I am obviously much younger than you.

I do not know that.

You obviously know much more about theological matters than I

I do not know you…so I could not answer that. However, I do know that I am a terrible sinner.

It seems to me that if you would focus on what we have in common you could see the reality of the world as it is.

I rejoice in areas of shared theology.

Now you tell me, who is the universal head of the Church?

Jesus Christ.

you argue for the wrong side.

I pray that you will stop your insults.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I care little for polemics, theology, or apologetics if there are no results. You are neck deep in them. What is your Church doing for the world? How are you bringing Christ to the world? No, Orthodoxy has sealed itself behind the impenetrable wall of mysticism.

Orthodoxy is not bringing Christ into the world? Ridiculous. Where do you get such an idea? Because Holy Orthodoxy teaches ideas which clash with modern science (caveat: only when you take them literally), you decide that she is inadequate? Why not just deny the metaphysical and, as a consequence, God then, if you are so attached to the idea that the truth lies in reason and science?

I am obviously much younger than you. You obviously know much more about theological matters than I, but what have you done in the name of unification of the whole human race in the name of Christ? It seems to me that if you would focus on what we have in common you could see the reality of the world as it is. The world HATES the Catholic Church. The world dismisses Orthodoxy. The Soviet Union trembled at the actions of Pope John Paul II. Prime Minister Putin sighs at the words of Patriarch Kirill.

Yes, let’s condemn those foolish and inactive Orthodox of the 20th Century who were too busy being martyred by the Communists and Muslims to do good for the world. Fortunately, we now live in the 21st Century, and Holy Orthodoxy is finally gaining the political stability to be able to have an effect on this world, yet even so we must always remember that the ultimate goal of Christianity is the salvation of souls, not merely making a better life in the here and now. If you truly think that Christianity exists primarily to better the lives of those in this world rather than to provide for their salvation, then you trample on the memory of the many martyrs who died defending their belief not in this world but in the glories of the life of the age to come.

Now you tell me, who is the universal head of the Church?

Christ.

There is nothing more frustrating to me than those who set themselves up as Saints for knowing more about the Church, without practicing its precepts. You come here to divide and argue, but you argue for the wrong side.

And what precepts does Mickey not practice? Are you a suitable judge? As the Desert Fathers said of fasting: keep your eyes on your own plate.

 

[h2oplyer7]

None of those were insults, but, hey, great answers. You are like the kid who when they realize they are without a valid argument starts to cry. It doesn’t work with me. I have not insulted you in any way. I have not demeaned you or your Church, though I point out the obvious glaring problems with the reality your Church faces.

You are the one on a Catholic website telling people how far the Catholic Church has strayed from the truth. My MAIN, and really ONLY objection to Orthodoxy is their position that they alone have a corner on the God market. The Catholic Church accepts truth where it is. This is why we accept your sacraments as valid, we accept your Church as being apart of the One, Holy and Universal Church.

The Catholic Church is the Church that seeks union. Your Church sits on the sideline.

Enjoy CATHOLIC.COM.

 

[h2oplyer7]

Faith AND Reason!

God gave us both for a reason.

 

[Mickey]

You are like the kid…

I have not been called a kid in long time. Thank you.

Your Church sits on the sideline.

May God forgive you.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Faith AND Reason!

God gave us both for a reason.

Then tell me, other than using a metaphoric interpretation, how are you to rectify the differences between the Genesis account and the order in which things were actually formed according to scientific reasoning? If the only answer you can think of is to interpret the Genesis account metaphorically in order to place it in a greater metaphysical context, then why is that same approach not applicable to statements like, “there was no death before the fall”? Why must faith and reason collide, in your mind, when faith obviously ventures into territory which is beyond reason.

 

[JonNC]

I do not adhere to odd philsophical terms such as “transubstantiation” (RC) or “consubstantiation” (Lutheran)—which attempt to explain a glorious Mystery.

Without attempting to derail.
Actually, Mickey, Lutherans reject the term and notion of consubstantiation for the same reason that you state above.

Carry on,
Jon

 

[Mickey]

Without attempting to derail.
Actually, Mickey, Lutherans reject the term and notion of consubstantiation for the same reason that you state above.

Carry on,
Jon

Hmmm? I did not know that. When I was in the RCC, I remember being taught that Lutherans believed in a concept termed “consubstantiation.” I learned something new today. Thank you Jon.

 

[h2oplyer7]

Listen, I am not saying that, but I ask you, do you really think the ancient writers were writing from a scientific point of view. Of course not, and I do not regard it as metaphor, I take it literally. I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, I believe there were two original parents, Adam and Eve, I believe there was a fall, but I do not believe that we are to take Genesis literalistically. That would be absurd. That is not what the ancient writers intended.

I will admit that my background is in science, so that is primarily what I know and the perspective I come from. That being said, faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Was Christ resurrected…yes! Is resurrection a scientifically provable fact…no. But it is reasonable for us to come to the conclusion that it happened…yes. Reason is not just science, but it is our human ability to use our senses to ascertain the reality around us.

As I have mentioned before, I hold the Orthodox Church in very high regard. I do not hold in high regard their disregard for the human faculties. Unfortunately, the Orthodox Church is like a body builder who for the last thousand years has only worked out their right arm. It is a very strong right arm, and in some ways it is stronger than the right arm of the Catholic Church. But as soon as Orthodox theologians use their polemics to probe western philosophy or science, they are sadly outmatched. The arrogance lies in the recent Orthodox practice of simply disregarding anything they can’t understand, or anything they didn’t come up with first.

I was brought up outside the Church. I had an interest in Orthodoxy before I had an interest in Catholicism. I feel that helped me see things quite clearly. If it didn’t, it at least let me see things quite clearly from the point of view of a man motivated by seeking reasonable truth, whether in morality or theology. From a scientific point of view, arguing against materialism, the best Orthodox answers were childlike when compared to honed Catholic polemics on the subject. From a philosophical point of view, arguing for the existence of God through reason, the Orthodox answers were again crude and poorly formed. At the time I was not pitting the two Churches against each other, only against the greater enemy of Godlessness. Yet, in that regard, the Catholic Church won me over. Now, if you were attracted to the Orthodox Church because you already believed in God, and the Orthodox Church had a rich and full spirituality, then I completely understand your preference for the east. However, that was not me, and shame on the east for condemning people like me who seek God with their minds and hearts, and not just their hearts.

 

[Mickey]

As I have mentioned before, I hold the Orthodox Church in very high regard.

Really?

Unfortunately, the Orthodox Church is like a body builder who for the last thousand years has only worked out their right arm.

Yeah, that sure sounds like high regard.

 

[h2oplyer7]

Mickey, I hold the mystics of the Eastern Church in high regard. Your church has an amazing spirituality. You are a very antagonistic personality.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, I hold the mystics of the Eastern Church in high regard. Your church has an amazing spirituality.

You are a very antagonistic personality.

You say that with one breath…and then insult Holy Orthodoxy with the next.
You are the one being antagonistic.

 

[h2oplyer7]

I get it, so we can say the Catholic Church is in error, but when a Catholic fights back, well, now I am the one that is wrong. I have attempted to be civil and discuss the issues you brought up. In response you blow me off and feign insult. You have not answered one of my questions, while I have done my best to answer yours. I explained why I love Holy Orthodoxy, and I really do, but I also recognize its defects. Am I not allowed to do that?

 

[Mickey]

I get it, so we can say the Catholic Church is in error, but when a Catholic fights back, well, now I am the one that is wrong.

No, you don’t get it. If there is an Orthodox teaching that you do not agree with (ie:Orthodox understanding of original sin) you state that you do not agree and the reasons. It is customary to reference Sacred Scripture and/or Holy Tradition—and perhaps various theological opinions from those within your Church. It is not customary nor polite to say things such as:
Unfortunately, the Orthodox Church is like a body builder who for the last thousand years has only worked out their right arm.

or
Your Church sits on the sideline.
or
*your Church is perhaps the most arrogant of faiths

or

you argue for the wrong side.

or

The eastern purely mystical view of revelation limits the Eastern Church.

or

The fact is that Orthodoxy needs Catholicism more than Catholicism needs Orthodoxy.

These statements are blatant insults.
*

I have attempted to be civil and discuss the issues you brought up.

I’m sorry…but you have not demonstrated that. :nope:

 

[h2oplyer7]

Very well, I will admit that I was a bit clumsy with the hammer in those regards. Still, my positions remain valid points, and you have born them to be true by your own actions. You refuse to answer my questions, attempting to keep me in a lower position to you. You imply that you can easily supply the answers, but I am not worth answering. That srikes me as arrogant.

Regarding your Church, they insult the Papacy every chance they get, including when Patriarch Kirill refuses to go to Rome, or greet the Pope in Russia as the Pope has offered. The monks at Athos continue to call the Pope an anti-Christ. This is the sign of an arrogant Church. Perhaps, I should say that Orthodoxy is not arrogant, but its leaders truly are.

Don’t fool yourself, I could have been more polite, but there are plenty of Catholics already out there bending over backward for your Church. Since I am young and foolish, I will be the one to take a stand on this little Catholic website. The Catholic Church made its mistake. The Catholic Church begged apology. Constantinople (Istanbul) stands firm in its obstinacy.

 

[h2oplyer7]

So let us start over then, brother. Here are my questions.

How do you know that the Filioque (in Latin NOT Greek) is heresy? By what authority?

How do you know the Pope is not the Infallible Head of the Church? By what authority?

By what authority does an council become an ecumenical council?

Was there biological death before the fall?

Is not the Immaculate Conception simply shielding the Virgin from the inclination toward sin, NOT INHERITED GUILT as the Catholic Church has NEVER taught?

There you go. Fire away.

 

[Mickey]

and you have born them to be true by your own actions.

Not at all.

You refuse to answer my questions, attempting to keep me in a lower position to you.

You did not ask questions…you just started hurling insults.

You imply that you can easily supply the answers, but I am not worth answering. That srikes me as arrogant.

I never said that. You made it up. Why do you fabricate things?

This is the sign of an arrogant Church. Perhaps, I should say that Orthodoxy is not arrogant, but its leaders truly are.

Wow! more insults!

Constantinople (Istanbul) stands firm in its obstinacy.

And with this final insult…I am glad to say that you are the second person ever to make it to my ignore list, Congratulations! :clapping:

Bye-bye!

 

[h2oplyer7]

I guess it is all about you then. Honestly, I hope you assess your attitude or reread my posts. I never started hurling insults. In fact, I was the one who said I consider the Orthodox part of the true Church. It was you who caused the divide. I am not as fancy as you when it comes to pulling quotes. You should be spin doctor for Fox News or CNN. You are truly in the league of Glenn Beck.

Bye bye.

 

[RyanBlack]

I guess it is all about you then. Honestly, I hope you assess your attitude or reread my posts. I never started hurling insults. In fact, I was the one who said I consider the Orthodox part of the true Church. It was you who caused the divide. I am not as fancy as you when it comes to pulling quotes. You should be spin doctor for Fox News or CNN. You are truly in the league of Glenn Beck.

Bye bye.

You have indeed been very insulting towards the Orthodox in this thread.