Eastern Orthodox influencing Lutherans?

[Casilda]

Any LCMS Lutherans care to share? About 10 yrs ago, a friend discussed how the major argument at the Synod convention was the issue of communion every week as opposed to bi-monthly. There was a controversy with some pastors distributing every week already, just alternating between first and second service. I was pleasantly surprised they do now have weekly communion. Now I learn that there was an outside procession with palms for Palm Sunday and they are having daily services for Holy Week.

Saw this article on their website:

https://www.lcms.org/worship/liturgy

 

[dochawk]

The Missouri Synod is . . . interesting . . .

On the one hand, they have an inclination to be more Catholic than Rome, and on the other they have to put it in terms that mean all Catholics are already damned . . .

Recall the joint statement on justification a couple of decades ago? The RCC and most of the world’s Lutheran groups hammered it out over a couple of years, and were all generally satisfied.

The LCMS response? Paraphrased, “There can be no talks until Rome admits that it is and always has been wrong on all issues, and that all Catholics are damed beyond Redemption.”

hawk

 

[Casilda]

So their anti-Catholic stance is leading them, ever so slowly, towards orthodoxy? I met a cradle Lutheran who converted to EO. Not a nice person.

 

[JonNC]

The LCMS response? Paraphrased, “There can be no talks until Rome admits that it is and always has been wrong on all issues, and that all Catholics are damed beyond Redemption.”

Really? I was Lutheran when the JDDJ was signed. I don’t remember this.

In fact, here’s what the LCMS actually says:

QUESTION: A non-Lutheran Christian friend of mine recently stated he believes Catholics are not saved and should not be considered Christians. What is the Synod’s belief regarding the salvation of Catholics who adhere to Roman dogma?

ANSWER: The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches (in contrast to “cults,” which typically reject the doctrine of the Trinity and thus cannot be recognized as Christian).

In fact, a primary “objective” listed in the Synod’s Constitution (Article III) is to “work through its official structure toward fellowship with other Christian church bodies” — which explicitly assumes that these “other church bodies” are “Christian” in nature.

That does not lessen the Synod’s concern for the false doctrine taught and confessed by these churches, but it does highlight the Synod’s recognition that wherever the “marks of the church” (the Gospel and Sacraments) are present—even where “mixed” with error—there the Christian church is present. Such a church is a heterodox church, that is, a church that teaches false doctrine.

Of course, personal salvation is not merely a matter of external membership in or association with any church organization or denomination (including the LCMS), but comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

All those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior are recognized as “Christians” by the Synod—only God can look into a person’s heart and see whether that person really believes. It is possible to have true and sincere faith in Jesus Christ even while having wrong or incomplete beliefs about other doctrinal issues.

This explains why former Synod President A.L. Barry called members of the Roman Catholic Church “our fellow Christians” in his statement Toward True Reconciliation, which at the same time identifies and laments the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

The great danger is that believing things contrary to God’s Word can obscure and perhaps even completely destroy belief in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior. We pray this will not happen to those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior and yet belong to heterodox church bodies, including fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church.

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/denominations#catholic

Hopefully, you’re just mistaken.

 

[dochawk]

So their anti-Catholic stance is leading them, ever so slowly, towards orthodoxy?

They’re moving more to RC liturgy than to Orthodoxy.

Really? I was Lutheran when the JDDJ was signed. I don’t remember this.

It was a quotation from some high official, printed in the San Jose Mercury News at the time.

I kind of gasped as I read it . . .

hawk

 

[Whitney]

I met a cradle Lutheran who converted to EO.

I have also met several Lutherans turned EO. Abbot Tryphon of the popular podcast “the Morning Offering” is a monk formerly Lutheran.

Was Martin Luther aware of the EO Church? I’ve always wondered.

 

[AlNg]

all Catholics are already damned

I didn’t know that Lutherans officially teach that all Catholics are already damned?

 

[dochawk]

I didn’t know that Lutherans officially teach that all Catholics are already damned?

Not Lutheran in general, but the rest of Lutherans and the Missouri Synod have minimal amounts in common. And I can’t tell you whether that was official or not; just what their spokesman spewed.

hawk

 

[Vanny]

I think the answer to that is yes, the reformers did dialogue with the EO- I have read-but they couldn’t come to agreement so it was dropped.
This is what I have read-I’m not that knowledgeable about it.

 

[Dhc8_Type]

Procession of the palms has always been the sunday school kids at my dad’s church. We’ve also always had palm sunday (conformation) maundy thursday (first communion as confirmed members) good friday and easter sunday.

 

[ATraveller]

I’m curious about that. You never hear much about the relationship between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy over the centuries except some of the national churches in Eastern Europe aren’t pleased with Evangelical or Pentecostal missionaries in their countries in recent years. Do you have any particular links or books even on this topic you would recommend?

 

[JonNC]

They don’t. Read the quote I posted

 

[JonNC]

Casilda:

I met a cradle Lutheran who converted to EO.

I have also met several Lutherans turned EO. Abbot Tryphon of the popular podcast “the Morning Offering” is a monk formerly Lutheran.

Was Martin Luther aware of the EO Church? I’ve always wondered.

As much as any other Central Europe theologian of the time.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutheran-orthodox.html

 

[JonNC]

AlNg:

I didn’t know that Lutherans officially teach that all Catholics are already damned?

Not Lutheran in general, but the rest of Lutherans and the Missouri Synod have minimal amounts in common. And I can’t tell you whether that was official or not; just what their spokesman spewed.

hawk

Yeah, this is not true, either. Not sure where you’re getting your information.
While there are significant divisions between the LCMS and ELCA, they are both still Lutheran, with their roots in the Book of Concord. The divisions mainly spring from the ELCA’s modernist / liberal drift from Lutheran Confessional orthodoxy.

 

[AlNg]

They don’t.

I didn’t think so.

 

[commenter]

The Missouri Synod is . . . interesting . . .

Recall the joint statement on justification a couple of decades ago? The RCC and most of the world’s Lutheran groups hammered it out over a couple of years, and were all generally satisfied.

The LCMS tends not to take part in ecumenical activities, but under the surface they are much closer to Catholicism than ELCA. ELCA gladly takes part in ecumenical activities with Catholics, with supporters of abortion and gay marriage, and with anybody else.

ELCA has renounced many of the positions they, themselves, took a few decades ago; so after a couple decades, their signature on any ecumenical position paper means almost nothing.

LCMS stands with the Catholic Church on Religious Liberty. ELCA stands mostly on the side of our opponents.

 

[steido01]

No. This is false. The LCMS does not and never has taught that “all Roman Catholics are damned.”

I am the son of an LCMS Pastor, who married a Roman Catholic. I am going to LCMS seminary. I can assure you we believe Roman Catholics to be our fellow Christians.

President (Bishop) of the LCMS, Matthew Harrison, has testified before Congress with Catholics standing beside him. He himself was involved in several Lutheran-Catholic projects to serve the poor and remains so today. The LCMS makes a point to work together with other Christians on social issues, even if we do not agree theologically enough to share worship or pulpits.

I would give more examples, but I’m traveling and typing on my phone.

—

As for the OP, the Lutheran Confessions state that communion each week is supposed to be the norm. This practice was difficult to do in America, where pastors had to “ride circuit,” and might not be around each week. Practice is slowly returning to normal after a hundred years of unorthodox practice.

As for the influence of Orthodox, not so much. Lutherans reached out to Patriarach Jeremias II back in the 1500s, but language, distance and rumors made that difficult. That, and the Filioque. Some great discussions took place in the 1990s, but I can’t link to them on my phone.

 

[steido01]

Know what really gets me about these sorts of topics?

Misinformation is almost always riddled throughought the first few responses, which usually encourages only enmity between Christians. Now when some seeker does a Google search, that’s what they’ll see. And they won’t spend time to read the thread or find out that it was wrong. So false information will carry the day, Christians will continue to unjustly lambast each other, and we may lose a soul that could’ve been won for Christ.

 

[AugustTherese]

I can assure you we believe Roman Catholics to be our fellow Christians.

I advise anyone here to go directly to the LCMS website to see what they confess to believe in their own words, no matter what anyone else may attempt to ‘redefine’ under the guise of ‘ecumenism’!

“We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified “by faith,” “by faith alone,” but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory.” - Brief Statement of LCMS, Of Justification, Adopted 1932 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

Notice: the excerpt does not use the term schism, or heresy, but ‘apostasy’!

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” - CCC 2089

The LCMS confesses ‘papists’, i.e. Roman Catholics, to be apostates, in that we have succumbed to the total repudiation of the Christian faith.

Website: Doctrine - The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

 

[babochka]

AlNg:

I didn’t know that Lutherans officially teach that all Catholics are already damned?

Not Lutheran in general, but the rest of Lutherans and the Missouri Synod have minimal amounts in common. And I can’t tell you whether that was official or not; just what their spokesman spewed.

hawk

Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Wisconsin Synod? They are vehemently anti-Catholic. While the Missouri Synod did not sign the joint declaration, I remember thinking at the time that their reasoning was solid and showed both integrity and openness to future dialog.