Eastern Orthodox Interpretation of Peter the Rock

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I’ve been reading Eastern Orthodox apologetics recently and I came acorss something very surprising. I always assumed the interpretation of “on this rock I will build my Church” as Peter’s confession of Faith, rather than Peter himself was an exclusively protestant interpretation.

Apparently the Orthodox interpret it the same way, and have Church Fathers to back them up:
What I quote is from the end notes to the Gospel according to Matthew in the Orthodox New Testament:
N.148 16:18a “On this rock” (taute te petra) – feminine demonstrative pronown and article–does not refer to the person of Peter. Christ would have used the masculine if He were referring to the person of Peter.
Blessed Theophylact: “The Lord is saying, ‘This confession which you have made shall be the foundation of those who believe,’” [P.G.123:85B (col. 320).]
Saint Chrysostom: "‘Upon this rock I will build.’: that is, on the faith of the confession. [Hom. 54, P.G.58:518 (col. 534).]
Saint Leo: “Upon this firmness, He says, I shall raise My Temple, and it will rise upon the steadfastness of this faith, and the loftiness of My Church will mingle with the heavens. The gates of Hades shall not master this profession; nor the bonds of death bind it. For these words are the words of life, and as they raise those who confess them up to heaven, so they plunge those that deny them down to hell.” [Sermon 83(2), P.G.54 (col. 429), in FC, 93:357; Toal, III:267, 268.]
Saint Bede: "'Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock from which thour didst receive thy name, that is, upon Me Myself, I will build My Church. Upon this perfection of faith which thou didst confess I will build My Church, and if anyone turns aside from the society of this confession, even though it may seem to him that he does great thiings, he will not beliong to the vuilding which ism My Church,;: “Homily I.165, Aftr Epiphany,” Homilies on the Gospels,Bk. One. 163.]
Can someone explain this to me? Eastern Orthodox claim that alot of the claims of Papal Primacy and so on are from Papist Propagandists. It seems more convincing by the day. Don’t worry, I’m still remaining Catholic, but it seems like Catholic apologists of the past haven’t been so honest with their interpretations.
 
I hope to be able to research deeper and come back to this later, but I want to leave a couple of my thoughts. First, the idea that Peter’s confession is the rock that Christ built his Church on is valid. But we don’t need to stop there. It’s not an either/or situation. Second, I feel like some tracts available here fall short and don’t always address the broader contest, at best leading to a too simple take on what some Church Fathers said.

For some additional direction, I’ll link to a website, though I don’t do this as an end, but a starting point to look into the opinions of less cited (at least on some tracts) Fathers: catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_orthodox_church_fathers.php

I’ll just add that St. Cyprian says Peter was given authority first to be a point of unity to the many who would be appointed later. His words here are sometimes taken to an extreme by Catholic apologists, but I would say, briefly, that this principle of unity in union with Peter’s chair continues.
 
Various early Christians identified the “rock” in Matthew 16:18 as either Peter himself or the faith confessed by Peter. In support of the identification of the rock as Peter himself, Jimmy Akin, the Director of Evangelization at Catholic Answers, in his book, The Fathers Know Best, quotes, among others, Tertullian of Carthage, Origen of Alexandria, St Cyprian of Carthage, Firmilian of Caesarea, the Letter of Clement to James, the Clementine Homilies, St Optatus of Milevis, St Ambrose of Milan, St Jerome, St Augustine of Hippo, the Council of Ephesus, St Sechnal of Ireland, Pope St Leo I, and the Council of Chalcedon. If I remember correctly, St Augustine of Hippo gave the rock both interpretations.
 
I’ve been reading Eastern Orthodox apologetics recently and I came acorss something very surprising. I always assumed the interpretation of “on this rock I will build my Church” as Peter’s confession of Faith, rather than Peter himself was an exclusively protestant interpretation.

Apparently the Orthodox interpret it the same way, and have Church Fathers to back them up:

Can someone explain this to me? Eastern Orthodox claim that alot of the claims of Papal Primacy and so on are from Papist Propagandists. It seems more convincing by the day. Don’t worry, I’m still remaining Catholic, but it seems like Catholic apologists of the past haven’t been so honest with their interpretations.
They could cite the Catechism too: “[We] believe in Jesus and confess: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.” (CCC 424)

The Church has always seen this as a both/and. Jesus built His Church upon Peter And his confession of faith. The Catechism says this too: “the gates of Hades will not prevail against [the Church]. … [Christ] thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death.” (CCC 552)

These interpretations are not incompatible and thus we should not be surprised to see both of them appear among the Fathers and in Church documents. In fact they are closely connected. In the study of literature, a common thing to look for is synecdoche: referring to a whole by a part, or a part by a whole. Thus we sometimes refer to a car by referring to its wheels: “He thinks he’s so cool because of his new set of wheels.” (We mean his new car.) Similarly, saying that the Church is founded on Peter’s confession of faith is not incompatible with the statement that it is built on Peter himself, because the principle of synecdoche reveals that literature can refer to one thing by the things closely connected with it.

A final point I would like to make. Exodus 2:10 says, “And she called his name Moses [Mosheh in Hebrew]: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water [mashah in Hebrew].” Does anybody say, “Aha, look, Mosheh is different from mashah, so therefore it wasn’t Moses who was drawn out of the water, it was someone else!” Of course not. A slight difference in name doesn’t imply a disconnect between the two things being spoken of. On the contrary, the fact that two very similar words are used shows that a connection is being made.

In Matthew 16:18, if Jesus had wanted to make a disconnect between the confession of faith and Peter, He could have chosen different words than Petros and petra. He could have used lithos or psephos, which were other words for rocks, and he could have avoided naming Peter after a rock if he didn’t want us to think Peter was the rock. Jesus chose to use words that are similar in sound, and the obvious conclusion is that He wanted to imply a connection.

This is in keeping with the constant biblical tradition about the significance of names, which in Scripture are often given in connection with a play on words in Hebrew or Greek that tells us something about the person being named. Genesis 3:20, Gen. 4:25, Gen. 5:29, Gen. 11:9, etc. etc. etc. all throughout Scripture all use one word for the name and a similar word to give its meaning. Jesus is obviously continuing this when He says “You are Petros and on this petra I will build my Church.” (Or in Aramaic: “You are Kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church.”) The fact that it is in this famous biblical tradition is already proof that Jesus is giving Peter’s purpose at the same time as he gives him that name. The name means Rock, therefore Peter is the rock being spoken of (as well as his confession).

I hope that helps. Please let me know.
 
I’ve been reading Eastern Orthodox apologetics recently and I came acorss something very surprising. I always assumed the interpretation of “on this rock I will build my Church” as Peter’s confession of Faith, rather than Peter himself was an exclusively protestant interpretation.

Apparently the Orthodox interpret it the same way, and have Church Fathers to back them up:

Can someone explain this to me? Eastern Orthodox claim that alot of the claims of Papal Primacy and so on are from Papist Propagandists. It seems more convincing by the day. Don’t worry, I’m still remaining Catholic, but it seems like Catholic apologists of the past haven’t been so honest with their interpretations.
Hi, Dominikus!
…you’ve hit on an extensive issue.

It boils down to Authority.

Christ Founded one Church, gave the Keys of the Kingdom to one Disciple, and sent the Holy Spirit to one Body… as the Church emerged challenges began to take place; issues of Doctrine and Practice arose; issues of Authority arose:
Cyprian responded with another tract, On the Unity of the Church where he speaks of the Petrine authority resting in Rome. He also emphasizes the unity of having one bishop, stating that one “cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church as his mother.” This statement was obviously directed at Novatian for his defection.
What becomes clear from the letters and writings of Cyprian is that the regional college of bishops was normative. The bishop of Rome was an important position, holding the seat of Peter, but it appears that Cyprian only used this expression as a tactic against his theological opponents. When he disagreed with Rome, the bishop there did not have primacy. The Roman bishop had already been referred to as “popa,” the “father” of the Italian bishops, but the 86 African bishops at Carthage made it clear that the concept of a “Pope” holding supreme leadership had not yet been settled.
(churchhistory101.com/century3-p5.php)
The Apostles Appointed Bishops: 9 Teachings from St. Clement AD 97
“Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore… they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.”
  1. Rome Has Spoken
    Chapter LIX reveals that Pope St. Clement I is not afraid to teach apostolic succession nor to utilize its authority as well. It is reminiscent of how St. Paul scolded the Churches he founded by an authority he traced to Christ and Sts. Peter and James.
Apostolic Authority
“If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger; but we shall be innocent of this sin, and, instant in prayer and supplication, shall desire that the Creator of all preserve unbroken the computed number of His elect in the whole world through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light.”
Letter to the Corinithians (ca. 80 A.D.)
Chapter 1
“The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace and peace from Almighty God be multiplied unto you through Jesus Christ.”
Chapter 29
“You will afford us joy and gladness if, being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy, in accord with the plea for peace and concord which we have made in this letter.”
(catholicfaithandreason.org/st-clement-of-rome-died-110-ad.html)
…it is evident from early Church Writings that various issues were being established, inclusive of Church Doctrine and Authority, and Church Unity and Hierarchy–all through Apostolic Succession.

Sadly, as man would have it, strife and power-mongering is not limited to the secular experience.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Various early Christians identified the “rock” in Matthew 16:18 as either Peter himself or the faith confessed by Peter. In support of the identification of the rock as Peter himself, Jimmy Akin, the Director of Evangelization at Catholic Answers, in his book, The Fathers Know Best, quotes, among others, Tertullian of Carthage, Origen of Alexandria, St Cyprian of Carthage, Firmilian of Caesarea, the Letter of Clement to James, the Clementine Homilies, St Optatus of Milevis, St Ambrose of Milan, St Jerome, St Augustine of Hippo, the Council of Ephesus, St Sechnal of Ireland, Pope St Leo I, and the Council of Chalcedon. If I remember correctly, St Augustine of Hippo gave the rock both interpretations.
I agree, I had the understand when it comes to the rock being St. Peter or St. Peter’s confession of Faith, that it is not or it is and/both.

Look forward to reading other answers.
 
The Orthodox New Testament, not an exhaustive source. As a Catholic who once seriously considered Eastern Orthodoxy, they keenly leave out a lot of details when explaining their faith. They garner a lot of protestants with that tactic.

They can not deny the historical fact of Peter’s primacy, first among equals. I could not deny Peter, therefore, am still Catholic.
 
As the other posters have noted - it is not one or the other it is both - Peter the Man and Peter’s confession of faith …

I am sure you can see that … and it really is as simple as looking at the exchange …

Clearly Jesus is quoting Isaiah and an “office” is being created … the office holder is being given the “Keys” that open and shut …

A profession of faith cannot hold “keys” … it can inform you about what the keys can do - but it cannot make the keys function … that takes the operation of the one who holds the keys …

Similarly when people say that Jesus is the Rock he in taking about … Logically the one who already possesses keys does not hand the keys to himself with instructions about all the keys can do …

And those who say that Isaiah is not a good analogy because the Prime Minister in Isaiah is Christ are essentially demoting Christ from King to a lessor office …

And those who say that in revelation it is Christ who holds the key also do not understand that providing authority to a person who can act on your behalf - like the Prime Minister for the Davidic KIng and Peter for Christ takes nothing away from the the King or Christ. The King always possess the “Master Key” … If I give my son a key to my house so that he can act on my behalf - I do not relinquish my ownership and authority over my house nor my right to reclaim the keys.

And to our Eastern Brethren - not all the Apostles were given the Keys - while they were all given an authority to Bind and Loose sins - only Peter was given the keys that authority to open and close the very gates of Heaven … and if more than one were given those keys - could one close what another with keys had opened? Could open what another had closed … there is a reason there was only one Prime Minister in the Davidic Kingdom - because no matter how many deputies a King might have - only one could exercise the role to speak for the King in his absence lest two or more speak in a manner that created chaos and confusion being at cross purposes
 
]I’ll just add that St. Cyprian says Peter was given authority first to be a point of unity to the many who would be appointed later. His words here are sometimes taken to an extreme by Catholic apologists, but I would say, briefly, that this principle of unity in union with Peter’s chair continues.
St Cyprian claimed that as a bishop, he himself sat in Peter’s chair, so I don’t put much stock in how Catholic apologists interpret his writings.
 
And to our Eastern Brethren - not all the Apostles were given the Keys - while they were all given an authority to Bind and Loose sins - only Peter was given the keys that authority to open and close the very gates of Heaven … and if more than one were given those keys - could one close what another with keys had opened? Could open what another had closed … there is a reason there was only one Prime Minister in the Davidic Kingdom - because no matter how many deputies a King might have - only one could exercise the role to speak for the King in his absence lest two or more speak in a manner that created chaos and confusion being at cross purposes
St John Chrysostom states that the apostle John is also holder of the keys.
 
I’ve been reading Eastern Orthodox apologetics recently and I came acorss something very surprising. I always assumed the interpretation of “on this rock I will build my Church” as Peter’s confession of Faith, rather than Peter himself was an exclusively protestant interpretation.

Apparently the Orthodox interpret it the same way, and have Church Fathers to back them up:

Can someone explain this to me? Eastern Orthodox claim that alot of the claims of Papal Primacy and so on are from Papist Propagandists. It seems more convincing by the day. Don’t worry, I’m still remaining Catholic, but it seems like Catholic apologists of the past haven’t been so honest with their interpretations.
This is a historically factual look at the issue, minus the polemics of either side…catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1355

Instead of repeating all the known arguments pro and contra, let us try the historical method and examine the position which the Byzantine Church took on this problem from earliest times on up to the period when the estrangement between the Eastern and Western parts of mediaeval Christianity became apparent and began to envenom the atmosphere in which the Churches had to live.
 
I’ve been reading Eastern Orthodox apologetics recently and I came acorss something very surprising. I always assumed the interpretation of “on this rock I will build my Church” as Peter’s confession of Faith, rather than Peter himself was an exclusively protestant interpretation.

Apparently the Orthodox interpret it the same way, and have Church Fathers to back them up:

Can someone explain this to me? Eastern Orthodox claim that alot of the claims of Papal Primacy and so on are from Papist Propagandists. It seems more convincing by the day. Don’t worry, I’m still remaining Catholic, but it seems like Catholic apologists of the past haven’t been so honest with their interpretations.
These are good reads on the issue too:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/archbishop-minnerath-on-rome-the-papacy-and-the-east/

hprweb.com/2015/02/the-primacy-of-the-pope-as-viewed-in-dissident-byzantium-by-symeon-of-thessalonica-14167-1429/
 
St John Chrysostom states that the apostle John is also holder of the keys.
I thought the context that St. Chrysostom meant the keys of heaven was regarding the apostles ability to bind and loose sins.

For when He says, “Whose soever sins ye retain they are retained, whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted” ( John xx. 23 ) when they have the keys of heaven, how can all be other than heavenly?

And I agree with that. But I doubt whether he is referring to the keys that Jesus gave to Peter.

Elsewhere in his homily St John Chrysostom said Peter had the keys of heaven too.

As far as I know , Jesus gave the keys to Peter only. And I have come to interpret that the holder of the keys is supposed to lead/feed the sheep/lambs, a task solely given to Peter. Hence, ties in with the building of the Church on Peter. I have not come across any record of John the Apostle succeeding Peter nor John taking over the keys from Peter. Nor the Gospel of John record him receiving any sort of keys from Jesus either.
 
St Cyprian claimed that as a bishop, he himself sat in Peter’s chair, so I don’t put much stock in how Catholic apologists interpret his writings.
Hi!
…and you are correct in not putting “much stock” in man’s words or interpretations… where you fail is when you reject Christ’s Delegation. Basically you are telling God that He had it wrong… that it is you who actually hold the Keys and Knowledge–hence, you make yourself a god, don’t you?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
St John Chrysostom states that the apostle John is also holder of the keys.
Hi!
…so you are intimating that St. John Chrysostom held all of the Apostles in the same regards and deference?

Here’s what I found about St. John’s addressing Kephas/Cephas:
In the first place, let us note St. Chrysostom’s habit of showing his extraordinary reverence for St. Peter, by habitually adding to his name a whole list of titles, for instance:
Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])
“Peter the coryphaeus of the choir of apostles,** the mouth of the disciples, the foundation of the faith, the base of the confession, the fisherman of the world, who brought back our race form the depth of error to heaven**, he who is everywhere fervent and full of boldness, or rather of love than of boldness.” (Hom de decem mille talentis, 3, vol III, 20[4])
“The first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the disciples.” (Ad eos qui scandalizati sunt, 17, vol III, 517[504])
“The foundation of the Church, the vehement lover of Christ, at once unlearned in speech, and the vanquisher of orators, the man without education who closed the mouth of philosophers, who destroyed the philosophy of the Greeks as though it were a spider’s web, he who ran throughout the world, he who cast his net into the sea, and fished the whole world.” (In illud, Vidi dominum, 3, vol VI, 123[124])
Peter, the base, the pillar…” (Hom Quod frequenta conueniendum sit, 5, vol XII, 466[328])
“This holy coryphaeus of the blessed choir, the lover of Christ, the ardent disciple,** who was entrusted with the keys of heaven**, he who received the spiritual revelation.” (In Acta Apost VI, I [chap 2, verse 22] vol IX, 56[48]) (biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num52.htm)
…could you verify that St. John Chrysostom held the other Apostles in the same regards and deference, by providing similar quotes?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox positions are not monolith, they are more of a spectrum from the “faith of Peter” to “and also the Person of Peter”. However, there is also the point that EO/OO would state that EVERY BISHOP is in seat of Peter within his diocese/jursidictional area. The disagreement on the Roman Pope is normally about where that jurisdictional area extends - Catholics say universally; some EO/OOs can accept a local, regional or even multi-regional Patriarchal jurisdiction, but reject any universal jurisdiction that supercedes the local and regional. The Catholic Church also respects the immediate, ordinary authority of the local bishop - as one can see with Medjugorjie - it is not accepted primarily because the local bishop has claimed it is a fraud. Full stop. It does not go any further.
 
The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox positions are not monolith, they are more of a spectrum from the “faith of Peter” to “and also the Person of Peter”. However, there is also the point that EO/OO would state that EVERY BISHOP is in seat of Peter within his diocese/jursidictional area. The disagreement on the Roman Pope is normally about where that jurisdictional area extends - Catholics say universally; some EO/OOs can accept a local, regional or even multi-regional Patriarchal jurisdiction, but reject any universal jurisdiction that supercedes the local and regional. The Catholic Church also respects the immediate, ordinary authority of the local bishop - as one can see with **Medjugorjie **- it is not accepted primarily because the local bishop has claimed it is a fraud. Full stop. It does not go any further.
Hi!
…could you expand on your thought? (I’ve highlighted the two points I’m concerned with.)

Thank you!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
The Bishop of Mostar has stated (the 2nd local Bishop now opposed) that there is nothing supernatural occurring in regard to the claims by the alleged seers. His opinion can be read in the book Throne of Wisdom, 1995. The late Bishop Pavao Žanić also opposed the authenticity of the claim.

The Bishop of Rome while claiming universal jurisdiction, does not usurp the ordinary and immediate rightful jurisdiction of the local bishop:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm
 
Paul himself addressed him as Cephas in recognition/ respect to his authority when he talked to him about a discipline in Galatians 2…
Could this help?
 
And to our Eastern Brethren - not all the Apostles were given the Keys - while they were all given an authority to Bind and Loose sins - only Peter was given the keys that authority to open and close the very gates of Heaven … and if more than one were given those keys - could one close what another with keys had opened? Could open what another had closed … there is a reason there was only one Prime Minister in the Davidic Kingdom - because no matter how many deputies a King might have - only one could exercise the role to speak for the King in his absence lest two or more speak in a manner that created chaos and confusion being at cross purposes
Except there are a number of Latin Fathers even who say the exact opposite. This has been hashed out in a number of previous threads here where I showed this in detail and via Latin, etc. Since this topic comes up so often, I wound up simply creating a blog where I store my past arguments, evidence, and translations. In times past, I’ve been accused of self-aggrandizement, or even evangelization, etc. for posting links to my own blog. And if this was the apologetics section of the forum, I would agree with that assessment. However, since we are in Non-Catholics section, I assume that this matter is up for discussion for both Catholics and Non-Catholics, which would obviously include us Orthodox. Therefore, I will post the links because this is a very interesting topic.

With that long intro and caveat, I’ll go ahead and lay my cards on the table with the upmost respect for my Catholic friends here. I freely admit that these are somewhat polemical, but I ask that we just stick to the direct evidence (quotes of the Fathers) that I present. I could tailor the evidence all over again for this thread in particular, but that would require an exorbitant amount of time considering the amount of evidence I have amassed that contradicts your position. If there is any dispute with any of the evidence presented, then please quote it in a quote box.

Is Peter the Rock?: The Opinion of the Latin Fathers

Peter and the Keys: An Addendum to the Rock
Hi!
…could you expand on your thought? (I’ve highlighted the two points I’m concerned with.)

Thank you!

Maran atha!

Angel
I hope that I am not presumptive in answering the question. If so, my apologies. In theory, there is nothing objectionable in the idea of a universal jurisdiction if it was collegially established via council or something along those lines. Whether or not we would want to establish that is another story entirely. What we object to is the idea that the universal office and jurisdiction was divinely established and therefore a theological necessity.
 
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