Eastern Orthodox Teachings

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Are there teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church which Roman Catholics [or any genuine Christian] should reject on a theological level? No need to split hairs or throw food. If there are theological deal-breakers, lets compile a short list.
 
Are there teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church which Roman Catholics [or any genuine Christian] should reject on a theological level? No need to split hairs or throw food. If there are theological deal-breakers, lets compile a short list.
I can’t think of one. Eastern Catholics bring their traditions and theology which is basically the same as the Orthodox. Even the Filioque is not used in Eastern Churches anymore. I think the only issue that remains between the Orthodox and Catholics is the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and this is huge.
 
EO allow artificial birth control (pill, condoms, vasectomy, tubal ligation) in marriage. They also allow up to two “ecclesiastical divorces”, which means they are allowed to marry up to three times (and some EO Churches allow more than 2 ecclesiastical divorces). ABC and ecclesiastical divorces are not allowed in the CC.

EO say the filioque is a heresy. The CC says the filioque (“and from the Son”) addition to the Latin text of the Creed is perfectly sound theologically, it is not a heresy. EO also reject the Catholic dogmas of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, as heresies.

As recently as 2006, many Russian priests of the reunified Russian EOC, and many Russian EO believers, regarded the use of the New Calendar (Gregorian Calendar) and the use of pews and musical instruments in other churches (I mean both in the Catholic Churches and in many EO Churches such as the Greek and Antiochian), as heresies. Thus, Russian priests instructed the believers not to present themselves for communion in the New Calendar Churches, and this ban referred not only to the CC, but also to Greek, Antiochian, and other EOC that used the New Calendar, and possibly had pews and musical instruments.

Regarding the role of the Pope, EO theologians maintain that the Pope has fallen into heresy by accepting the filioque, and/or the Pope’s primacy is merely one of honor, but not of jurisdiction. As one poster jokingly put it, the Pope will get the drumstick at the Thanksgiving turkey dinner (after he has repented of his filioque heresy and after he has been subsequently restored to his seat of honor by the EO Churches), but that’s about it. That’s going to be what he will be entitled to, in virtue of his primacy of honor. He is not going to be regarded as infallible in matters of faith and morals, by the EO Churches. The EO Churches are also not going to recognize the Pope’s “immediate and ordinary jurisdiction” in the universal Church, even after he repents of his supposedly heretical views.

Historically, EO Churches also regarded the use of unleavened bread by the Roman CC in the Eucharist as a heretic practice. The shaving of beards by RCC clergy was likewise rejected as unacceptable. These were reasons deemed serious enough, from the side of EOC, to break communion with the RCC. I suspect the Russian EOC still regards these RCC practices (unleavened bread, shaving of beards) as heretic and grave enough to cut off the RCC from communion.

I can’t talk for all EOC, because some of them are agnostic regarding the validity of RC sacraments, and some regarded them as valid at certain times during their history, while others rejected them. E.g. the Russian EOC ruled in the 18th century that the RC baptism and Eucharist are valid, but the present-day Russian EOC regards the RC Eucharist as devoid of grace and mocks it as nothing more than ordinary bread and wine, and also prescribes that converts from Roman Catholicism to Russian EO should be re-baptized, which implicitly means that they do not believe in the effectiveness of RC baptism.

Certain EOC, such as the Russian, regard the Catholic saints, who have been canonized by the CC, such as St. Catherine of Siena, St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Teresa of Avila, as nothing more than self-absorbed and delusional people who should be mocked and made fun of. E.g., the stigmata of St. Francis of Assisi and others were caused by self-hypnosis, and their alleged mystical experiences (apparitions of Jesus Christ, Holy Mary, and angels to these Catholic saints) were either hallucinations of their disbalanced minds, or alternatively came from the devil himself. They have a similarly unflattering opinion about the Marian apparitions approved as trustworthy by the CC, including Lourdes and Fatima - there was nothing supernatural in them, or if there was, that came from the devil, according to Russian EO belief.
 
The EO doesn’t allow the pill or other methods of birth control that may cause abortion. And apart from that, there are a lot of half-truths in the previous post.
 
The EO doesn’t allow the pill or other methods of birth control that may cause abortion. And apart from that, there are a lot of half-truths in the previous post.
Thanks for the correction regarding the pill and other methods of ABC that cause abortion.

I forgot to mention this, my knowledge refers mostly to Russian Eastern Orthodoxy. Since there is considerable heterogenity between the beliefs of various EO Churches, I run the risk that some of my statements will apply only to some EO Churches, but not to others. E.g., I’ve met a Russian priest and Russian folks who mocked the Eucharist of the CC in a manner that I found utterly shocking, but then again I met another EO Bishop (with the Society of Clerks of Saint Basil Secular) who was convinced that the Catholic Eucharist is valid, and did his utmost to re-establish intercommunion between his Church and the CC, pursuant to his personal visit to Soufanieh (Syria), where Holy Mary has been appearing since 1982, with a call for reunification of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Thus, my statements may apply to some EO Churches, but not to others.

Also, when I visited the website of a Greek Orthodox Church in FL, I found an image of Jesus as he appeared to Sr. Faustina Kowalska (Divine Mercy image), on the homepage of this particular Greek EOC. Yet, I’ve met an EO community frequented by Russians and also Greeks where anything like this would have been considered anathema, as they were adamant in their beliefs that the CC is devoid of sanctifying grace, whether through our Eucharist and baptism, our Saints, or our Marian apparitions. In fact, the Russian EO priest of that community gave me an article, downloaded from an EO apologetic website, which thoroughly mocked our Catholic saints and Marian apparitions. The article was the transcript of a lecture by a renowned EO theologian at a Russian EO seminary for priestly formation.

So, I apologize for failing to make this limitation of my post sufficiently clear previously. Beyond this heterogeneity of the EO beliefs, to the best of my knowledge, what I posted accurately represents what the beliefs of at least some of the EO Churches are.
 
EO allow artificial birth control (pill, condoms, vasectomy, tubal ligation) in marriage. They also allow up to two “ecclesiastical divorces”, which means they are allowed to marry up to three times (and some EO Churches allow more than 2 ecclesiastical divorces). ABC and ecclesiastical divorces are not allowed in the CC.

EO say the filioque is a heresy. The CC says the filioque (“and from the Son”) addition to the Latin text of the Creed is perfectly sound theologically, it is not a heresy. EO also reject the Catholic dogmas of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, as heresies.

As recently as 2006, many Russian priests of the reunified Russian EOC, and many Russian EO believers, regarded the use of the New Calendar (Gregorian Calendar) and the use of pews and musical instruments in other churches (I mean both in the Catholic Churches and in many EO Churches such as the Greek and Antiochian), as heresies. Thus, Russian priests instructed the believers not to present themselves for communion in the New Calendar Churches, and this ban referred not only to the CC, but also to Greek, Antiochian, and other EOC that used the New Calendar, and possibly had pews and musical instruments.

Regarding the role of the Pope, EO theologians maintain that the Pope has fallen into heresy by accepting the filioque, and/or the Pope’s primacy is merely one of honor, but not of jurisdiction. As one poster jokingly put it, the Pope will get the drumstick at the Thanksgiving turkey dinner (after he has repented of his filioque heresy and after he has been subsequently restored to his seat of honor by the EO Churches), but that’s about it. That’s going to be what he will be entitled to, in virtue of his primacy of honor. He is not going to be regarded as infallible in matters of faith and morals, by the EO Churches. The EO Churches are also not going to recognize the Pope’s “immediate and ordinary jurisdiction” in the universal Church, even after he repents of his supposedly heretical views.

Historically, EO Churches also regarded the use of unleavened bread by the Roman CC in the Eucharist as a heretic practice. The shaving of beards by RCC clergy was likewise rejected as unacceptable. These were reasons deemed serious enough, from the side of EOC, to break communion with the RCC. I suspect the Russian EOC still regards these RCC practices (unleavened bread, shaving of beards) as heretic and grave enough to cut off the RCC from communion.

I can’t talk for all EOC, because some of them are agnostic regarding the validity of RC sacraments, and some regarded them as valid at certain times during their history, while others rejected them. E.g. the Russian EOC ruled in the 18th century that the RC baptism and Eucharist are valid, but the present-day Russian EOC regards the RC Eucharist as devoid of grace and mocks it as nothing more than ordinary bread and wine, and also prescribes that converts from Roman Catholicism to Russian EO should be re-baptized, which implicitly means that they do not believe in the effectiveness of RC baptism.

Certain EOC, such as the Russian, regard the Catholic saints, who have been canonized by the CC, such as St. Catherine of Siena, St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Teresa of Avila, as nothing more than self-absorbed and delusional people who should be mocked and made fun of. E.g., the stigmata of St. Francis of Assisi and others were caused by self-hypnosis, and their alleged mystical experiences (apparitions of Jesus Christ, Holy Mary, and angels to these Catholic saints) were either hallucinations of their disbalanced minds, or alternatively came from the devil himself. They have a similarly unflattering opinion about the Marian apparitions approved as trustworthy by the CC, including Lourdes and Fatima - there was nothing supernatural in them, or if there was, that came from the devil, according to Russian EO belief.
Thanks for the response.

I am a cradle RC. My experience with Eastern Orthodox Christianity is limited. I realize that Eastern Orthodoxy is made up of a number of Churches and Rites which developed over the course of two thousand years. Some local and cultural differences are to be expected. I’m sure that some of these differences - within Orthodoxy - will make for an interesting discussion some day. Certainly, there are some beliefs and teaching that are common to all, ie the Blessed Trinity, the life, death and resurrection of Christ, etc.

What are the official teachings of Eastern Orthodoxy - those matters agreed upon as being essential to the Faith - that are absolutely irreconcilable with the essential teachings of Roman Catholicism?
 
Thanks for the response.

I am a cradle RC. My experience with Eastern Orthodox Christianity is limited. I realize that Eastern Orthodoxy is made up of a number of Churches and Rites which developed over the course of two thousand years. Some local and cultural differences are to be expected. I’m sure that some of these differences - within Orthodoxy - will make for an interesting discussion some day. Certainly, there are some beliefs and teaching that are common to all, ie the Blessed Trinity, the life, death and resurrection of Christ, etc.

What are the official teachings of Eastern Orthodoxy - those matters agreed upon as being essential to the Faith - that are absolutely irreconcilable with the essential teachings of Roman Catholicism?
It depends on whether you mean from a Catholic or Orthodox POV. From a Catholic perspective there is very little - mostly the view of the papacy. Catholicism regards most Orthodox ideas as just fine, because they see their own Catholic doctrines as being simply outgrowths or further explication of the Orthodox belief. That is why they are ok with the Eastern Cahtolics keeping most of their theological formulations.

From the Orthodox perspective, these Catholic outgrowths are actually heretical developments, so they cannot co-exist. They see them as contradictory. The filioque is an example, or the idea that the Pope can appoint and remove other bishops. Also perhaps penance and certain aspects or purgatory and indulgences. Then there are further things which are not perhaps doctrinal but which they regard as dangerous - an emphasis on some dangerous theological models and spiritual practices, for example, or the state of the liturgy.
 
Sounds like the Catholic Church has a much more flexible view towards the EO then the EO does to the CC. I would be interested in seeing some EO chime in and give their two cents, or more, on the issues.
 
Sounds like the Catholic Church has a much more flexible view towards the EO then the EO does to the CC. I would be interested in seeing some EO chime in and give their two cents, or more, on the issues.
To put it simply, the Catholic Church sees the Orthodox the same way the Anglicans see Catholics, while the Orthodox see Catholics the same way Catholics see Anglicans. This is a simplification, but it works.

As for flexibility, the Catholic Church doesn’t care what we believe as long as we acknowledge the pope as supreme bishop and all that. They want a unity of juristiction rather than a unity of faith. Meanwhile we want a unity of faith and reject a unity of juristiction altogether (when Orthodox talk of unity they absolutely do not mean that), so Orthodox are more intent to kwibble on the details while Catholics will gladly gloss them over.

I would have no issue acknowledging the pope as my Patriarch were a legitimate Ecumenical Council to declare North America to be his territory, however as it stands I do not recognise his claim to be legitimate and therefore do not acknowledge him.
 
… the Catholic Church doesn’t care what we believe as long as we acknowledge the pope as supreme bishop and all that. They want a unity of juristiction rather than a unity of faith…
:rolleyes: You,of course, have no standing to speak for the Catholic Church - what it cares about or does not care about. And what you write here is utter falsehood.
 
:rolleyes: You,of course, have no standing to speak for the Catholic Church - what it cares about or does not care about. And what you write here is utter falsehood.
And you’re a troll who has claimed in the past that you believe whatever the pope tells you to believe, but don’t actually know what he’s telling you to believe. You have no place to comment.

I go by what the Catholic Church shows itself to want. When it joins Communion with Nestorians, Monophysites, and Anglicans without requiring them to adopt its faith, it shows it just wants power.
 
I would have no issue acknowledging the pope as my Patriarch were a legitimate Ecumenical Council to declare North America to be his territory, however as it stands I do not recognise his claim to be legitimate and therefore do not acknowledge him.
That’s interesting. You know, I wouldn’t have assumed that the Pope would be the Patriarch of the West. I mean, it’s called the West, but the East coast of Canada, for example, is closer to the East. And that would just be a huge area.

As an aside, I basically understand the Orthodox political jumble in North America, but who is in charge in Western Europe? I was talking to a friend who had dated an Orthodox convert, and when he moved to the UK apparently he found it much more “ethnic” than it was here. THere was no equivalent to the OCA.
 
That’s interesting. You know, I wouldn’t have assumed that the Pope would be the Patriarch of the West. I mean, it’s called the West, but the East coast of Canada, for example, is closer to the East. And that would just be a huge area.

As an aside, I basically understand the Orthodox political jumble in North America, but who is in charge in Western Europe? I was talking to a friend who had dated an Orthodox convert, and when he moved to the UK apparently he found it much more “ethnic” than it was here. THere was no equivalent to the OCA.
Who is in charge in Western Europe? It’s a similar situation to what we have here in the Americas. There are a number of different jurisdictions which are subordinate to their mother Churches. Of course things are starting to change with the Chambesy agreement and the local episcopal assemblies. Each of those assemblies are chaired by the senior hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. They are each working towards a model for jurisdictional unity to be decided upon at the upcoming Great and Holy Council in 2013. We’ll see how it all pans out.

In Christ
Joe
 
And you’re a troll…
:rolleyes:
… who has claimed in the past that you believe whatever the pope tells you to believe, but don’t actually know what he’s telling you to believe. You have no place to comment.
You don’t think that you are mischaracterizing my beliefs? Please dig up the conversation.
I go by what the Catholic Church shows itself to want. When it joins Communion with Nestorians, Monophysites, and Anglicans without requiring them to adopt its faith, it shows it just wants power.
You don’ think that you are mischaracterizing the Catholic Church? Save this stuff for the Indiana list.
 
I know that I have attended St Seraphims Russian Orthodox cathedral in Dallas and have talked with the bishop there. They are on the same calendar as everyone else.

They have a different understanding of original sin, they don’t exactly reject the Immaculate Conception. In fact they may have even more devotion to Our Lady than the Catholic church, and call OL the All Holy Theotokos and at the vespers service they say ‘Holy Mother of God, save us’.

They most certainly beleive in the Assumption, they just call it the Dormition but they do think that OL died, the Catholic dogma just does not say for sure whether she died or not.

Many EO clergy do not wear beards, and while they prefer leavened bread for the Holy Eucharist they do not think Hosts are Heretical. not to mention pews and beards.

Perhaps you were in contact with rather extreme ROs, something like the ROCOR here in America?
 
I know that I have attended St Seraphims Russian Orthodox cathedral in Dallas and have talked with the bishop there. They are on the same calendar as everyone else.

They have a different understanding of original sin, they don’t exactly reject the Immaculate Conception. In fact they may have even more devotion to Our Lady than the Catholic church, and call OL the All Holy Theotokos and at the vespers service they say ‘Holy Mother of God, save us’.

They most certainly beleive in the Assumption, they just call it the Dormition but they do think that OL died, the Catholic dogma just does not say for sure whether she died or not.

Many EO clergy do not wear beards, and while they prefer leavened bread for the Holy Eucharist they do not think Hosts are Heretical. not to mention pews and beards.

Perhaps you were in contact with rather extreme ROs, something like the ROCOR here in America?
St. Seraphim’s is OCA, not ROCOR or Russian Synodal. I imagine you talked to Bishop Dmitri? I’ve heard many good things about him.

Where did you hear that most EO clergy don’t wear beards? That is the norm. The ones that don’t are not in line with tradition. In America, it is a little different amongst certain jurisdictions, but in most of the Slavic churches you will see bearded clergy (and especially at all Orthodox monasteries), especially back in traditional Orthodox lands. Pews are also not part of our tradition either and have their origins in Protestantism, something Roman Catholics latched onto in the 16-17th centuries. Sadly, some Orthodox in America thought they would look more American if they had clean shaved faces and pews in their churches, but thank God we are moving away from this.

Also, we don’t prefer leavened bread, but it has been our tradition for nearly 2 millenia. We accept leavened hosts in Western Rite Orthodox churches, but not unleavened. We do believe that is heretical.

We do love the Mother of God. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
St. Seraphim’s is OCA, not ROCOR or Russian Synodal. I imagine you talked to Bishop Dmitri? I’ve heard many good things about him.

Where did you hear that most EO clergy don’t wear beards? That is the norm. The ones that don’t are not in line with tradition. In America, it is a little different amongst certain jurisdictions, but in most of the Slavic churches you will see bearded clergy (and especially at all Orthodox monasteries), especially back in traditional Orthodox lands. Pews are also not part of our tradition either and have their origins in Protestantism, something Roman Catholics latched onto in the 16-17th centuries. Sadly, some Orthodox in America thought they would look more American if they had clean shaved faces and pews in their churches, but thank God we are moving away from this.

Also, we don’t prefer leavened bread, but it has been our tradition for nearly 2 millenia. We accept leavened hosts in Western Rite Orthodox churches, but not unleavened. We do believe that is heretical.

We do love the Mother of God. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
What about the poor fellows who grow scrimpy beards, or none at all?
 
Historically, EO Churches also regarded the use of unleavened bread by the Roman CC in the Eucharist as a heretic practice. The shaving of beards by RCC clergy was likewise rejected as unacceptable. These were reasons deemed serious enough, from the side of EOC, to break communion with the RCC. I suspect the Russian EOC still regards these RCC practices (unleavened bread, shaving of beards) as heretic and grave enough to cut off the RCC from communion.
I seem to recall that it was the Latin side that piled on the accusations of deviancy, enumerated in the bull of excommunication placed on the altar of Hagia Sophia.

Regarding the use of unleavened bread, the EO understood it as heretical because the Armenians–seen as Monophysite heretics at the time–used it.

The Russian Churches are in communion with the Antiochians, whose WRO parishes use unleavened bread.
 
St. Seraphim’s is OCA, not ROCOR or Russian Synodal. I imagine you talked to Bishop Dmitri? I’ve heard many good things about him.

Where did you hear that most EO clergy don’t wear beards? That is the norm. The ones that don’t are not in line with tradition. In America, it is a little different amongst certain jurisdictions, but in most of the Slavic churches you will see bearded clergy (and especially at all Orthodox monasteries), especially back in traditional Orthodox lands. Pews are also not part of our tradition either and have their origins in Protestantism, something Roman Catholics latched onto in the 16-17th centuries. Sadly, some Orthodox in America thought they would look more American if they had clean shaved faces and pews in their churches, but thank God we are moving away from this.

Also, we don’t prefer leavened bread, but it has been our tradition for nearly 2 millenia. We accept leavened hosts in Western Rite Orthodox churches, but not unleavened. We do believe that is heretical.

Well St Seraphim’s is still Russian, formerly know as Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic. I have seen many Antiochian clergy who were beardless. And I did say many not most there is a difference.

How does one make a leavened host?

I am glad for chairs or benches along the side since I am infirm from a stroke. St Seraphims has benches around the sides, just can’t stand all the way through a 2 hour liturgy.

A lot of Orthodox here in America use churches built for other denominations, that come with pews already present. They just don’t as a rule sit except for the sermon.

We do love the Mother of God. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
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