Eastern Orthodox Teachings

[dvdjs]

So you have anecdotal evidence of Antiochian bishops here in the States allowing their priests to knowingly commune non-Orthodox?

Good grief. Here are some discussions that I quickly came up with by googling:
ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?url=archives/441-On-the-Statement-of-the-Archdiocese.html&serendipity[cview]=linear
ocanews.org/ReplytoMorris4.7.09.html
ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?url=archives/357-Response-to-Fr.-Morris.html&serendipity[cview]=threaded
orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14834.0
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/247533#Post247533
etc,

Is this evidence? Not direct evidence. Do I know that priests involved have not been excommunicated? No. I can only say that discussion of communing non-Orthodox in the Antiochian church is very, very common, and involves including testimony from those who identify as Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox. It is so common that I was taken aback by your certainty in your comments.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

The parish belongs to the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Patriarchate of Antioch. I met the pastor and several deacons before Mass. They knew I was Roman Catholic and interested in the Western Rite Mass and Benedictine Office. They hooked me up with St. Andrews Service Book, Rule of St. Benedict and Oblate handbook. They use St. Tikhon liturgy on Sunday, St. Gregory liturgy during the week. Both are similar to Roman EF but use English language. Based on my observation, most (perhaps all) received the Eucharist both species with unleavened host always on the tongue. I was welcomed me to receive the Eucharist provided I was properly disposed. I politely declined as I had already received Holy Communion several hours earlier at my regular parish.

Thanks for the info, Mick. I always enjoy learning about the EOC. Regarding Holy Communion at an EOC, I also attend sometimes a Western Rite DL at a church of the Clerks Secular of Saint Basil, which is an EOC of Russian origin. There, the Bishop gives me Holy Communion, and according to a document by the USCCB (US Conference of Catholic Bishops), I am not forbidden from receiving at an EOC.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Good grief. Here are some discussions that I quickly came up with by googling:
ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?url=archives/441-On-the-Statement-of-the-Archdiocese.html&serendipity[cview]=linear
ocanews.org/ReplytoMorris4.7.09.html
ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?url=archives/357-Response-to-Fr.-Morris.html&serendipity[cview]=threaded
orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14834.0
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/247533#Post247533
etc,

Is this evidence? Not direct evidence. Do I know that priests involved have not been excommunicated? No. I can only say that discussion of communing non-Orthodox in the Antiochian church is very, very common, and involves including testimony from those who identify as Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox. It is so common that I was taken aback by your certainty in your comments.

Discussions of communing Oriental Orthodox in the Middle East may be common but that’s totally different from communing Roman Catholics here in America.

 

[mick321]

If the priest offered the Eucharist to you knowing you were not Orthodox and his bishop found out about it the priest would very likely be excommunicated and almost certainly dismissed from his duties and defrocked.

In Christ
Joe

In recent months, I have attend liturgies at Orthodox [Western Rite], Ruthenian [Byzantine-Catholic], and Anglican [Anglo-Catholic] Churches. I have been invited to receive holy communion at each one. I have no way to know if any of these offers would be considered scandalous by one segment of the population or another. In each case, I have respectfully declined, accurately stating that I had already received Holy Communion at my home parish.

To be clear, I am Roman Catholic and as such, I am not a candidate for conversion. Regardless of what may be “allowed” by Holy Mother Church - currently or in the future - I am not available to partake in the communion offering of any other faith.

I was warmly welcomed in each of the parishes I visited. I was treated as a fellow Christian and have a standing invitations to return. I was impressed by how much we have in common and I pray for improved relations between all those who call themselves Christian.

With gratitude.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

They are 99.99999% compatible with an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy as well

In an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, we also pray for the Pope, the Patriarch, Metropolitan and Bishop of the Eparchy. In a Roman Mass usually its just the Pope and the diocesan Bishop. But of course the Pope already inherently is the Patriarch of the Roman Church as well as the Supreme Pontiff. That distinction is clear in the East because its different persons.

Eastern Catholics pray for Orthodox Christians and Orthodox faith as well. Of course if you ask the Orthodox, some of them will say Eastern Catholics are not Orthodox Christians. ** Eastern Catholics see themselves as Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome.** Although in my Divine Liturgy book, the term “orthodox” is not capitalized.

Although most Orthodox will not seek Communion in a Catholic Church for many reasons, even in cases of necessity.

This (what I bolded in your post) reminds me of what I learned about the Union of Brest, and St. Josaphat Kuncevyc. He was an Orthodox Christian who wanted to come in communion with Rome.

So, if I understand you correctly, you do pray for those Orthodox Christians who are not in communion with Rome (who reject the Pope), correct?

Regarding Roman Catholic Mass, I learned that it is offered for all inhabitants of the parish, including non-Catholics, and it is offered for people everywhere, again including non-Catholics.

There’s also the Divine Mercy Novena, the devotion that Jesus Christ gave to St. Faustina Kowalska, the Polish/Lithuanian nun in the early 20th century. In the Divine Mercy Novena, we specifically pray for “those who separated themselves from the Church” (people who were called heretics and schismatics in earlier times).

Regarding the practice of EO not in communion with Rome, I remember that at DL at ROCOR, they would pray “for Orthodox Christians everywhere, for Orthodox Christians (parishioners) present at this service, and for those who are missing this service for honorable reasons”. Something like this, but I’m paraphrasing, trying to recall as best as I can. Thus, I have the impression that they at ROCOR (and now the Russian EOC, because ROCOR reunited with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2006) do not pray for non-Orthodox people, but I welcome being corrected if I’m wrong on this.

However at the Western Rite EO DL of the Clerks Secular of Saint Basil, they do specifically pray by name for the EO Patriarchs, AND for the Pope. They list a bunch of Patriarchs, including the Russian, the EP of Constantinople, the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Romanian, and so on, and they do include the Pope of Rome in this list.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I personally know of a Russian Orthodox man who had a vasectomy and confessed this sin to an Orthodox bishop. He was told that it would be best if he repented by getting a vasectomy reversal, but if he could not do that he would have to be banned from communion for 3 years. I’m sure that it is true that not all Orthodox fathers would be this strict in giving penance, but it seems to me that you don’t really abject to any “practice”, rather you abject to the fact that all of Orthodoxy is not united under every word of the Pope. Am I wrong?

My dear friend, John VIII, good to see you!

to the Russians, for their stance against vasectomy and I suppose against all forms of ABC, in this spirit! I just can’t help dreaming of our united Church to come, and our future Russian Holy Father, the Pope!

There was an EO lady earlier on CAF, attending the Greek EOC, she posted in another thread that a particular couple’s spiritual director gave his blessing for the husband to get a vasectomy, because they already had 8 children. And I also remember other EO posters saying that their Churches allow ABC, but I couldn’t give you a list of who permits it, and who forbids it among the EO Churches.

 

[JohnVIII]

Joseph L Varga;7312033:

1. They will pray for Orthodox believers everywhere (but not for those non-Orthodox). By contrast, the Catholic Mass is offered for everybody (for the whole humanity - Catholic and non-Catholic, including those who never even heard of God, and those who reject God).

That is categorically untrue. Where in the world do you get this stuff? With all of the half truths and misinformation you post about Orthodoxy I might look into getting a new source if I were you.

In Christ
Joe

Actually this IS true! Sorry to disagree with you [user]josephdaniel29[/user], but perhaps you don’t realize it. The context is prayers in the Church, not personal prayers at home. Of course Orthodox may (and should) pray for non-Orthodox in their personal prayers, but the prayers in the Church are for those who are in the Church. I’m sure that you have read some of my postings and you probably know that I was Orthodox for 25 years, but now I am in communion with Rome. Of necessity, this also means that I am not any longer in communion with the Orthodox (although I would prefer to be in communion with both). So now that you know that I am not Orthodox (Eucharistically) you tell me, can you put my name in with the list of people that your priest prays for at Church (in the Russian Church it’s called the “Proskomidia”)? If you think that you can, you are mistaken, ask your priest and get back with us about this, would you?

 

[JohnVIII]

Church canons both local and universal prescribe canonical penalties for celebrating sacraments with heretics. Look at the recent case of a Romanian priest being defrocked for concelebrating with a Catholic priest and offering the Eucharist to Catholics.

What would happen to a Catholic priest who offered the Eucharist to a Southern Baptist?

In Christ
Joe

Not all Orthodox Churches follow the Church canons in this regard so strictly. But if in fact those canons were completely followed to the letter the Orthodox Church would not only have to refuse Holy Communion, but even refuse letting non-Orthodox take the alter-bread (prosfora - which most Orthodox allow or even encourage non-Orthodox to take, which they do by economia), The Orthodox Church would also require the non-Orthodox to leave the Church at the point when the Deacons says, “The doors, the doors” so that the non-Orthodox do not communion in prayers with the Orthodox. I in fact have seen this done in a conservative Greek old-calendar Church.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Actually this IS true! Sorry to disagree with you [user]josephdaniel29[/user], but perhaps you don’t realize it. The context is prayers in the Church, not personal prayers at home. Of course Orthodox may (and should) pray for non-Orthodox in their personal prayers, but the prayers in the Church are for those who are in the Church. I’m sure that you have read some of my postings and you probably know that I was Orthodox for 25 years, but now I am in communion with Rome. Of necessity, this also means that I am not any longer in communion with the Orthodox (although I would prefer to be in communion with both). So now that you know that I am not Orthodox (Eucharistically) you tell me, can you put my name in with the list of people that your priest prays for at Church (in the Russian Church it’s called the “Proskomidia”)? If you think that you can, you are mistaken, ask your priest and get back with us about this, would you?

No we do not commemorate non-Orthodox liturgically by name but there are plenty of times when we pray for non-Orthodox during the liturgy.

*For peace of the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord.

For our country, the president, and all those in public service, let us pray to the Lord.

Furthermore we pray for this country, its ruler, (title and name of the ruler), its people, civil authorities and armed forces.

For all that is good and beneficial to our souls, and for peace in the world, let us ask the Lord.*

 

[JohnVIII]

JohnVIII;7317106:

And from what I have read, the Pope today has said that he would not let this practice stand in the way of re-union between Rome & Orthodox.

That would be very surprising to some Catholics! Where did he say that?

I can tell you were I read that, it is not necessarily a proof-positive source, I will admit, but I hope it is true nevertheless. I read it in a booklet titled, “A Guide on Catholic-Orthodox Marriages for Catholic Clergy and Other Pastoral Ministers” (Publication 5-264, USCCB Publishing). Here’s the quote from it (p. 21):

“The Catholic understanding of the enduring
nature of marriage has an effect on one pastoral
situation that should be noted. If the Orthodox
partner had been married before, was divorced,
but has been declared free to marry again by the
Orthodox Church, the Catholic pastor will not
be able to permit the marriage until the case of
the previous marriage has been evaluated by
the Catholic Church. Catholic leaders have
expressed the greatest respect for Orthodox
canon law, and the general councils held in the
West carefully avoided declaring that the
Orthodox practice of allowing divorced
Orthodox Christians to remarry is an obstacle to
full communion. Nevertheless, the Catholic pastor
cannot allow a divorced person, whether
Orthodox or Catholic, to marry without a declaration
from a Catholic marriage tribunal that he
or she is free to do so.”

 

[josephdaniel29]

Not all Orthodox Churches follow the Church canons in this regard so strictly. But if in fact those canons were completely followed to the letter the Orthodox Church would not only have to refuse Holy Communion, but even refuse letting non-Orthodox take the alter-bread (prosfora - which most Orthodox allow or even encourage non-Orthodox to take, which they do by economia), The Orthodox Church would also require the non-Orthodox to leave the Church at the point when the Deacons says, “The doors, the doors” so that the non-Orthodox do not communion in prayers with the Orthodox. I in fact have seen this done in a conservative Greek old-calendar Church.

And it’s still done in the Elder Ephraim monasteries here in the States. The bishops can apply economia where they see fit. The regulations on dismissing non-Orthodox prior to the Eucharistic liturgy served a particular purpose at a particular time in history; to protect the Church from potential interlopers who would report them to the authorities for persecution. Of course what happens during that part of the liturgy is no longer secret and in most of the world there’s no chance of systematic persecutions. Consequently those canons have outlived their usefulness. There’s a heck of a big difference between dispensing with canons that have little relevancy in the modern world and allowing someone who is not part of the body of the Church to receive Holy Communion.

In Christ
Joe

 

[JohnVIII]

No we do not commemorate non-Orthodox liturgically by name but there are plenty of times when we pray for non-Orthodox during the liturgy.

For peace of the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord.

For our country, the president, and all those in public service, let us pray to the Lord.

Furthermore we pray for this country, its ruler, (title and name of the ruler), its people, civil authorities and armed forces.

For all that is good and beneficial to our souls, and for peace in the world, let us ask the Lord.

OK, so you are partly right, and I am partly wrong; however, the prayers you speak of come before the part where the Deacon says, “The doors, the doors”, at which point all non-Orthodox baptized people are supposed to leave so that they do not pray with the faithful.

 

[JohnVIII]

My dear friend, John VIII, good to see you!

to the Russians, for their stance against vasectomy and I suppose against all forms of ABC, in this spirit! I just can’t help dreaming of our united Church to come, and our future Russian Holy Father, the Pope!

There was an EO lady earlier on CAF, attending the Greek EOC, she posted in another thread that a particular couple’s spiritual director gave his blessing for the husband to get a vasectomy, because they already had 8 children. And I also remember other EO posters saying that their Churches allow ABC, but I couldn’t give you a list of who permits it, and who forbids it among the EO Churches.

There’s no need for a list of who permits it and who does not. It is not a universal law in the Orthodox Church, and what I am trying to say is NOR SHOULD IT BE. This is a matter where various degrees of economia need to be applied depending on each individual case, thus the need for each spiritual confessor to have the liberty to do as is best in each case. One of the main reasons for economia is to prevent a greater sin. In the old days people under penance had to leave the Church with the catacumans, but woman under penance did not leave because it was thought that the weak gender would despair too much and might even commit suicide if required to do so. It is my hope that this example shows why strictness is not always the best way to go. In many cases it can lead to damnation, where as a little economia could save a persons soul, if done with prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hesychios]

1. They will pray for the Orthodox Patriarchs, however they will not pray for the Pope. By contrast, we at the Catholic Mass pray for the Pope and Bishops everywhere.

For our enlightenment, please quote the prayers in the RC liturgy on behalf of Orthodox bishops.

1. They will pray for Orthodox believers everywhere (but not for those non-Orthodox).

I see above we set that bit of misinformation to rest above.

By contrast, the Catholic Mass is offered for everybody (for the whole humanity - Catholic and non-Catholic, including those who never even heard of God, and those who reject God).

For our education, please quote the text.

For the benefit of those who may not have attended either Orthodox or Roman Catholic liturgies, I am posting links to both. I cannot claim that these are all inclusive and they are not the only versions but they are interesting, even inspiring, to read.

Roman Catholic - Orthodox

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2003/August/752/Detail/DSC_0100.jpg

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/51...7D7385ACD89D6EE72BEF22B638D99B01E70F2B3269972

 

[dvdjs]

Discussions of communing Oriental Orthodox in the Middle East may be common but that’s totally different from communing Roman Catholics here in America.

If you would take the time to read the posted links you would find that much items on the practice of communing non-Orthodox in the US. There are now, in fact, two examples written on this thread of offering communion to Catholics. Has anyone heard of examples of any excommunications and defrocking - in any of these cases?

I don’t understand why you belabor the point. You overstated the situation with no support for your position. Let’s let this bit of misinformation be set to rest.

However, it would be interesting for you to explain why you appear to think that communing Oriental Orthodox - who are formal heretics according to an ecumenical council - is somehow less of an issue that communing Catholics (maybe even in the Middle East) for who no such conciliar finding exists.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

For our enlightenment, please quote the prayers in the RC liturgy on behalf of Orthodox bishops.
I see above we set that bit of misinformation to rest above.
For our education, please quote the text.

For the benefit of those who may not have attended either Orthodox or Roman Catholic liturgies, I am posting links to both. I cannot claim that these are all inclusive and they are not the only versions but they are interesting, even inspiring, to read.

Also, prayers are offered specifically for Roman Catholics (and Protestants) in the daily Morning Prayers:

"Those who depart from the Orthodox faith, dazzled by destroying heresies, do enlighten by the light of Your holy wisdom…]

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/clinton_communion1.jpg

I don’t know if you intended that as deliberately funny-----but I, at least, found it so.

OT, but not surprising. Clinton was always ALL things to ALL people.

I like you, Hesychios-----you always have interesting, funny, thought-provoking posts.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t know if you intended that as deliberately funny-----but I, at least, found it so.

OT, but not surprising. Clinton was always ALL things to ALL people.

I like you, Hesychios-----you always have interesting, funny, thought-provoking posts.

I just don’t get it?

 

[josephdaniel29]

If you would take the time to read the posted links you would find that much items on the practice of communing non-Orthodox in the US. There are now, in fact, two examples written on this thread of offering communion to Catholics. Has anyone heard of examples of any excommunications and defrocking - in any of these cases?

Are the ruling bishops in question aware of what happened? Perhaps Mick could call the local bishop, inform him that one of his priest has offered him Holy Communion, ask the bishop’s permission and see what the answer is. As to Joseph Vargas, after all the lies, misinformation and downright nasty things he posts about Orthodoxy I don’t believe a word that he types.

 

[JohnVIII]

…As to Joseph Vargas, after all the lies, misinformation and downright nasty things he posts about Orthodoxy I don’t believe a word that he types.

Give the guy a brake, I will admit that he used the word “heresy” way too much and maybe he might have a little bit of an ax to grind, but he’s really a nice guy once you get to know him!

BTY, with regard to the prayers for non-Orthodox within the Orthodox liturgies, would you care to share with us all, if you know, what kind of prayers are offered for the non-Orthodox on the Sunday of Orthodoxy of the Triumph of Orthodoxy, especially when done by a hierarchical service in the Russian Orthodox Church! If you don’t know, or you will not say, and I tell what that is like, then you may say the same “don’t believe a word that he types” about me.