Eastern Orthodox to be received in the Catholic Church

[Boxy]

I have an interesting pilgrimage to the Roman Catholic Church. In 1980 I was baptized at a Protestant Assembly of God church with full emersion in Trinitarian form (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) when I was an adult at the age of 18. Later in 1995 I converted to the Episcopal church and at this point I did not have a certificate of baptism and could not obtain one as the church was not longer in existence. The Episcopal church did not have issue with not having a baptism certificate. Move to 2010 I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church of America which did not require a baptism certificate.
I have attended catholic mass on and off for the past 10 years during this process of coming home to the Catholic Church. I continue to be attracted to the church of Rome.
In visiting with my local priest and expressing my interest he indicated that after I was morally certain of my interest in being received into the church that a simple proclamation of faith at the end of mass and I would be received. The subject of baptism certificate came up and doubt about baptism without certificate came up.
My pilgrimage also includes my wife who is a Greek-Catholic or Uniate from Romania.
Adding complication we were married 10 years ago in a civil ceremony not a church. I need to get this convalidated if I am not mistaken.
My question is should I have to have a conditional baptism to be received in the church? If so when would this be performed? If I can participate in the Eucharist today how does conditional baptism resolve anything? Fairly convoluted and I am certain it will be worked out.
Any qualified comments are welcome.

Best,

Anthony

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have an interesting pilgrimage to the Roman Catholic Church. In 1980 I was baptized at a Protestant Assembly of God church with full emersion in Trinitarian form (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) when I was an adult at the age of 18. Later in 1995 I converted to the Episcopal church and at this point I did not have a certificate of baptism and could not obtain one as the church was not longer in existence. The Episcopal church did not have issue with not having a baptism certificate. Move to 2010 I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church of America which did not require a baptism certificate.
I have attended catholic mass on and off for the past 10 years during this process of coming home to the Catholic Church. I continue to be attracted to the church of Rome.
In visiting with my local priest and expressing my interest he indicated that after I was morally certain of my interest in being received into the church that a simple proclamation of faith at the end of mass and I would be received. The subject of baptism certificate came up and doubt about baptism without certificate came up.
My pilgrimage also includes my wife who is a Greek-Catholic or Uniate from Romania.
Adding complication we were married 10 years ago in a civil ceremony not a church. I need to get this convalidated if I am not mistaken.
My question is should I have to have a conditional baptism to be received in the church? If so when would this be performed? If I can participate in the Eucharist today how does conditional baptism resolve anything? Fairly convoluted and I am certain it will be worked out.
Any qualified comments are welcome.

Best,

Anthony

First, please do not call Eastern Catholics as unitaes. We have ceased to use that term, both Orthodox and Catholics have agreed to end it.

You do not need conditional baptism. The Orthodox baptizes as validly as Catholics. You will need to make a profession of faith. However, because you are Orthodox, you will be ascribed to the equivalent Catholic Church first when you come into communion with the Bishop of Rome. If you are Ukrainian Orthodox, then you will become Ukrainian Catholic even if you are received in the Roman Catholic Church. All you need to do is make a profession of faith.

 

[Wesley7]

It would be best to explain your situation to the parish priest. He would then decide what to do in your case.

 

[Boxy]

It would be best to explain your situation to the parish priest. He would then decide what to do in your case.

Yes. I intend to I simply wanted to convey the situation to this forum with an interest in gaining any similar experience.

 

[Boxy]

I apologize if the term Uniate is taken as a derogative term. My Orthodox Priest seemed to use it to describe the Orthodox churches that affiliated with Rome.

It appears that you did not read my situation. I was not baptized Orthodox.

I will not identify myself with any ethnicity. I am an American.

First, please do not call Eastern Catholics as unitaes. We have ceased to use that term, both Orthodox and Catholics have agreed to end it.

You do not need conditional baptism. The Orthodox baptizes as validly as Catholics. You will need to make a profession of faith. However, because you are Orthodox, you will be ascribed to the equivalent Catholic Church first when you come into communion with the Bishop of Rome. If you are Ukrainian Orthodox, then you will become Ukrainian Catholic even if you are received in the Roman Catholic Church. All you need to do is make a profession of faith.

 

[runningdude]

I will not identify myself with any ethnicity. I am an American.

Ethnicity isn’t the issue , “Ukrainian” is simply the name of a particular catholic church the other poster was giving as an example. Depending which Orthodox church you were received in, you might technically be a member of the equivalent Eastern or Oriental Catholic church when you convert.

Also, as your wife is a Greek-Catholic, you might have to speak to the local Romanian-rite bishop to get your marriage convalidated. It would be best to do this before being received into the Catholic Church, as it will make the transition less complicated (once you become Catholic, you might have to work with two different bishops instead of just your wife’s ).

 

[NewCatholic2011]

My question is should I have to have a conditional baptism to be received in the church?

In my case, which was just this year, the church took my word for it. I just needed to verbally affirm that it was a valid, sacramental baptism according to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church (e.g., Trinitarian, actual water, intent to baptize, etc.) and provide a date for that baptism. At first, I only knew the month and year, but I was later able to get the exact date from the Protestant church even though it was almost forty years ago. Your mileage may vary.

Kind regards,
NC

 

[CB_Catholic]

I apologize if the term Uniate is taken as a derogative term. My Orthodox Priest seemed to use it to describe the Orthodox churches that affiliated with Rome.

It appears that you did not read my situation. I was not baptized Orthodox.

I will not identify myself with any ethnicity. I am an American.

Just a question–how did you get chrismated into the OCA if you have no proof of a valid Baptism? The Catholic priest is probably assuming that if you received chrismation into the Orthodox Church, you are validly baptized, as they would not chrismate someone who was not baptized, that I know of (I’m not Orthodox). This is rather confusing.

 

[RyanBlack]

Just a question–how did you get chrismated into the OCA if you have no proof of a valid Baptism? The Catholic priest is probably assuming that if you received chrismation into the Orthodox Church, you are validly baptized, as they would not chrismate someone who was not baptized, that I know of (I’m not Orthodox). This is rather confusing.

When I was christmated in the OCA, I did not have a baptismal certificate. However, I was able to remember my baptism and that it was done using the Trinitarian formula, so my pastor, with approval from the bishop, found that to be acceptable evidence of my baptism.

 

[Boxy]

I can only speculate that the OCA priest accepted that I was baptised as an adult and can testify that it was a trinitarian submersed baptism.

Just a question–how did you get chrismated into the OCA if you have no proof of a valid Baptism? The Catholic priest is probably assuming that if you received chrismation into the Orthodox Church, you are validly baptized, as they would not chrismate someone who was not baptized, that I know of (I’m not Orthodox). This is rather confusing.

 

[Vico]

…

Timeline:
baptism: Assembly of God 1980
conversion: Episcopal member 1995
marriage: 2001 civil
chrismation: OCA 2010

They key factor for Catholic Church ascription, for adults, is Holy Baptism not Holy Chrismation.

1. Since the Assembly of God baptisms are valid per Catholic requirements, and you were baptised as an adult, you are by canon law ascribed to the Latin Church upon reception in any Catholic Church sui iuris. If you want to switch to an eastern Catholic Church after reception then you would need to petition for that.

Valid Baptisms:
rcan.org/images//worship/07BCNCC.pdf

1. Since you were married in a civil marrage, if you were Episcopal at that time, and it was accepted by them, then it is valid as far as form goes. I believe that if there are no undispensible impediments per Catholic canons and you have the proper consent, it is valid. So you would have to check this with a priest. However, the marriage is not a sacramental marriage for your wife who is Catholic, because a Catholic must marry with approval of the Catholic Church. Convalidation is a solution, or radical sanation. It is a new marriage, and being with an eastern Catholic allows you both or only one to change ascription to the others Church if desired.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I apologize if the term Uniate is taken as a derogative term. My Orthodox Priest seemed to use it to describe the Orthodox churches that affiliated with Rome.

In the past it is how Eastern Catholics are referred to. But about over a decade ago, everyone (Catholic and Orthodox) agreed that uniatism should be stopped, therefore making the term uniates inappropriate.

It appears that you did not read my situation. I was not baptized Orthodox.

If they accepted your previous baptism, I can’t see why the Catholic Church won’t.

I will not identify myself with any ethnicity. I am an American.

First, your statement is contradictory. Unless you don’t consider being an American as an ethnicity.
Second, Eastern Churches aren’t Ethnic Churches. Although they do begin somewhat that way. Imagine in the first few hundred years of the Roman Church, its only Romans who were in there. Until they got the opportunity to expand, whilst the Eastern Churches were sandwiched between an expanding Roman Church and an expanding Muslim influence. But the Ukrainian Church for example, isn’t exclusively for Ukrainians the same way that the Roman Church isn’t exclusively for Romans. Again what I described is the canonical process for Orthodox Christians coming into communion with Rome. Those are not my rules.

 

[runningdude]

Timeline:
baptism: Assembly of God 1980
conversion: Episcopal member 1995
marriage: 2001 civil
chrismation: OCA 2010

They key factor for Catholic Church ascription, for adults, is Holy Baptism not Holy Chrismation.

1. Since the Assembly of God baptisms are valid per Catholic requirements, and you were baptised as an adult, you are by canon law ascribed to the Latin Church upon reception in any Catholic Church sui iuris. If you want to switch to an eastern Catholic Church after reception then you would need to petition for that.

Valid Baptisms:
rcan.org/images//worship/07BCNCC.pdf

Sounds correct

1. Since you were married in a civil marrage, if you were Episcopal at that time, and it was accepted by them, then it is valid as far as form goes. I believe that if there are no undispensible impediments per Catholic canons and you have the proper consent, it is valid. So you would have to check this with a priest. However, the marriage is not a sacramental marriage for your wife who is Catholic, because a Catholic must marry with approval of the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, there is technically no marriage at all , as the wife is obligated to marry before a priest, which she did not do.

Convalidation is a solution, or radical sanation. It is a new marriage…

To elaborate on Vico’s point, a convalidation is a polite term for a simple, but proper marriage ceremony in the church for a couple already living like a married couple (who aren’t yet validly married). Radical sanation is an acknowledgement that the marriage would have been valid if proper form was followed, and sort of like a retroactive dispensation of that form (ie, the obligation to be married in the Church). I think they are only then married from the declaration onward, but not sure.

…and being with an eastern Catholic allows you both or only one to change ascription to the others Church if desired.

Hmm, I wasn’t aware of the ability to change rites during a marriage ceremony. Good to know!

 

[The_Idiot]

I’m not sure if this has actually been mentioned

IF you become Catholic - coming from an Orthodox Parish , even though you have been attending an RC Church for some of the time , **canonically you will be Eastern Catholic **- in this case a Russian Catholic .

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m not sure if this has actually been mentioned

IF you become Catholic - coming from an Orthodox Parish , even though you have been attending an RC Church for some of the time , **canonically you will be Eastern Catholic **- in this case a Russian Catholic .

This is completely the opposite of what Vico has posted.
Perhaps the OP needs to speak to a canon lawyer.

 

[puzzleannie]

I My question is should I have to have a conditional baptism to be received in the church? If so when would this be performed? If I can participate in the Eucharist today how does conditional baptism resolve anything? Fairly convoluted and I am certain it will be worked out.
Any qualified comments are welcome.

Best,

Anthony

most likely not, either the Orthodox church where you were chrismated is satisfied with whatever documenation you provided, or your diocse will know how to obtain the baptismal record from the now-closed church.

you should need only confession, including the history of your participation in other churches, to return to communion. The chrismation I am not sure about, I believe only a profession of faith is necessary but since it has never come up here, your diocese will have the answer. The only reason the profession of faith would be necessary, if it would be your participation in the Episcopal and Orthodox churches. Yes a civil marriage must also be convalidated, and you will need baptismal certificates or other documentation of that. Affidavits from witnesses to your baptism who know the facts is also acceptable. Assuming no previous marriages for either of you this should go smoothly, and most delays will be of the paperwork variety.

I don’t think the matter of changing rite is an issue, you are whatever rite you are baptized into, and if your wife enters the church, she is whatever rite corresponds to her Greek church now. Your children are baptized into your rite not matter who baptizes them. If you want to change rites, again, the diocese has that information.

from my POV of course I would always advise your participation in the adult confirmation program or RCIA even if you don’t need sacraments because of the obvious gaps in your knowledge of Catholic faith and practice over the years.
welcome home

if I am reading this wrong, and your baptism is not in an Eastern rite church, scratch this. yes it is convoluted so correct me if I have it wrong.

 

[ciero]

First, please do not call Eastern Catholics as unitaes. We have ceased to use that term, both Orthodox and Catholics have agreed to end it.

You do not need conditional baptism. The Orthodox baptizes as validly as Catholics. You will need to make a profession of faith. However, because you are Orthodox, you will be ascribed to the equivalent Catholic Church first when you come into communion with the Bishop of Rome. If you are Ukrainian Orthodox, then you will become Ukrainian Catholic even if you are received in the Roman Catholic Church. All you need to do is make a profession of faith.

The Greek Catholics in Romania use the term Uniates for themselves quite proudly…thankyouverymuch.

And if you reread his post he was NOT baptized by the Orthodox.

 

[The_Idiot]

OK - let’s try this situation AGAIN - from scratch and ignoring the situation with his wife she really has no part in this - she is a Greek Catholic }

The facts are

1. was Protestant
2. Converted to Orthodoxy - his Baptism was accepted , and he was Chrismated into Orthodoxy
3. He is now converting to Catholicism

According to all Canons East AND West on entering Catholicism he is ascribed to the Greek Catholic Churches - no option .

He can, in practice, be Recieved by a Latin Catholic Priest in a Latin Catholic Church in a Latin Catholic Diocese but these do NOT alter the facts - on entry to Catholicism he is a Greek Catholic belonging to the Eastern Catholic Churches . And to avoid problems in the future he must ensure that the entry in the Parish where he is received shows that he came from Orthodoxy and is canonically ascribed to the Greek Catholic Church.

He then has the chance of deciding whether he will be attending Church with his wife a Romanian Catholic ] or going to the Ukrainians or Ruthenians . I’m sure that the Hierarchs of the respective Churches would receive him under their Omophorion without problems

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Greek Catholics in Romania use the term Uniates for themselves quite proudly…thankyouverymuch.

I guess kind of like some of the First Nations here in Canada who’ve accepted that they are called Indians.

 

[runningdude]

most likely not, either the Orthodox church where you were chrismated is satisfied with whatever documenation you provided, or your diocse will know how to obtain the baptismal record from the now-closed church.
puzzleannie;8247219:
you should need only confession, including the history of your participation in other churches, to return to communion. The chrismation I am not sure about, I believe only a profession of faith is necessary but since it has never come up here, your diocese will have the answer. The only reason the profession of faith would be necessary, if it would be your participation in the Episcopal and Orthodox churches. Yes a civil marriage must also be convalidated, and you will need baptismal certificates or other documentation of that. Affidavits from witnesses to your baptism who know the facts is also acceptable. Assuming no previous marriages for either of you this should go smoothly, and most delays will be of the paperwork variety.

Since the OP was never a Catholic, it is not a sin for him to participate in other religions. As his participation seems to be leading him to the true and complete Christian Church (the Catholic Church), it means he kept his heart open to the true the whole time, and he need not “confess” his previous affiliations. He need only make a profession of the faith, pledging himself the Catholic Church, and only confess his sins since his last confession with an Orthodox priest.

Complicating the situation, the Orthodox would likely consider reception into the Orthodox church as correcting any defect in his marriage, so the OP may subjectively not guilty of any sin here. He and his wife, though, must correct the marriage from a Catholic standpoint, and live as brother and sister until then. As I said before, it would be best to correct the marriage before reception into the Catholic Church to simplify the process.