Eastern Orthodox view of Catholics?

[Semper_Fi_1]

Not offended at all Thomas. Orthodox Christians tend to be much more realistic than Catholics regarding the serious differences in our respective churches. As a Catholic, I also have problems with the Two Lungs theory as it just smacks of false ecumenism. And I too hate to sound so negative, but before the day is through a few posters will be telling us that our differences are relatively meaningless and that it all can be easily worked out if we set our minds to do it.

the “two lungs” isn’t a theory, it’s a fact based in reality. we are not speaking of the orthodox when we speak of our other lung, but of the eastern rite catholics, our brothers in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Hesychios]

the “two lungs” isn’t a theory, it’s a fact based in reality. we are not speaking of the orthodox when we speak of our other lung, but of the eastern rite catholics, our brothers in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Not that I should care, since I don’t really subscribe to the idea.

But I don’t believe you are correct here. I am almost certain the analogy was used representing the Orthodox as well as Eastern Catholics at least once by JP II. I don’t have a reference right now, so you can just think what you want on this subject. If I bump into anything more I’ll post. I know for sure he has called Orthodox “Sister Churches” which ties into the concept as well.

Anyway, “two lungs” as an idea does a disservice to the many churches of the east, who should not be lumped together as if “you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all”. Likewise the CCEO is inadequate, a big improvement over the days when the “easterns” were expected to function under the Latin Code of Canons, but still quite inadequate.

The fact that many Roman Catholics commonly refer to the the Eastern Churches almost as one is disturbing, that needs to be addressed out of respect for them and their unique traditions. That’s one more reason why the “two lungs” idea is such a poor analogy.

Michael

 

[XtusVictor]

There is no policy to rebuild the western church anew, or replace it.

But I agree, the “two lung” theory is an inadequate analogy and we do not subscribe to it.

Yes, the replacement of the Western Church by the Orthodox is called Western Rite Orthodoxy.

And, since as you say the Orthodox do not recognize Catholicism or Catholic sacraments, you probably support this position.

 

[XtusVictor]

Not that I should care, since I don’t really subscribe to the idea.

But I don’t believe you are correct here. I am almost certain the analogy was used representing the Orthodox as well as Eastern Catholics at least once by JP II. I don’t have a reference right now, so you can just think what you want on this subject. If I bump into anything more I’ll post. I know for sure he has called Orthodox “Sister Churches” which ties into the concept as well.

Anyway, “two lungs” as an idea does a disservice to the many churches of the east, who should not be lumped together as if “you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all”. Likewise the CCEO is inadequate, a big improvement over the days when the “easterns” were expected to function under the Latin Code of Canons, but still quite inadequate.

The fact that many Roman Catholics commonly refer to the the Eastern Churches almost as one is disturbing, that needs to be addressed out of respect for them and their unique traditions. That’s one more reason why the “two lungs” idea is such a poor analogy.

Michael

The Orthodox regularly play this word game. If one notes their lack of unity, they insist that the are one Eastern Orthodox Church. If one treats them like a single church, they protest they are a multiple of churches. It is very similar to talking with Anglicans. When talking with Catholics, they are the Catholic Church of England. When talking with Protestants, they are Reformed. It is not that that the Orthodox want to take a stand but that they want to keep their options open so they can “win” any argument. this ploy is very transparent.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yes, the replacement of the Western Church by the Orthodox is called Western Rite Orthodoxy.

And, since as you say the Orthodox do not recognize Catholicism or Catholic sacraments, you probably support this position.

And why shouldn’t we? The Latin church says we have valid sacraments, but still will take any Orthodox who wants to submit to Rome.

The Western Rite Orthodox come of their own free will, branches from a sick tree to be granted into a healthy one. No one ripped healthy branches off a healthy tree to be aborbed…

 

[XtusVictor]

And why shouldn’t we? The Latin church says we have valid sacraments, but still will take any Orthodox who wants to submit to Rome.

The Western Rite Orthodox come of their own free will, branches from a sick tree to be granted into a healthy one. No one ripped healthy branches off a healthy tree to be aborbed…

Ah the triumphalism and anti-Catholicism of the Orthodox. Orthodoxy proudly teaches prejudice, and you have learned it well. Shame. Shame.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The Orthodox regularly play this word game. If one notes their lack of unity, they insist that the are one Eastern Orthodox Church. If one treats them like a single church, they protest they are a multiple of churches. It is very similar to talking with Anglicans. When talking with Catholics, they are the Catholic Church of England. When talking with Protestants, they are Reformed. It is not that that the Orthodox want to take a stand but that they want to keep their options open so they can “win” any argument. this ploy is very transparent.

If you bring up Unam Sanctum, the Latins say the pope wasn’t speaking infallibly.

If you bring up the Cadavor Synod, they say that popes aren’t impeccable.

If you point out the disarray among the Latins since Vatican II, they say that the popes can’t control everything.

If you ask the Latins what the Orthodox “lack” (or rather, if you listen to what Latins say we lack, as Orthodox aren’t interested in Latin opinions on this and other matters), they say the unity of an infallible leader centralized in one See setting the example.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Ah the triumphalism and anti-Catholicism of the Orthodox. Orthodoxy proudly teaches prejudice, and you have learned it well. Shame. Shame.

Yes, we are quite prejudiced against heresy, and proud of it.

But what are you talking about?

 

[XtusVictor]

If you bring up Unam Sanctum, the Latins say the pope wasn’t speaking infallibly.

If you bring up the Cadavor Synod, they say that popes aren’t impeccable.

If you point out the disarray among the Latins since Vatican II, they say that the popes can’t control everything.

If you ask the Latins what the Orthodox “lack” (or rather, if you listen to what Latins say we lack, as Orthodox aren’t interested in Latin opinions on this and other matters), they say the unity of an infallible leader centralized in one See setting the example.

What a ridiculous argument. No the pope speaks infallibly only under specified conditions. No problem there.

And infallibility does not mean that the pope is free of sin.

And while the Catholic Church was dealing with a huge cultural revolution in the West in the 1960’s (and still are), the Orthodox were cavorting with the KGB. And the Orthodox think they have the solutions to the West. Try healing you own blood soaked past, first.

In the West, the Orthodox are benefiting from the Colin Powel effect. As long as nobody really knows much about them, people can project all kinds of positive images on them. The reality is much much darker.

Confess your own sins and you will be forgiven. Orthodoxy is till presecuting Catholics in the East to this day and have stolen thousands of their churches. Deal with your own sinful past and present. Then, let’s talk.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

And why shouldn’t we? The Latin church says we have valid sacraments, but still will take any Orthodox who wants to submit to Rome.

The Western Rite Orthodox come of their own free will, branches from a sick tree to be granted into a healthy one. No one ripped healthy branches off a healthy tree to be aborbed…

Isa that is the most disgusting thing that I have heard you say on this board yet.

The Eastern and Oriental Catholics came of their own free will. The Orthodox have absolutely no bones to pick with us Latins vis a vis the Eastern & Oriental Churches now that they have done the same thing with the so-called “Western Rite Orthodox”. When will the Western Rite Orthodox be granted their own jurisdiction so they won’t be under the authority of Eastern bishops? When have Westerners ever been under the authority, historically, of Eastern bishops?

 

[jj2011]

Sorry,
The way things are interpreted around here I have every reason to expect somebody would claim we have appointed our own Pope.

People get very creative with the facts sometimes. I only wanted to be very explicit about it.

Welcome to the forum!

It says “Metropolia of Ravenna and Italy,” and “Orthodox Church in Italy.” I don’t see anyone there assuming the title Bishop of Rome.

 

[Thomas_a_Sinner]

What a ridiculous argument. …And while the Catholic Church was dealing with a huge cultural revolution in the West in the 1960’s (and still are), the Orthodox were cavorting with the KGB. And the Orthodox think they have the solutions to the West. Try healing you own blood soaked past, first…

Confess your own sins and you will be forgiven. Orthodoxy is till presecuting Catholics in the East to this day and have stolen thousands of their churches. Deal with your own sinful past and present. Then, let’s talk.

You need to read up on the history of the 20th Century. Does the words **LIBERATION THEOLOGY **mean anything to you? **“Physician heal thy self”!!! **

Liberation Theology is the, or should we say was ( Thanks to the CIA killing off most of its leaders back in the 80’s) Violent Communist movement started by the Catholic Church!! The evils of liberation theology can be directly be linked to the murder of tens of thousands of people in the Western Hemisphere!

As far as Orthodoxy and the KGB are concerned are you insane? How many Orthodox were killed by the Soviets? Millions! Have you ever read anything about life under the Soviets? Have you ever read about the Greek revolution and what the communist did to the Priest and Churches? Give me a break. There is a book titled The Holy New Martyrs of Russia. you need to get a copy and learn about the Martyrdom of the orthodox people by the godless one.

 

[jj2011]

Because I don’t want to go to hell :nope:

My journey of faith has reached a crossroad, and the door to Protestantism seems to be shut behind me (lack of apostolic succession amongst other things). That leaves me with a somewhat limited choice, and all I see is people tossing bits and pieces of decrees and councils at each other, claiming that to be binding og non-binding… and I can’t find up or down in the awful mess.

I was thinking that if the Orthodox view was a bit softer than the Catholic, I would only have to do a Pascal’s Wager… and go Roman.

Sigh the whole reason I started going down the Sacred Traditon road, was that I lost confidence in my own “infallibilty” in such matters :ehh:

• CB

You have my respect inasmuch as you are searching for truth.

It seems to me however that Divine Providence has touched you and in a certain manner laid its hand upon you and made you advert to this reality called Sacred Traditon even if you’re not sure whether Catholics or Orthodox have its fulness.

There is, happily, a large amount we profess in common, such as the first seven Ecumenical Councils, the Liturgy, the Fathers and so on.

Some of the Orthodox members here have already made some reference to the Council of Nicea. That’s an example of a Council which we venerate in common. .

In the Catholic Church we also believe that the bishop of Rome inherits the apostolic primacy from St. Peter; there is some information on that subject, from the Fathers we still venerate in common, here…

globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

I wish you well in your search, and there’s no need to despair; if you persevere, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you, He cannot let you down.

 

[XtusVictor]

You need to read up on the history of the 20th Century. Does the words **LIBERATION THEOLOGY **mean anything to you? **“Physician heal thy self”!!! **

Liberation Theology is the, or should we say was ( Thanks to the CIA killing off most of its leaders back in the 80’s) Violent Communist movement started by the Catholic Church!! The evils of liberation theology can be directly be linked to the murder of tens of thousands of people in the Western Hemisphere!

As far as Orthodoxy and the KGB are concerned are you insane? How many Orthodox were killed by the Soviets? Millions! Have you ever read anything about life under the Soviets? Have you ever read about the Greek revolution and what the communist did to the Priest and Churches? Give me a break. There is a book titled The Holy New Martyrs of Russia. you need to get a copy and learn about the Martyrdom of the orthodox people by the godless one.

The collusion of the Orthodoxy hierarchy with the Soviets no doubt resulted in the murder of millions of Orthodox and Catholics alike.

Liberation Theology has been treated by Rome as the error that it is. This case only shows the essential quality of the Petrine Ministry.

Still, you ignore the ongoing oppression of the Catholics in the East by the Orthodox and the thousands of stolen churches. These crimes need to be redressed, but the hatred of Catholicism by Orthodoxy is deeply ingrained prejudice. What can one do??

 

[Thomas_a_Sinner]

Still, you ignore the ongoing oppression of the Catholics in the East by the Orthodox and the thousands of stolen churches. These crimes need to be redressed, but the hatred of Catholicism by Orthodoxy is deeply ingrained prejudice. What can one do??

Tell you what I’m willing to do.
Give us back Sicily and I’ll give you back all of your churches in the Ukraine.
Thomas a sinner.

 

[XtusVictor]

Tell you what I’m willing to do.
Give us back Sicily and I’ll give you back all of your churches in the Ukraine.
Thomas a sinner.

Sicily is a great example of Eastern expansionism and the forced use of the Eastern Rite in the West in the Byzantine period. Even with past latinizations, which were wrong, the Latin Rite was never forced on the East.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

What a ridiculous argument. No the pope speaks infallibly only under specified conditions. No problem there.

Just to nail down when those “specified conditions” apply. Is Humanae Vitae infallible? You get a whole spectrum of opinion.

And infallibility does not mean that the pope is free of sin.

yes, but the assent to him that Lumen Gentium demands, requires that we act like he is.

And while the Catholic Church was dealing with a huge cultural revolution in the West in the 1960’s (and still are), the Orthodox were cavorting with the KGB. And the Orthodox think they have the solutions to the West. Try healing you own blood soaked past, first.

Franco, Mussolini (Vatican concordant, no?), Petain, DollfuB,…I’d tread lightly.

In the West, the Orthodox are benefiting from the Colin Powel effect. As long as nobody really knows much about them, people can project all kinds of positive images on them. The reality is much much darker.

Thank you Dan Brown.

Confess your own sins and you will be forgiven.

Just returned from doing so.

Orthodoxy is till presecuting Catholics in the East to this day and have stolen thousands of their churches.

Do you mean retaken the Churches that the Crusaders, Polish and Austrian crowns took from their subject Orthodox?

I personally know people in Slovakia who serve DL on the lawn of the churches taken from them.

Also:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral%2C_Warsaw

St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On May 20, 1912 the ceremonial dedication of the Cathedral to Alexander Nevsky was held, where Archbishop Nicholas of Warsaw said:

“The creators of this cathedral had nothing hostile in their thoughts towards the unorthodoxy that surrounds us: coercion is not in the nature of the Eastern Orthodox Church”…

During World War I, the Russians evacuated Warsaw in August 1915. They took with them most of the Orthodox inhabitants and clergy, as well as many precious works of art from the cathedral. During the German occupation in 1915–1918 the cathedral was used by the German military as a garrison church and renamed for St Henry…

There were proposals to make it into a Catholic church. Among other proposals, the famous Polish writer Stefan Żeromski argued that the Cathedral might be the best place for the Museum of the Martyrology of Polish people…

In the end, despite a few protests, it was demolished in 1924–1926, along with all but two Orthodox churches in Warsaw. Adding to the political and nation-wide character to the destruction of the largest Orthodox Cathedral in interwar Poland, the Warsaw magistrate issued public bonds to “give a chance to every Pole to take part in the action.” The bonds were backed by the value of the materials recovered during demolition.[3]

Occasional attempts to save the cathedral continued even while demolition was underway. For example, in the summer of 1924 an Orthodox member of the Polish Senate, Vyacheslav Bogdanovich, gave a passionate speech in favour of preserving the cathedral.[6] However, overall such voices were few and far between. The proponents of its preservation in its original form were contemptuously called the “Cathedralists”, thus implicitly accusing them of an underlying lack of patriotism…

What Warsaw got instead was this:

Joseph Stalin Palace of Culture and Science

Deal with your own sinful past and present. Then, let’s talk.

I don’t know if that’s an invitation or a threat.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa that is the most disgusting thing that I have heard you say on this board yet.

The Eastern and Oriental Catholics came of their own free will.

Sorry, but not only do I know the ancient history of the uniates, but also the personal history: The priest who founded the parish where I was received (his fifth), was a Ruthenian priest. His bishop specifically told him, when he got his credentials to come to America, NOT to go to the Latin bishop, but the Orthodox bishop. “Here [Austro-Hungary],” he said, “we have to be Catholic. There you don’t.”

Besides those in the Middle East (muslim pressure), none of the “unions” did not involve coercion from a Latin crown.

The Orthodox have absolutely no bones to pick with us Latins vis a vis the Eastern & Oriental Churches now that they have done the same thing with the so-called “Western Rite Orthodox”.

Except that the WRO has no question about its freedom in entering the union.

And its rites have been modified to reflect Orthodox, and not heterodox ideas. No opitional filioque compromise. Orthodoxy, full strength.

When will the Western Rite Orthodox be granted their own jurisdiction so they won’t be under the authority of Eastern bishops?

This I will grant you, I am asking the same thing. Part of the problem, is the scattered distribution of the parishes.

And here, the WRO are no different than your AUs (Anglican Use).

When have Westerners ever been under the authority, historically, of Eastern bishops?

Uh, when they were in the East. Remember those Western Rite churches under EP Celurarius. Mt. Athos also had a Western Monastery until around 1204.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Sicily is a great example of Eastern expansionism and the forced use of the Eastern Rite in the West in the Byzantine period. Even with past latinizations, which were wrong, the Latin Rite was never forced on the East.

1. Constantinople was the capital of the Roman empire.
2. Sicily was a Roman province.
3. Siciliy and Southern Italy had a majority of Greeks (Greek is still spoken in isolated pockets), before the ancient Romans got there (and named it “Magna Graecia” Greater Greece).
4. Suppression of the Eastern Rite in these areas by the normans and their popes at Rome, prompted EP Celurarius to close Western parishes (expats) in the capital, leading to 1054.
5. You should read the history of the Inquisition on the Church of India.

 

[XtusVictor]

1. Constantinople was the capital of the Roman empire.
2. Sicily was a Roman province.
3. Siciliy and Southern Italy had a majority of Greeks (Greek is still spoken in isolated pockets), before the ancient Romans got there (and named it “Magna Graecia” Greater Greece).
4. Suppression of the Eastern Rite in these areas by the normans and their popes at Rome, prompted EP Celurarius to close Western parishes (expats) in the capital, leading to 1054.
5. You should read the history of the Inquisition on the Church of India.

Interesting. Is there anyone in Italy that considers themselves oppressed by Rome? I assure you there are many Catholics today oppressed by the Orthodox.

I know plenty of Eastern Catholics–UGCC-- here in the US and none of them is coerced. They love being Catholic.