Eastern Orthodox view of Catholics?

[Isa_Almisry]

Interesting. Is there anyone in Italy that considers themselves oppressed by Rome? I assure you there are many Catholics today oppressed by the Orthodox.

I know plenty of Eastern Catholics–UGCC-- here in the US and none of them is coerced. They love being Catholic.

yes, so much so that the core of the Orthodox Church in America are uniates who returned to Orthodoxy. Archbishop Ireland is the father of Orthodoxy in this country.

As I stated, I know people personally, whose Churches were taken from them in Czechoslovakia. Btw, the Church is mainly uniate returnees, and that core is those who returned in the intrawar period, not under the communists.The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church (Czechoslovak Orthodox Church up to 1993) traces its roots to the Church of the Czech Brethren of the 1920s.Almost all of the members of the Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church were 20th-century converts from Roman Catholicism or Greek-Catholicism. The faithful included Czechs, Moravians, Slovaks and back then Rusyns (Carpatho-Ukraine was a part of Czechoslovakia up to 1945) who felt disenfrachised by the Latin priests,their ranks quickly grew from almost no Eastern Orthodox faithful to 145,000 by the 1931 census (including some 120,000 Ruthenes in Carpatho-Ukraine).

In 1942, the head of the church, Bishop Gorazd, was arrested, tried, tortured and executed by the Nazis. His offense was harboring the conspirators who had assassinated Nazi official Reinhard Heydrich. This involvement caused harsh reprisals for Eastern Orthodox faithful in German-held Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. Some 256 Orthodox priests and prominent believers were either executed or deported to slave labor camps in the Third Reich.

Following the end of the war, in 1945, the Czechoslovak Orthodox Church held a memorial service for Bishop Gorazd. Prominent citizens of Prague of all faiths paid their respects to the murdered cleric in the Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Cyril and Methodius. He is now known as Saint Gorazd, recognized as a martyr by Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

I can name other areas, but you get the point. The Latins aren’t as benign Vatican II would spin.

As for Italy, having eliminated them, there are no native Orthodox to oppress now, is there? Latinization was a “success.”

 

[XtusVictor]

yes, so much so that the core of the Orthodox Church in America are uniates who returned to Orthodoxy. Archbishop Ireland is the father of Orthodoxy in this country.

As I stated, I know people personally, whose Churches were taken from them in Czechoslovakia. Btw, the Church is mainly uniate returnees, and that core is those who returned in the intrawar period, not under the communists.The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church (Czechoslovak Orthodox Church up to 1993) traces its roots to the Church of the Czech Brethren of the 1920s.Almost all of the members of the Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church were 20th-century converts from Roman Catholicism or Greek-Catholicism. The faithful included Czechs, Moravians, Slovaks and back then Rusyns (Carpatho-Ukraine was a part of Czechoslovakia up to 1945) who felt disenfrachised by the Latin priests,their ranks quickly grew from almost no Eastern Orthodox faithful to 145,000 by the 1931 census (including some 120,000 Ruthenes in Carpatho-Ukraine).

In 1942, the head of the church, Bishop Gorazd, was arrested, tried, tortured and executed by the Nazis. His offense was harboring the conspirators who had assassinated Nazi official Reinhard Heydrich. This involvement caused harsh reprisals for Eastern Orthodox faithful in German-held Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. Some 256 Orthodox priests and prominent believers were either executed or deported to slave labor camps in the Third Reich.

Following the end of the war, in 1945, the Czechoslovak Orthodox Church held a memorial service for Bishop Gorazd. Prominent citizens of Prague of all faiths paid their respects to the murdered cleric in the Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Cyril and Methodius. He is now known as Saint Gorazd, recognized as a martyr by Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

I can name other areas, but you get the point. The Latins aren’t as benign Vatican II would spin.

As for Italy, having eliminated them, there are no native Orthodox to oppress now, is there? Latinization was a “success.”

You are clearly an expert at presenting one-sided history. And what of the current oppression of Catholics in Russia?

 

[Hesychios]

You are clearly an expert at presenting one-sided history. And what of the current oppression of Catholics in Russia?

Your turn, tell us about them…

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, the replacement of the Western Church by the Orthodox is called Western Rite Orthodoxy.

And, since as you say the Orthodox do not recognize Catholicism or Catholic sacraments, you probably support this position.

You don’t know me and you don’t speak for me.
*
Michael*

 

[XtusVictor]

Your turn, tell us about them…

The Orthodox have thousands of stolen church properties that belong to the Catholic Church, especially in the Ukraine. this is a blatant moral evil. And yet, you refuse to even acknowledge this fact.

 

[Hesychios]

…Even with past latinizations, which were wrong, the Latin Rite was never forced on the East.

You are so wrong on this point.

I noticed that you make up a lot of statements, and when shown to be wrong, move right on to another outrageous claim.

Michael

 

[XtusVictor]

You are so wrong on this point.

I noticed that you make up a lot of statements, and when shown to be wrong, move right on to another outrageous claim.

Michael

Yes and the liturgies in Ravenna and Venice were also hellenized by the conquering Byzantines.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yes and the liturgies in Ravenna and Venice were also hellenized by the conquering Byzantines.

Kyrie eleison?

Btw, the mass at Rome until Pope Victor was in Greek. Perhaps we should blame the “Byzantines” for that too.

Conquering? Constantinople was the capital of the empire. Or are you legitimizing the Arians Germans who invaded?

Any specifics on these Hellenizations?

 

[XtusVictor]

Kyrie eleison?

Btw, the mass at Rome until Pope Victor was in Greek. Perhaps we should blame the “Byzantines” for that too.

Conquering? Constantinople was the capital of the empire. Or are you legitimizing the Arians Germans who invaded?

Any specifics on these Hellenizations?

Justinian I reconquered the West and ruled it from the East around 540. Though fortunes varied, the East maintained control of Venice and Ravenna for about two centuries. In that period, hellenization was common including the introduction of the iconostasis, though I am not sure about the liturgical texts. Architectually, the East clearly imposed itself on western sanctuaries.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I was wondering what the EO opinion on Catholics is.

In Catholic theology/ecclesiology, it is necessary to be in communion with Rome; in fundamentalist theology, you may not be in communion with Rome. But what say the Easterners?

Are Catholics saved? Are they Church?

And aren’t the people in the West *rightfully *under papal jurisdiction? I mean, there may be disagreement to the popes primacy, but he is still bishop and (i suppose) patriarch of the West, isn’t he?

• CB

ISTM the EO view of those plaguey Latins can be summed up in two words - “Get lost” ​

(If your post is for EO consumption only - ignore this )

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Justinian I reconquered the West and ruled it from the East around 540. Though fortunes varied, the East maintained control of Venice and Ravenna for about two centuries. In that period, hellenization was common including the introduction of the iconostasis, though I am not sure about the liturgical texts. Architectually, the East clearly imposed itself on western sanctuaries.

The iconostasis as we know it today, didn’t come into being until the restoration of the icons (it grew spontaneously, from the faceful placing the icons they had hidden on the communion rail). That wouldn’t be until 842.

St. Mark’s in Venice is Eastern style, but was built after 1054.

And Ravenna also has a number of such churches, which all predate 540, e.g. San Vitale, which inspired Justinian’s church to his patron saints Sergius and Bacchus (and hence Hagia Sophia), and Charlemagne’s royal chapel at Aachen.

I don’t know of any specific Eastern liturgical texts borrowed, except those at the foundation of the Church in the West.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Suppression of the Eastern Rite in these areas by the normans and their popes at Rome, prompted EP Celurarius to close Western parishes (expats) in the capital, leading to 1054.

As you surely know, the Popes were as threatened by the Normans as were the Greeks in southern Italy. Before the schism, indeed, the Pope asked the Byzantines for help against the Normans, offering to join with the Byzantine forces to drive the Normans out of southern Italy. This was refused. Though advised against it by the Germans, the Pope did undertake to drive the Normans out, but failed in the attempt.

Michael Cerularius might well have been motivated by the Pope’s attempt to save both the Greeks of southern Italy and the Italians of Rome from the Normans. But that’s not how he put it when he closed all the Latin churches in Constantinople. The reasons he gave when he did it were Latin practices of clerical celibacy, the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist and the filioque.

In any event, the Byzantines lost southern Italy to the Normans, and nearly lost their whole empire in the process. The Pope ultimately asked the German emperor for protection against the Normans, which was given.

Notwithstanding that the Normans were recent converts from Viking paganism to Catholicism (by about a hundred years) they were hardly agents of the Pope in the early and mid eleventh century when all of this took place. Certainly, it ought to be regarded as scandalous that Catholics warred on other Catholics, just as it ought to be regarded as scandalous that the Orthodox Bulgarians later warred on Byzantium and vice versa.

But it also needs to be remembered that the Norman invasion of southern Italy, and the Pope’s actions as well as Cerularius’ closing of the Latin churches, all occurred before the East/West schism, and the Normans were therefore of the same Church as Michael Cerularius and the Pope when they invaded Southern Italy. So, if Cerularius really was motivated by the Norman invasion and the Papal attempt to drive the Normans out, it was a purely political thing, and he put a theological varnish on a political act in closing the Latin churches. He was a political leader before he was a Patriarch. His true motivations in closing the Latin churches, however, were known only to him and to God.

 

[Fuerza]

Tell you what I’m willing to do.
Give us back Sicily and I’ll give you back all of your churches in the Ukraine.
Thomas a sinner.

The Sicilians don’t want to "return’ to the East.

Nuautri semu gia unna vulemu essiri, cu a chiesa Romana.

 

[siciliano]

Avi ragguni…sunno sicilianu e ti dico che i sicilani sunnu centu pi centu cattolico e un’ni vogghianu cangiari a ortodossi.

 

[siciliano]

But really, all this fuss? I’m clearly not historically literate as those members who keep on throwing dates and what not at each other to defend their points of view. The reality is that we lay people are the pawns of the hierarchies in BOTH churches.
I say stop it and grow up. Christ is deeply offended at the split that exists in the one PILGRIM church. And it’s on the shoulders of those who lead both churches to iron out the differences and unite. And of course we in the trenches have to pray and pray very hard.

We in the 21st century are in a precarious position. Europe has effectively banished God from it’s constitution. Traditional marriage and family is under attack. Islam is spreading. America’s moral landscape is in the dumps.Unborn babies are being murdered. The possibility of cloning humans is becoming dangerously real. You can’t say Merry Christmas. You can’t say God bless you. You just can’t say God without being ridiculed (of course Christ did say that we would be hated on account of him so that is no surprise). I mean really, get off the freakin pot and get to business!

BOTH churches need to work together to keep the faith alive, and declare the TRUTH which is JESUS CHRIST, They need to stand firm TOGETHER against the forces of the secular world and declare what is right at all costs. Our souls and the world depend on it. What we don’t need are persnicketty (like that word???) people saying that their church is better than our church and vice versa. GET IT?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Avi ragguni…sunno sicilianu e ti dico che i sicilani sunnu centu pi centu cattolico e un’ni vogghianu cangiari a ortodossi.

In Inglese, per piaciere.

 

[siciliano]

I was just responding to Fuerza’s statement in Sicilian Dialect. I said he was right…Sicilians don’t want to change and go over to the Orthodox Church. We’re quite content as Catholics. Va bene?

 

[Fuerza]

Avi ragguni…sunno sicilianu e ti dico che i sicilani sunnu centu pi centu cattolico e un’ni vogghianu cangiari a ortodossi.

Beddu!

 

[Frank_J]

Hi Fuerza,

You don’t talk for all Sicilians. I’m Sicilian and I’m also Orthodox Christian. I made the choice to revert back to the true Church for the Sicilian poeple.

I took offence to your remark not wanting to join. In myChurch, half the parish is made up of Italians. The Priest is Italian and the Acolytes are Italain too.

Always remember you talk for yourself, you talk for no one else. I’m very happy being Orthodox Christian and deeply proud of it.

It has been 7 years ago today. I picked Jan. 7,2001 as the date to become Orthodox for two reason one was my Sicilian grandmothers’ birthday and second it was Orthodox Christmas.

Have a great day.

Frank J.

 

[Fuerza]

Hi Fuerza,

You don’t talk for all Sicilians. I’m Sicilian and I’m also Orthodox Christian. I made the choice to revert back to the true Church for the Sicilian poeple.

I took offence to your remark not wanting to join. In myChurch, half the parish is made up of Italians. The Priest is Italian and the Acolytes are Italain too.

Always remember you talk for yourself, you talk for no one else. I’m very happy being Orthodox Christian and deeply proud of it.

It has been 7 years ago today. I picked Jan. 7,2001 as the date to become Orthodox for two reason one was my Sicilian grandmothers’ birthday and second it was Orthodox Christmas.

Have a great day.

Frank J.

I was even more offended by the previous poster’s insinuation that Sicilians should be traded “back” to the Orthodox like a commodity, without taking into account how individual Sicilians feel. I realize that it wasn’t a totally serious comment, but still found it offensive. Of course now, since you found my comment so insulting, you will obviously be publicly criticizing that post as well, correct?

My post was not intended to offend you, but at the same time I will not apologize for stating what I believe to be true. Are there Sicilian Orthodox? Sure there are. But does that mean all or even most Sicilians deep down desire to convert? I doubt it.