Eastern Orthodox-Western Rite

[JW55]

I was curious if any readers of this forum had any experience or comments in regard to the Eastern Orthodox-Western Rite Churches. I have been doing some reading about them, but know very little. I have no first hand knowledge, so I can offer neither pro or con comments. From what I gather they are rites within both the ROCOR and Antiochians segments of the Eastern Otrhodox Church( Please correct me if I am wrong). From what I gather they are both small in number of churches and membership. They appear to be largely from former Roman Catholics and Anglicans who were looking to recapture elements of the Tridentite Mass. Supposedly they follow a liturgy that is similar to what was used in the west before 1054. They were acknowledged by Saint John Maximovitch, a modern day Orthodox saint. Thier liturgies follow the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikon or St. Gregory with reference to the filioque removed and inserts of Byzantine epiclesis. Anyway if anyone belongs to this rite, has attended, or has observations about it, I would be interested in hearing their comments.

Thanks.

 

[searn77]

I’ve been to a few western rite liturgies of the Rite of St. Gregory. The two western rite liturgies done in the Antiochian Archdiocese are the Liturgy of St. Gregory, a modified version of the Tridentine mass, and the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, a modified version of the 1928 Anglican BCP. Occasionally you’ll hear about ROCOR doing a Sarum rite liturgy here and there. I’m not exactly sure what liturgy ROCOR does in their western rite but the only western rite Orthodox monastery happens to be ROCOR. Here’s their website:
christminster.org/

I don’t think ROCOR has that many western rite parishes but I know they have a bi-ritual one in Oklahoma. Also I think the Serbians may have a western rite (at least this is what I’ve heard). The Polish National Catholic Church (the one actually in Poland) in 1923 were accepted into the western rite of Orthodoxy (according to a few websites I’ve read) but they got wiped out during WWII and later came back I guess as an Old Catholic Church as they previously were. And I’ve heard a few things about the French Orthodox. They were with ROCOR before ROCOR officially united to the Orthodox Church. They then followed ROCOR into the Orthodox Church and later left it. I’m really not sure what the story is with the French but I know it’s confusing.

Here’s the western rite part of the Antiochian website:
antiochian.org/western-rite

Here’s a two part video explaining the western rite:
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4436222914030156551&ei=OlClS6ycN4OuqwL0_ay3BA&q=western+rite+Orthodox#

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815360976779751682&ei=OlClS6ycN4OuqwL0_ay3BA&q=western+rite+Orthodox#

Also, here’s a book (I’m pretty sure it’s by the same priest that narrated those videos) about the western rite in the Orthodox Church:
books.google.com/books?id=NbFwnW1Fr1IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=western+rite+Orthodox&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Here’s a press for western rite Orthodox liturgical items:
stlukespriory.com/

And another western rite Orthodox press:
andrewespress.com/

Also here’s a website (I think it’s linked to the ROCOR western rite monastery) that has some info on the western rite:
orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/

You can find out a lot by checking out various WR Antiochian parish websites too. And I also know there are some Old-Calendarist Orthodox western rite parishes in America too. Here are some last websites that I have found to be helpful when looking into the western rite:
westernorthodox.com/

westernorthodox.blogspot.com/

westernritecritic.wordpress.com/

westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com/

 

[DorianGregorian]

I understand that an Orthodox anaphora replaces the Western words of institution at a Western Rite Mass?

 

[Diamantina]

I was in the Orthodox Church, mostly in the Serbian jurisdiction, from 1990 to 2003. From the mid-1990s to 2003 I attended St. Michael Orthodox Church in Whittier, CA, a Western Rite parish in the Antiochian Archdiocese that uses the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, about once a month. Here is their website:

stmichaelwhittier.org

The first time that I attended, I was taken aback by the statues and the organ music, which I was not used to in an Orthodox parish. (St. Michael’s also has some icons.) The hymns are wonderful: the parishioners (most of them converts from evangelical Protestantism, though the nucleus of the parish was originally Anglican of some sort) very kind. The Liturgy and the church building has the overall air of very High Church Anglicanism with a few Eastern Orthodox accretions.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for St. Michael’s. It is an exemplar of its type, I think. It was (is?) a fairly small parish, with a lot of congregational singing, potluck lunches after Sunday Divine Liturgy, a much-used library and a busy bookstore/gift shop. One disadvantage to the parish (as with many Orthodox parishes) is that it is a commuter parish: as far as I know, nobody lives in the immediate neighborhood (a community college and a cemetery), and one must travel two or three miles in any direction to get to residential neighborhoods. It would be nice if the Catholic parishes I am acquainted with were smaller and more personal like St. Michael’s, with a better sense of liturgy. Heck, I’d very seriously consider joining a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, if I were ever to live within five miles of one. But if I were to live within five miles of a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, I’d probably also live within five miles of a Melkite or Byzantine Catholic parish. Oh, what a decision!

PS: The epiclesis at an Orthodox Western Rite Divine Liturgy comes immediately after the Words of Institution – “And make this bread the body of Thy Christ, and make that which is in this cup, the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen.” I still, after almost seven years that I reverted to Catholicism, wonder why the epiclesis in the Ordus Novo is before the Words of Institution.

 

[DorianGregorian]

PS: The epiclesis at an Orthodox Western Rite Divine Liturgy comes immediately after the Words of Institution – “And make this bread the body of Thy Christ, and make that which is in this cup, the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen.” I still, after almost seven years that I reverted to Catholicism, wonder why the epiclesis in the Ordus Novo is before the Words of Institution.

I believe that’s because in Eastern Theology the Epiclesis brings about the Real Presence, while in Western Theology the Words of Institution bring about the Real Presence.

 

[BernadetteM]

I was in the Orthodox Church, mostly in the Serbian jurisdiction, from 1990 to 2003. From the mid-1990s to 2003 I attended St. Michael Orthodox Church in Whittier, CA, a Western Rite parish in the Antiochian Archdiocese that uses the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, about once a month. Here is their website:

stmichaelwhittier.org

The first time that I attended, I was taken aback by the statues and the organ music, which I was not used to in an Orthodox parish. (St. Michael’s also has some icons.) The hymns are wonderful: the parishioners (most of them converts from evangelical Protestantism, though the nucleus of the parish was originally Anglican of some sort) very kind. The Liturgy and the church building has the overall air of very High Church Anglicanism with a few Eastern Orthodox accretions.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for St. Michael’s. It is an exemplar of its type, I think. It was (is?) a fairly small parish, with a lot of congregational singing, potluck lunches after Sunday Divine Liturgy, a much-used library and a busy bookstore/gift shop. One disadvantage to the parish (as with many Orthodox parishes) is that it is a commuter parish: as far as I know, nobody lives in the immediate neighborhood (a community college and a cemetery), and one must travel two or three miles in any direction to get to residential neighborhoods. It would be nice if the Catholic parishes I am acquainted with were smaller and more personal like St. Michael’s, with a better sense of liturgy. Heck, I’d very seriously consider joining a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, if I were ever to live within five miles of one. But if I were to live within five miles of a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, I’d probably also live within five miles of a Melkite or Byzantine Catholic parish. Oh, what a decision!

PS: The epiclesis at an Orthodox Western Rite Divine Liturgy comes immediately after the Words of Institution – “And make this bread the body of Thy Christ, and make that which is in this cup, the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen.” I still, after almost seven years that I reverted to Catholicism, wonder why the epiclesis in the Ordus Novo is before the Words of Institution.

I knew the founder, Fr. Trigg, of St. Michaels. He was an assistant priest at my old Anglo Catholic parish St. Mary of the Angels. When the parish split he and some of the members became Orthodox. Some stayed at St. Marys (hopefully they will become part of the ordinariate, but I have my doubts) and the rest of us became Catholic. I too pray for an Anglican Use parish, even if it is a little far. When I attended St. Marys it was a long way from where I lived.

I wonder if any of the members of St. Michaels are some of the ones I knew years ago.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Going to the East to experience the West, the West for the East. This is like flying to Boston Garden to catch the Lakers and Staples Center to catch the Celts!

 

[Diamantina]

I believe that’s because in Eastern Theology the Epiclesis brings about the Real Presence, while in Western Theology the Words of Institution bring about the Real Presence.

Your explanation sounds plausible. But to me (just speaking personally as a laywoman) it makes more sense that the Epiclesis brings about the Real Presence. I guess it’s because I received the bulk of my theological training (such as it was) when I was Orthodox.

You may be interested that I also do not say the Filioque in the Nicene Creed as well. It doesn’t matter to me whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only or from the Father and the Son: I just don’t think that the Western Church had the right to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed. It is interesting that Eastern Catholic Churches do not add the Filioque, n’est-ce pas?

Bernadette: I suppose you know that Father Trigg died in 2007: he was only 67. You might want to go on the St. Michael’s website and look at the photos to see if you recognize anybody.

 

[BernadetteM]

Your explanation sounds plausible. But to me (just speaking personally as a laywoman) it makes more sense that the Epiclesis brings about the Real Presence. I guess it’s because I received the bulk of my theological training (such as it was) when I was Orthodox.

You may be interested that I also do not say the Filioque in the Nicene Creed as well. It doesn’t matter to me whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only or from the Father and the Son: I just don’t think that the Western Church had the right to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed. It is interesting that Eastern Catholic Churches do not add the Filioque, n’est-ce pas?

Bernadette: I suppose you know that Father Trigg died in 2007: he was only 67. You might want to go on the St. Michael’s website and look at the photos to see if you recognize anybody.

Yes I was aware that he passed away. I attended the first church once or twice several years ago, but have only driven by the newer building. Thanks for the information.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[searn77]

I was wrong. There are actually a few canonical western rite monasteries. There’s Christminster in Canada that I mentioned, Holyrood Hermitage in Jacksonville, Florida, and Saint Petroc Monastery in Australia.

 

[JW55]

Thanks for all the valuable comments and links provided. It has given me a better understanding and appreciation of the orthodox western rite.

 

[onacloudyday]

I was curious if any readers of this forum had any experience or comments in regard to the Eastern Orthodox-Western Rite Churches. I have been doing some reading about them, but know very little. I have no first hand knowledge, so I can offer neither pro or con comments. From what I gather they are rites within both the ROCOR and Antiochians segments of the Eastern Otrhodox Church( Please correct me if I am wrong). From what I gather they are both small in number of churches and membership. They appear to be largely from former Roman Catholics and Anglicans who were looking to recapture elements of the Tridentite Mass. Supposedly they follow a liturgy that is similar to what was used in the west before 1054. They were acknowledged by Saint John Maximovitch, a modern day Orthodox saint. Thier liturgies follow the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikon or St. Gregory with reference to the filioque removed and inserts of Byzantine epiclesis. Anyway if anyone belongs to this rite, has attended, or has observations about it, I would be interested in hearing their comments.

Thanks.

western orthodox have orthodox rosary called the Rule of the Theotokos a tradition from St. Seraphim of Sarov.

15 meditations on her life are 1 her nativity 2 her presentation to the temple 3 annunciation to her 4 her visit to her distant cousin 5 her giving birth to Jesus 6 her presenting Jesus for purification rite 7 her flight to egypt 8 her missing Jesus when he stayed in temple 9 she request first miracle at wedding 10 she stood at the cross 11 her Son resurrected 12 she watch her Son ascend 13 Holy Spirit decends on her and apostles 14 dormition of the Theotokos 15 Theotokos is queen of heaven now

how to do the Rule of the Theotokos is announce the meditation and pray “O Theotokos, rejoice, O Virgin Mary full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls!” 10 times, then pray “Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Please give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.” Then pray “Please open the portal of compassion unto us, O Most Blessed Theotokos; for hoping in you, let us succeed, we pray; through you may we be delivered from all adversities, for you are the salvation of the Christian race.” then announce the next meditation until you do all 15 meditations.

if there is more i dont know it. i dont know western orthodox.

 

[searn77]

western orthodox have orthodox rosary called the Rule of the Theotokos a tradition from St. Seraphim of Sarov.

15 meditations on her life are 1 her nativity 2 her presentation to the temple 3 annunciation to her 4 her visit to her distant cousin 5 her giving birth to Jesus 6 her presenting Jesus for purification rite 7 her flight to egypt 8 her missing Jesus when he stayed in temple 9 she request first miracle at wedding 10 she stood at the cross 11 her Son resurrected 12 she watch her Son ascend 13 Holy Spirit decends on her and apostles 14 dormition of the Theotokos 15 Theotokos is queen of heaven now

how to do the Rule of the Theotokos is announce the meditation and pray “O Theotokos, rejoice, O Virgin Mary full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls!” 10 times, then pray “Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Please give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.” Then pray “Please open the portal of compassion unto us, O Most Blessed Theotokos; for hoping in you, let us succeed, we pray; through you may we be delivered from all adversities, for you are the salvation of the Christian race.” then announce the next meditation until you do all 15 meditations.

if there is more i dont know it. i dont know western orthodox.

In my western Orthodox prayer book (called the St. Ambrose Prayerbook), it actually just lists the traditional 15 mystery rosary that the Catholics did before they added the newest set of mysteries. This is also how I have heard most Orthodox who pray the Rosary actually pray it. I’m unaware of how many people do the whole 15 mystery Rule of the Theotokos.

 

[onacloudyday]

In my western Orthodox prayer book (called the St. Ambrose Prayerbook), it actually just lists the traditional 15 mystery rosary that the Catholics did before they added the newest set of mysteries. This is also how I have heard most Orthodox who pray the Rosary actually pray it. I’m unaware of how many people do the whole 15 mystery Rule of the Theotokos.

maybe im wrong. i found it on google now at westernorthodox.com/rosary.html maybe that is different western orthodox that your western orthodox? is there more than one western jurisdiction? i didnt know about it so i googled it a few weeks ago. i added it to my prayers, but my prayer rule already keeps me too busy to have time to pray this. i like it the Rule of the Theotokos. i just love her.

 

[searn77]

maybe im wrong. i found it on google now at westernorthodox.com/rosary.html maybe that is different western orthodox that your western orthodox? is there more than one western jurisdiction? i didnt know about it so i googled it a few weeks ago. i added it to my prayers, but my prayer rule already keeps me too busy to have time to pray this. i like it the Rule of the Theotokos. i just love her.

I mean the Rule of the Theotokos is a great Orthodox prayer and I too have found it on western rite Orthodox sites but I’m pretty sure the old Catholic rosary is what is commonly done. I have even found directions for the old Catholic rosary on a few Antiochian western rite Orthodox parish websites.

 

[JW55]

I was in the Orthodox Church, mostly in the Serbian jurisdiction, from 1990 to 2003. From the mid-1990s to 2003 I attended St. Michael Orthodox Church in Whittier, CA, a Western Rite parish in the Antiochian Archdiocese that uses the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, about once a month. Here is their website:

stmichaelwhittier.org

The first time that I attended, I was taken aback by the statues and the organ music, which I was not used to in an Orthodox parish. (St. Michael’s also has some icons.) The hymns are wonderful: the parishioners (most of them converts from evangelical Protestantism, though the nucleus of the parish was originally Anglican of some sort) very kind. The Liturgy and the church building has the overall air of very High Church Anglicanism with a few Eastern Orthodox accretions.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for St. Michael’s. It is an exemplar of its type, I think. It was (is?) a fairly small parish, with a lot of congregational singing, potluck lunches after Sunday Divine Liturgy, a much-used library and a busy bookstore/gift shop. One disadvantage to the parish (as with many Orthodox parishes) is that it is a commuter parish: as far as I know, nobody lives in the immediate neighborhood (a community college and a cemetery), and one must travel two or three miles in any direction to get to residential neighborhoods. It would be nice if the Catholic parishes I am acquainted with were smaller and more personal like St. Michael’s, with a better sense of liturgy. Heck, I’d very seriously consider joining a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, if I were ever to live within five miles of one. But if I were to live within five miles of a parish of the Anglican Ordinariate, I’d probably also live within five miles of a Melkite or Byzantine Catholic parish. Oh, what a decision!

PS: The epiclesis at an Orthodox Western Rite Divine Liturgy comes immediately after the Words of Institution – “And make this bread the body of Thy Christ, and make that which is in this cup, the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen.” I still, after almost seven years that I reverted to Catholicism, wonder why the epiclesis in the Ordus Novo is before the Words of Institution.

From your experience, did the church you attended follow more the Anglican or Roman Catholic fomr of worship?

 

[Diamantina]

The Liturgy of St. Tikhon is an adaptation of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, so St. Michael’s in Whittier follows the Anglican form of worship (very High Church, naturellement).

 

[lelhajj]

is there a difference in the beliefs between roman catholics and melkites religions? i know that when melkites marry they have different traditions or they celebrate it different, but, i am not sure if there is really a difference in beliefs. Can somebody who is familiar with both religions tell me if there are more differences?

 

[Hesychios]

Hello lelhajj,
This is off-topic and could be another thread, but it is a good question and you deserve an answer.

is there a difference in the beliefs between roman catholics and melkites religions? i know that when melkites marry they have different traditions or they celebrate it different, but, i am not sure if there is really a difference in beliefs. Can somebody who is familiar with both religions tell me if there are more differences?

Eastern Catholics can answer this question for you better than I, but I will give you a brief introduction.

The Melkites (or Melchites) of history were originally the supporters of the Byzantine imperial government (and were largely Helenized Greek speaking Christians in the Syria/Palestinian/Egyptian areas) in the first 1000 years of Christian church history. In obedience to the law they adopted the liturgical tradition of the Great Church of Constantinople, Hagia Sophia (the liturgy of St Basil-St John Chrysostom) and worshiped in Greek for many centuries (now in Arabic). In the Syrian region they were generally opposed by the Jacobite Miaphysites and the Maronites, each of which better reflected their own regional ethnicity and language in imperial times as well as a different take on theology.

As Orthodox in the first millenium, the Melkites were the representative Catholic church in the region until the great schism. There is nothing actually non-Catholic in their theology or practices, they are just not Latin.

Today the church is split between the Melkite Catholics and the Antiochian [Melkite] Orthodox. Both churches profess to believe in Orthodox theology but the Melkite Catholic church is in communion with the bishop of Rome and does not seem to formally-officially oppose the unique Latin Catholic theological professions which have developed in more recent centuries.

The Zoghby Initiative endorsed by the Melkite Catholic synod in 1995AD

1. 
   *]I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
   *]I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

 

[lelhajj]

Thank you for your answer. I had been having such doubt for more than 20 years. I do really appreciate the courtesy you took to explain it to me.