Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism’s Infallibility Problem

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…including the comments following, which include further interesting information from, among others, respected Orthodox contributors. 😃
 
…including the comments following, which include further interesting information from, among others, respected Orthodox contributors. 😃
I took a gander to see the names, but didn’t actually read either the post or the responses. It really seems like, if anything, my lenten resolution should be to spend less time on CAF, not to risk getting sucked into yet another venue. 😊 🙂
 
Ugh. There are so many mischaracterizations and downright inaccuracies about the “Protestant” view of the canon, that I stopped reading after the third paragraph. Does not one non-Lutheran left on this earth actually understand what the Lutheran understanding of the canon is?

internetmonk.com/archive/thinking-about-the-canon-a-lutheran-view
He wasn’t trying to give the Lutheran view of the canon. And if you have read other articles of his, you would know that some Protestants on that site have said he accurately describes their view of the canon. If he comes up with a view that satisfies you, without a doubt another Protestant will say that view is incorrect.

So do you speak for all Protestants, or do they?
 
He wasn’t trying to give the Lutheran view of the canon. And if you have read other articles of his, you would know that some Protestants on that site have said he accurately describes their view of the canon. If he comes up with a view that satisfies you, without a doubt another Protestant will say that view is incorrect.

So do you speak for all Protestants, or do they?
I speak for myself, with a better understanding of Luther and Lutheranism than the author of that disappointingly polemical article. When he presents a blanket straw man of a “Protestant” canon to burn, and lumps Lutherans in with it (heck he starts off with a good Ol’ Luther-bashing!), then he draws my attention. I’d like to set some facts straight for him: Luther didn’t “remove” any books from the canon (his bible had one more book than modern Roman Catholics), Lutherans don’t subscribe dogmatically to any 66-book canon, and Lutherans don’t deny the teaching authority of the church. Ugh.

Every Catholic argument boils down to the same tired essence: you don’t have a pope, so what did you replace him with? But that’s such a Romo-centric view of the church, that it doesn’t take into account that it is possible to hold to an ecclesiology that does not require a fallible, sinful, human being to determine doctrine. Your question asks the same thing. I’m no pope. Lutheranism has no pope. Lutheranism needs no pope.
 
Every Catholic argument boils down to the same tired essence: you don’t have a pope, so what did you replace him with?
You must only read certain Catholic arguments, because I have seen plenty that do not boil down to that, right here on this forum.
But that’s such a Romo-centric view of the church, that it doesn’t take into account that it is possible to hold to an ecclesiology that does not require a fallible, sinful, human being to determine doctrine.
Of course it’s possible to hold such an ecclesiology, and Protestantism shows this. And nowhere has the author of that article ever stated that it was impossible, (you will have to take my word for it, since you say you stopped reading after the third paragraph). Protestantism, and Orthodoxy for that matter show that it is possible to hold that view. I think everyone should hold the view that we don’t need fallible people making doctrines, if the Holy Spirit is not guiding them. But since the parameters you set did not include the Holy Spirit, your statement in no way address, or disproves the Catholic view on Papal infallibility, or the infallibility of ecumenical councils. Without this charism of infallibility, we are truly left with blindly determining what we ourselves think at the moment is correct. We can pick and choose what doctrines we want to follow (truly the sheep in charge). I might add, that the authors of the NT were all fallible, sinful, human beings. As such, why should I believe the Holy Spirit guided them to write the scriptures without error, but will not guide the Church to teach in the same manner?
Your question asks the same thing. I’m no pope. Lutheranism has no pope. Lutheranism needs no pope.
Actually my question did not ask if you were the pope. Nor was it meant to be a subtle way of saying that you need a pope, or that you were acting like a pope. From reading your many posts, I have been able to discern that much (only took me two days to reach that conclusion ;)). And I know Lutherans don’t have a pope. Nor did I ever ask if Lutheranism needs a pope. In my opinion every Christian needs the pope. But you did make a blanket statement for all of Protestantism about that article, one which I called into question. And that statement prompted my question if you spoke for all of Protestantism when you made that statement.

Here is your statement, where you spoke for all Protestants.
Ugh. There are so many mischaracterizations and downright inaccuracies about the “Protestant” view of the canon, that I stopped reading after the third paragraph.
Now all one has to do, is find one Protestant that does not find his view inaccurate, and your statement becomes false. You would have been better suited to state, “the author does not represent the view of Lutherans, on the determination of the canon.”

Tell me, do you think it is possible to present a view that accurately describes all Protestant’s views of the canon?
 
Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism’s Infallibility Problem
by Joe Heschmeyer
shamelesspopery.com/orthodox-and-protestant-infallibility-problem/

Definitely worth a read.
Hi RC,

OK. I will attempt to reply. OK the O and Ps are problematic in justifying their basis of authority (scripture and councils). I would only say C’s do also in that it is a bit circular and presumptuous with and by an infallible pope.

I mean let every man be called a liar, only God is true.

Of course the P’s have a problem. I would rather call it a ‘challenge’ to discern truth from error. Is that "problematic’’, or a sacred calling, a sacred responsibility, seeing that there are two kingdoms at war, even within the church, or so we are promised?

Circular because the C’s circumvent the challenge, eliminating any conditionality thru an infallible office. Of course the C church discerns and is challenged in that, like the P’s and O’s. Just that she claims an office to be infallible.That eliminates what we have had since the garden, the personal and corporate responsibility to weigh and discern in fear and trembling (because we can be wrong,deceived in ourselves) ,“what hath God really said?”

For sure from the CC point of view the O’s and P’s have a problem, as the article suggests.The presumption is on the CC’s part, that they are right with the missing link to the problem, the infallible papacy, which in turn justifies the very church that proclaimed the office in the first place. That is circular.

I would rather say we are all in the same boat. Lord help us in discerning the things of God (which books, which councils). Isn’t that what the earliest forefathers did ?

Blessings
 
Not to criticize a forum master, but neither of your links work.

I think we can safely say your posting ability was not infallible. 😉
Good point. Here #9 as it should have been,
I’m not going to say anything against the OP’s recommendation, but I’d like to make one of my own, or rather two:
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/
and
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/sub-index/index_orthodox-ch.htm
I have a pretty good idea what the really hard-core traditionalist Catholic posters think of those; but I ask those of you who are not-so-hard-core to give them a[nother] chance. 👍
 
Without this charism of infallibility, we are truly left with blindly determining what we ourselves think at the moment is correct.
Hi Duane,

One thing is the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit (to which we all agree), another is to suggest an infallible recipient (council, or office) . He is unconditionally right, not an office or council or individual.Yet it is possible, and He is glorified when we do ‘get it right’.

We do not need our infallibility to “see”. A broken and contrite heart seeking Him is not put to shame.

Blessings
 
Hi Duane,

One thing is the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit (to which we all agree), another is to suggest an infallible recipient (council, or office) .
This wasn’t addressed to me, but I want to point out that we also agree on “an infallible recipient”. For example, St. Peter on (at least) two occasions.
 
This wasn’t addressed to me, but I want to point out that we also agree on “an infallible recipient”. For example, St. Peter on (at least) two occasions.
unconditional recipient ? like the Holy Spirit is ?

PS your points are always welcome.
 
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