Eastern Orthodoxy and Purgatory, Immaculate Conception and Infallibility

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josephdaniel29 said:
I think for some reason the Catholic Church likes to have things ordered in very logical, rationally defined ways and wrapped up in easy to understand little packages. If A and B occurred then we can infallibly define that a person is a saint or that this sacrament is “valid.” The Holy Spirit blows where He will and doesn’t always fit into our mental constructs. The way the Holy Spirit acts in the life of the Church is often a mystery, and not a mystery in the sense of a puzzle needing to be solved (like A + B=C or transubstantiation), it’s a mystery in that we will never understand it, we can only enter into it.

There is no formula for sainthood. The Holy Spirit simply reveals it to the Church and we recognize that revelation. That is all.

Yours in Christ
Joe
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Please don’t blame The Holy Spirit for a direct question you are not willing to answer, with all due respect. It is not a matter of knowing things neatly and clearly, albeit I would rather have a definition of a Faith taught for a thousand years or more than have confusion grow around it and do nothing.

And excuse me please. Transubstantiation is a DEFINITION of Faith. You may not like it, but it was needed to establish when there arose heresies and controversies surrounding it.

Catholics have Clarity. I want to know what to believe and what to teach others to believe and not be among Dioceses arguing for who has Jurisdiction over me and my church and who doesn’t have. OK? Defining something is no cake walk. It takes Prudence and is very ill advised to take this laying down.

Faith means I believe in something not present to me Visibly. How do i believe in something when there is confusion surrounding it? 🤷

Again, you say rightly that The Holy Spirit does Teach and Inspire The Church. But it uses certain men to navigate that Truth to The people. There has to be order and right judgement in every action. And my point is still the same. How does an Orthodox Bishop know 100% that The Holy Spirit has revealed it to him, be it through the Cult of The people or other, that a Person Is In Heaven? How? Again… I have attended some of these events and can tell you they are quite ORDERLY in nature. Ultimately, the Bishop names the person a Saint. How, since he is not acting in an “Infallible” manner?

If you have no answer, that’s fine too. I don’t have all the answers to every question. But,** I am not the one Pronouncing a Dead person to be in Heaven.**
 
Father you say some very interesting things about us and alot of it is good. But I cannot figure out some of it because I sense a conflict of interest. For instance about annullments. I can never figure them out. Why nullify a marriage that has already been performed. Why not accept the Orthodox teaching on it so to tell the truth to God. Why walk around it? May by the Church is more to be blamed for marrying these couples than the couples themselves. Having annulments sure put you guys I mean the priests off the hook. Why can’t the Church be responsible for her mistakes as well. I mean ordinations are always valid. But sometimes you ordain men you should not of. Why not deal with marriages with more disclipline and make sure these marriages are from God and not from men. The Orthodox tend to deal with this in better teaching and discipline. These days the Sacrament of marriage is the one sacrament hardlys anyone prepares for and thus you are marrying alot of ignorant people. No wonder all these seperations! May by we should look at ourselves and see what we can do to better fixed this. I told one of my close RC priest friend and said as a condition to enter the Sacrament of Marriage the couple should be forced to go together in Church for 1 year. He smiled and said that might save alot of marriages. I feel sorry for the Catholic Church in the West. For some reason too many ignorant people are given permission to marry when in reality it is a fore gone conclusion that these marriages will not work. Where are our tough Priests from years ago. Boy I wish I had a Time tunnel to bring some back. Anyway I like your talks on some issues and it is interesting that you put the Orthodox on the same line of teachings as the Catholic Church. Thank you for that. I for one have no problems with any of these teachings except for one. Papal Infanbility is one I cannot understand too well. May be in the next Ecumenical Council this teaching will be better defined so that it will please the Orthodox. They might have to change it a bit. I love and support the Papacy. For me the Pope is Peter. Et Tu Petros! And you are Peter! Thank God for the Papacy and the Holy Father! This is a great sign for us too that Peter’s successor is in Rome. We need to support the Holy Father and allow him to speak to us. We can learn so much from the Holy Father. I am sure he will love to hear from us as well. As John Paul II wrote once " the Pope listens to the East! " May we both listen to each others words and profit from them. God Bless!
 
To give a little update here, good people. I am only doing this and would like to find the time for other issues on other forums as well so as to bring to light things that are “dormant” and unclear. I love and strive for Truth every day. What I hate the most is “Division” among people who should be loving one another in the name of Christ. The purpose of these are to show how closely Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy really is together. Not show how much they are apart. Sin … that’s everybody’s illness. But when it comes to Truth, to me anyway, It’s a big deal and when we can’t get straight answers we will not have peace inside. If we cannot come to terms of closeness and fraternal faith, where are we then? Have we really fallen so far apart that we can’t even enjoy a comfortable conversation without getting personal? I brought these 3 Doctrines to show that they do have a “Tint” of having possible Parallels. Why do some choose to fight that, i don’t know. When i look out my window right now I know what it looks like. It’s night. 9:44 CST… 7:44 Pacific Time… There is no doubt there. It is something that “men” has chosen to erect as a “Defining” moment so that we are not lost in it but have a clear sense.

Doctrines are the same way erected. Not invented… Defined. Some EO do not like to define what they believe. Ok. I get it. The Catholic Church does to avoid chaos and rebellion and dissensions on what we believe. You all are well aware there remain many dissenters on both sides of the aisle of our respective Churches. Wouldn’t it be best and more Noble to show The World how much we can agree than not? How much we can proclaim Jesus Christ together within Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism as “Theanthropos”.

So let’s just try to act civil and keep in mind that we are only apart as far as we choose to be. 🙂
 
TP2 said:
Bless you too!

You still don’t get my point. The Pope is considered as Canonizing Saints as an Infallible Teacher. Orthodox aren’t supposed to have one, remember? I don’t want to get into semantical arguments of “why” somehting is done here or there. My point is The Catholic Church canonizes Saints by The Pope whose charism is already understood to be an Infallible One by The Catholic Church so he gives what he can. The Orthodox Bishops do not claim for themselves a PERSONAL charism of Infallibilty yet they continue to do so without defining what they are doing when they categorically Pronounce a person as being in Heaven. I am not arguing the point of what the Catholic or Orthodox Processes are or the intentions of them. I am saying simply that EO’y prounounces persons as Saints in Heaven. I call that Infallibilty. What do you call it? 🤷

You still can’t answer my direct question but choose to dance around it. I am simply asking a question. How does the EO Bishop know a person is in Heaven if they do not accept Infallibility as a Charism for The Bishop of Rome, yet practice it themselves.
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Because no bishop has the “charism” of infallibility. There is no such thing. When an Orthodox bishop or synod makes an infallible statement they do it from within the Church, not above it. The difference is the Catholic Church teaches that the Bishop of Rome, and the Majesterium, is inherently infallible in certain situations. We teach that no bishop or group of bishops is inherently infallible. The proof being there have been heretical bishops, patriarchs, popes and councils. Their pronouncements are infallible only so far as they agree with the mind of the Church. Either the Church accepts the pronouncements or it doesn’t. That is all.

The way the Holy Spirit works in the life of the Chruch is often mysterious and not easy to define. Look at the history of the Ecumenical Councils. The bishops did not gather and announce beforehand that whatever the council decided would be ecumenical. Only after the Church as a whole had accepted the councils were they declared ecumenical at a later council.

It is no different in the present context of sainthood. When a synod gathers to glorify a saint they are only expressing the popular acclamation the Church has already made. Exactly how the Holy Spirit reveals a saint to the Church is mysterious. He reveals it and we recognize that revelation. It’s really no more complicated than that.

In Christ
Joe
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
A covenant is only between two parties: The strong party and the weak party. The couples together form the weak party, so I don’t think your statement is actually correct.
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I don’t understand what you mean by a strong and weak party, but, I understand that you are saying the covenant is between the two being married. I agree. Additionally the covenant between the two baptised spouses is integrated into the New Covenant. And the couple is making the covenant before God, which must be truthful.

**CCC 1617 **The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath.111 which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist. Christian marriage in its turn becomes an efficacious sign, the sacrament of the covenant of Christ and the Church. Since it signifies and communicates grace, marriage between baptized persons is a true sacrament of the New Covenant…
 
TP2 said:
Ultimately, the Bishop names the person a Saint. How, since he is not acting in an “Infallible” manner?
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He is acting in an infallible manner because he is expressing the mind of the Church, not because he has an inherent infallibility. If that same bishop doesn’t express the mind of the Church his declaration would not be infallible.

In Christ
Joe
 
I agree wholeheartedly Father! I hope someday we can worship together without all these restrictions. I am hoping and praying to God to inspire the Holy Father to convene an Ecumenical Council with the East to finalize our relationships that we had from the beginning. This will be the 8th Ecumenical Council and will be the final Council to settle all matters. 8 is a cool number for it involves fullnes and fullfillment. The 8th day is Sunday. So I am praying to God to help the Pope to convene this 8th Council which will involve the whole Church. Will that be something to see in our times! God Bless!
 
DavidKays said:
Father you say some very interesting things about us and alot of it is good. But I cannot figure out some of it because I sense a conflict of interest. For instance about annullments. I can never figure them out. Why nullify a marriage that has already been performed. Why not accept the Orthodox teaching on it so to tell the truth to God. Why walk around it? May by the Church is more to be blamed for marrying these couples than the couples themselves. Having annulments sure put you guys I mean the priests off the hook. Why can’t the Church be responsible for her mistakes as well. I mean ordinations are always valid. But sometimes you ordain men you should not of. Why not deal with marriages with more disclipline and make sure these marriages are from God and not from men. The Orthodox tend to deal with this in better teaching and discipline. These days the Sacrament of marriage is the one sacrament hardlys anyone prepares for and thus you are marrying alot of ignorant people. No wonder all these seperations! May by we should look at ourselves and see what we can do to better fixed this. I told one of my close RC priest friend and said as a condition to enter the Sacrament of Marriage the couple should be forced to go together in Church for 1 year. He smiled and said that might save alot of marriages. I feel sorry for the Catholic Church in the West. For some reason too many ignorant people are given permission to marry when in reality it is a fore gone conclusion that these marriages will not work. Where are our tough Priests from years ago. Boy I wish I had a Time tunnel to bring some back. Anyway I like your talks on some issues and it is interesting that you put the Orthodox on the same line of teachings as the Catholic Church. Thank you for that. I for one have no problems with any of these teachings except for one. Papal Infanbility is one I cannot understand too well. May be in the next Ecumenical Council this teaching will be better defined so that it will please the Orthodox. They might have to change it a bit. I love and support the Papacy. For me the Pope is Peter. Et Tu Petros! And you are Peter! Thank God for the Papacy and the Holy Father! This is a great sign for us too that Peter’s successor is in Rome. We need to support the Holy Father and allow him to speak to us. We can learn so much from the Holy Father. I am sure he will love to hear from us as well. As John Paul II wrote once " the Pope listens to the East! " May we both listen to each others words and profit from them. God Bless!
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Good points. Remember. Jesus was against divorce. Having said that, there are reasons that occur that remain as “impediments” that may become known after many years or a few months. Very sad. I know this personally. This thread is not about marriage, but I can tell you that when a person receives an “Annullment” in The Catholic Church, as you may know or not, it means the “Sacramental” Marriage never took place. Again, it’s harsh. But so is an “Eccliastical Divorce” in EO. I don’t know how the terms and understandings fo these will be understood in a reunited Christendom, but that’s not up to me.

“Infallibilty” is not “Impeccability”. Listen… When you go to your Church for the Divine Liturgy you go because you believe It teaches the Truth, right? OK… Well, you have to know that this is the case because you follow only the first 7 Ecumenical Councils which are considered by The EO as Infallible Teachings in them. So you don’t close the door on Infallibilty at all. And there are little ways The Orthodox Church does practice Infallibility outside of Those 7 Ecumenical Councils because my issue regarding Saints and Canonizations of them Post 1054 AD, are Infallible acts… People cannot say otherwise in their heart of hearts. The question is, How does anyone in the Orthodox Church know anyone by Name is In Heaven without a shred of doubt and not allow the possibility that Infallibilty is practiced. It doesn’t even matter how that process starts or ends. After the conclusion of the Bishops declaration, a real person is Named as in Heaven. What do you call that ? I don’t know. You tell me.

I just wish people in Eastern Orthodoxy would ask these questions. The good Patriarchs and Bishops are. There would be no Orthodox Catholic Dialogues if there was no interest to put these issues to rest once and for all.

I love the Divine Liturgy. I go and I vist EO and Eastern Catholic Churches and I don’t really see a difference, but then again I don’t speak Greek. lol… Look, we gotta work together not apart. There is no positive advancement for EO and Cath. to grow apart. The world needs to know about “Theanthropos” not become subdued with dissent. Over the years Eastern Catholics have enjoyed their Tradition without problems with Rome based on respective Traditions. So when I am asked “Why Are Catholic Priests NOT allowed to marry, I can say in all honesty that it is not true.” 🙂
 
TP2 said:
Good points. Remember. Jesus was against divorce. Having said that, there are reasons that occur that remain as “impediments” that may become known after many years or a few months. Very sad. I know this personally. This thread is not about marriage, but I can tell you that when a person receives an “Annullment” in The Catholic Church, as you may know or not, it means the “Sacramental” Marriage never took place. Again, it’s harsh. But so is an “Eccliastical Divorce” in EO. I don’t know how the terms and understandings fo these will be understood in a reunited Christendom, but that’s not up to me.

“Infallibilty” is not “Impeccability”. Listen… When you go to your Church for the Divine Liturgy you go because you believe It teaches the Truth, right? OK… Well, you have to know that this is the case because you follow only the first 7 Ecumenical Councils which are considered by The EO as Infallible Teachings in them. So you don’t close the door on Infallibilty at all. And there are little ways The Orthodox Church does practice Infallibility outside of Those 7 Ecumenical Councils because my issue regarding Saints and Canonizations of them Post 1054 AD, are Infallible acts… People cannot say otherwise in their heart of hearts. The question is, How does anyone in the Orthodox Church know anyone by Name is In Heaven without a shred of doubt and not allow the possibility that Infallibilty is practiced. It doesn’t even matter how that process starts or ends. After the conclusion of the Bishops declaration, a real person is Named as in Heaven. What do you call that ? I don’t know. You tell me.

I just wish people in Eastern Orthodoxy would ask these questions. The good Patriarchs and Bishops are. There would be no Orthodox Catholic Dialogues if there was no interest to put these issues to rest once and for all.

I love the Divine Liturgy. I go and I vist EO and Eastern Catholic Churches and I don’t really see a difference, but then again I don’t speak Greek. lol… Look, we gotta work together not apart. There is no positive advancement for EO and Cath. to grow apart. The world needs to know about “Theanthropos” not become subdued with dissent. Over the years Eastern Catholics have enjoyed their Tradition without problems with Rome based on respective Traditions. So when I am asked “Why Are Catholic Priests NOT allowed to marry, I can say in all honesty that it is not true.” 🙂
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Very true Father! If the Pope ever chooses a man to help bridge the Catholic Church with the Orthodox Church I hope he will not overlook you. I understand what you are saying Father somewhat but your real message to work together that I can understand. I hope you will continue with your office and minister as you do helping others or bringing others like the Orthodox and Catholics together with more understandings that will help them accept each other so that they can work together to bring the message of hope to this fallen world. God Bless!
 
DavidKays said:
Father you say some very interesting things about us and alot of it is good. But I cannot figure out some of it because I sense a conflict of interest. For instance about annullments. I can never figure them out. Why nullify a marriage that has already been performed. Why not accept the Orthodox teaching on it so to tell the truth to God. Why walk around it? May by the Church is more to be blamed for marrying these couples than the couples themselves. Having annulments sure put you guys I mean the priests off the hook. Why can’t the Church be responsible for her mistakes as well. I mean ordinations are always valid. But sometimes you ordain men you should not of. Why not deal with marriages with more disclipline and make sure these marriages are from God and not from men. The Orthodox tend to deal with this in better teaching and discipline. These days the Sacrament of marriage is the one sacrament hardlys anyone prepares for and thus you are marrying alot of ignorant people. No wonder all these seperations! May by we should look at ourselves and see what we can do to better fixed this. I told one of my close RC priest friend and said as a condition to enter the Sacrament of Marriage the couple should be forced to go together in Church for 1 year. He smiled and said that might save alot of marriages. I feel sorry for the Catholic Church in the West. For some reason too many ignorant people are given permission to marry when in reality it is a fore gone conclusion that these marriages will not work. Where are our tough Priests from years ago. Boy I wish I had a Time tunnel to bring some back. Anyway I like your talks on some issues and it is interesting that you put the Orthodox on the same line of teachings as the Catholic Church. Thank you for that. I for one have no problems with any of these teachings except for one. Papal Infanbility is one I cannot understand too well. May be in the next Ecumenical Council this teaching will be better defined so that it will please the Orthodox. They might have to change it a bit. I love and support the Papacy. For me the Pope is Peter. Et Tu Petros! And you are Peter! Thank God for the Papacy and the Holy Father! This is a great sign for us too that Peter’s successor is in Rome. We need to support the Holy Father and allow him to speak to us. We can learn so much from the Holy Father. I am sure he will love to hear from us as well. As John Paul II wrote once " the Pope listens to the East! " May we both listen to each others words and profit from them. God Bless!
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One last thought for you. Do you think that Christ would allow even one erroneous Doctrine to be Bound In Heaven? I think not. If Jesus said to Peter in Mt 16. “Whatever you shall bind on Earth, WILL BE Bound in heaven”, do you think Jesus Christ would ever allow Falsehood to be bound in Heaven? Think about that… 🙂

You also say that there are men that should not be ordained. Ok… Can I ask you why Jesus picked Judas to be the first Ordained BISHOP since he knew what he would become? He ordained Him anyway. In fact all of the Apostles had issues. None of them would be ordained today. lol… Trust me. And we still had problems… EO do too. If you want to see a link, send me personal note and I will share it. Not a flattering article about “some” Orthodox Priests either. And there’s far fewer of them than are Catholic and EO Priests are all allowed to marry…so celibacy is not the issue. Let me know… I am not here to entertain “SIN” be it Catholic or Orthodox.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
My friend that simply is not true.
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I have spoken to priests of other Rites. It is true. You only look for tensions. A family always has tensions. Have you been to an Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy? Recently? Or talked to some Eastern Catholic Priests lately? 😉
 
DavidKays said:
Very true Father! If the Pope ever chooses a man to help bridge the Catholic Church with the Orthodox Church I hope he will not overlook you. I understand what you are saying Father somewhat but your real message to work together that I can understand. I hope you will continue with your office and minister as you do helping others or bringing others like the Orthodox and Catholics together with more understandings that will help them accept each other so that they can work together to bring the message of hope to this fallen world. God Bless!
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Can I count on you to help me out, on occasion, too? I hope you don’t expect me to do it alone? lol… 👍

The Holy Spirit’s Fruits are within you, David. You blessed me tonite! yes you did. Thanx!
 
TP2 said:
Can I count on you to help me out, on occasion, too? I hope you don’t expect me to do it alone? lol… 👍

The Holy Spirit’s Fruits are within you, David. You blessed me tonite! yes you did. Thanx!
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…an alliance of the very confused. It makes sense in a weird way I guess. 🤷
 
TP2 said:
I have spoken to priests of other Rites. It is true. You only look for tensions. A family always has tensions. Have you been to an Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy? Recently? Or talked to some Eastern Catholic Priests lately? 😉
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I talk to plenty of people here but it’s not really necessary. All you have to do is look at the history of the Orthodox Church in America or the American Carpatho-Russian Archdiocese to see that many Eastern Catholics got plenty of trouble from Rome. 😉
 
TP2 said:
You still don’t get what I am saying. The Declaration of Nullity in a marriage has nothing whatsoever in Conflict with Orthodox Doctrine since they go a step further and also allow remarriage.

Remember. An Annulment is not a divorce. It is a NULLITY of The Sacramental Marriage, not the civil Marriage. The Church cannot tell the Government to accept what The Church does. So in this way, there is no conflict. This is a non-issue. I am talking in this Thread about issues Orthodoxy believes and practices yet a small group does not acknowledge that these 3 Teachings actually exist and are practiced by The Orthodox Church.

Catholic Annulments and Orthodox Divorces cause no friction because in both Churches there are remedies for a bad “SACRAMENTAL” marriage. Not Civil.
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Actually, I believe that there is a conflict with Orthodox doctrine because according to Orthodox doctrine, the priest confects the marriage and not the couple.
And since just about anyone can get an annulment by claiming that some trivial defect in the marriage occurred twenty or thirty years ago, there is in reality, no difference between a divorce and an annulment in many cases. It is splitting semantic hairs. That’s what it is in many cases. When Catholics split hairs, there is a big objection that this is not the case. But there is a lot of finger pointing and accusations against the Orthodox, when they object to certain Catholic teachings such as the infallibility and universal supreme jurisdiction of the Pope.
 
TP2 said:
One last thought for you. Do you think that Christ would allow even one erroneous Doctrine to be Bound In Heaven? I think not. .
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What about the teaching on slavery? Was it right to command that slaves be subject to their masters? Consider for example the young black African woman. Should she be subject to her white European slave master? Was this right?
 
TP2 said:
One last thought for you. Do you think that Christ would allow even one erroneous Doctrine to be Bound In Heaven? I think not. If Jesus said to Peter in Mt 16. “Whatever you shall bind on Earth, WILL BE Bound in heaven”, do you think Jesus Christ would ever allow Falsehood to be bound in Heaven? Think about that… 🙂

You also say that there are men that should not be ordained. Ok… Can I ask you why Jesus picked Judas to be the first Ordained BISHOP since he knew what he would become? He ordained Him anyway. In fact all of the Apostles had issues. None of them would be ordained today. lol… Trust me. And we still had problems… EO do too. If you want to see a link, send me personal note and I will share it. Not a flattering article about “some” Orthodox Priests either. And there’s far fewer of them than are Catholic and EO Priests are all allowed to marry…so celibacy is not the issue. Let me know… I am not here to entertain “SIN” be it Catholic or Orthodox.
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Father I got a theory about that one. I do not think Jesus will have chosen Judas right away like He did the others. Knowing that Judas will betray Him, I do not think Jesus will have chosen him like the rest. He probably say to Judas go home to think about it. I believe Judas must have wanted to be chosen. He insisted on it. If you are the Messiah then why do you not accept me? Judas wanted to join and Jesus accepted it. I believe God paid much attention to Judas. The character of Judas is like one who wishes not to be corrected unlike Peter who wishes to be corrected. We see Jesus warning Judas at the end when He says one of you is a devil and one of you will betray me. These are not condemnations but warnings to tell Judas don’t do this for if you do I may not be able to save you. Judas did not listen to the warnings and committed his betrayal anyway. This was costly for it brought to Judas to his greatest sin of despair. I believe Judas could have been forgiven had he listen to Jesus words. There is no sin God refuses to forgive. It is your own refusal that does it. Unlike Peter who repented with tears Judas went further downward to despair. This is how I see the difference between Judas and Peter. Judas did not have to stay with the Apostolic college. He could have left anytime. If he did not believe in Jesus why did he stayed on? In the St.John Bosco movie the Saint told the boys you can leave anytime you want to. Why Judas stayed is puzzling. Anyway these were some of my thoughts Father on this. Sometimes a priest enters and decides to do his will and not the Lord’s. May be Judas was this type of person. Anyway God Bless you Father! Its getting late so I must retire.
 
sidbrown said:
It makes no sense to accuse Orthodox of splitting hairs when Catholics do the same thing in many areas, such as for example, marriage annulments. Everyone else calls it a divorce, but Catholics insist on splitting hairs and calling it an annulment,.
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Amen. 😉

Is there any hope for my soul because:
  • I was married twice, got an annulment on the 1st, but I believe both marriages were sacramental and valid
  • I don’t accept Infallibility
  • I believe Rome and the EO and the OO are ‘right now’ parts of the One Catholic Church - I guess that makes me an ecumenist
On topic: ‘Infallibility’ -

Even our Lord said, “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31) Even though our Lord Jesus was of course ‘Infallible’, yet as He humbled himself as a man he became fallible. He never erred of course, but as a man He could have. Otherwise the principle of ‘Two or three witnesses shall every word be established’ would not apply. The witness of Jesus, as God, could have been all by itself a true witness, because that which is perfect has no need of anything else to perfect it; but as a man Jesus has need of a second witness for His word to be true!

If the Fundamentalist Protestants did not claim that the Bible was ‘Infallible’, then they would not be able to also claim that they have no need of Holy Tradition. If the pope is ‘Infallible’ then there is no need of an Ecumenical Counsel. In short, if anything is ‘Infallible’, we have no need for the rest. This is because “when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Cor 13:10).

An ‘Infallible’ man in counsel with a ‘Fallible’ man is like a man talking to his own shadow. The shadow needs the man to exist, but the man does not need the shadow to exist. If the ‘Infallible’ pope is in counsel with ‘Fallible’ bishops why would the pope not “do anything without the advice and consent and approval of all” as the Apostolic Canon says. Or, how can there be “concord” between a true man & a synod of shadows?

I put this argument forth not to convince anyone; rather I want someone to convince me; so that I can believe the same as all the Catholic Church teaches!

😃 Happy in Christ & in His Church!
JohnVIII
 
JohnVIII said:
but as a man Jesus has need of a second witness for His word to be true!
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Sorry, this is just bizarre. :confused: Jesus IS the Word.
The bread became Christ Himself at the Last Supper because He said so. Not because He needed a witness for it to happen.
 
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