Eastern Orthodoxy Questions

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Here’s 2 questions one could ask


  1. *]Did Peter get supreme jurisdiction in the Church? Y/N?
    *]Who gave it to him? Jesus or a Church Council?

    Answer:

    1. *]yes
      *]Jesus, (said in 3 ways) #30 , #385 ,#660

      As in the resiedence of the emperor?

      Rome the city was priveledge due to being the imperial city but that’s NOT why the Church of Rome was priviledged. Rome the city was trying to irradicate the Church. The Church in Rome was priveledged because it was the see of Peter.

      So…what was happening before the Catholic Church became legal in the empire??

      #123

      from the 1st century, The Church of Rome held the presidency. See Ignatius of Antioch (~35 - 107 a.d.) letter to the Romans ~107 a,d earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-romans-lightfoot.html Read the introduction

      Regardless of Tiberius in 37 through Constantine in 307, past the Empire and Emperor phase into forever the Church of Rome is priveledged above all the Churches. 😉

    1. Sorry for the triple post. If you actually read cannon 28 in its context, they use to terms Rome, and others city names as short-hands to refer to the “Church of [Insert place here].” Other councils were more explicit, saying that it deserved its honor not only because of the city’s former political significance, but also because both Peter and Paul died there. Paul gradually becomes forgotten over the centuries. And tragically the church built in dedication to him burned down in 19th century I believe. They tried to restore it, but the 19th century rendition of the older artwork is atrocious I hear.

      And with all due respect, the amount of evidence about the early Christian Church before its legalization that we have is very little. As a result, all the evidence presented for either side of the debate of papal primacy before the fifth century is so ambiguous that it isn’t at all convincing unless you are already convinced. This is why most people who debate the issue at least begin with Pope Leo I, which is arguably still too ambiguous.
 
Mark of Ephesus actually wasn’t far off. It has been demonstrated historically that a vast number of the most important manuscripts presented at Florence were highly corrupted. This revelation and vindication of many Orthodox complaints at the time, of course, does not fully resolve the Filioque debate. For the source, see: Siecienski, A. Edward. The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Debate. New York: Oxford University Press, 2010.

The first florilegium composed in favor of the Filioque clause by Theodulf of Orleans in the late eighth or early ninth century contained excerpts thought to be by Athanasius. Now we know that is was not he who wrote it, so it is now understood to be pseudo-Athanasius.
No ways. Mark of Ephesus was way off and ambitious. He held a ridiculous theory that all the writings of the Latin saints brought forward at Florence , that is near the entire corpus of Latin saints, were forged because he could not explain how such saints could teach the filioque. The Latins proved in great lengths the teaching in their fathers .

If this revelation were true, articles upon articles, journals and encyclopedias as well as the internet and books would be filled with this information. Yet the opposite situation is reality. Academia does not recognize this “discovery” as worth merit evidently.

Yes there were a few forged texts especially amongst the Greek texts presented at Florence but that was proved to be the case for both sides (Greeks and Latins). The amount of forged texts at Florence amounted to nothing near a majority nor even a significant minority of the texts presented at the council.

In fact Bassarion, bishop of Nicaea and who left the council a roman cardinal, had this to say on the deliberations at the council concerning the filioque :

"They brought forward passages not only of the western teachers but quite as many of the eastern… to which we had no reply whatsoever to make that they were corrupt and corrupted by the Latins. They brought forward our own Epiphanius as in many places clearly declaring that the Spirit is from the Father and the Son: corrupt we said they were. They read the text mentioned earlier in Basil’s work against Eunomius: in our judgment it was interpolated. They adduced the words of the Saints of the West: the whole of our answer was ‘corrupt’ and nothing more. We consider and consult among ourselves for several days as to what answer we shall make, but find no other defence at all but that…'

We had no books that would prove the Latin texts to be corrupt, no Saints who spoke differently from those put forward. found ourselves deprived of a just case in every direction. So we kept silent ’ (.G. 161, 358CD)."

George Scholarius, however, though he was by no means unacquainted with the philosophy of the Latin Church, had not, as far as is known, been assailed by any previous doubts about the orthodoxy of his own Church. However, he shared Bessarion’s views as to the solidity of the Latin presentation of their doctrine :

"But you all see that the Latins have contended brilliantly for their faith so that no one with a sense of justice has any reason to reproach them… They brought forward from the common Fathers of the Church the six most renowned in dignity, wisdom and the struggles for the faith (I pass over the others) as witnesses of their doctrine, each of whom must be judged the equal of all the men in the world, and those not just incidentally and casually but as if they were for us judges of the present dispute.

They argued so precisely and clearly, expressing the question in exact words and as befits teachers, appending also the reasons and the texts of Holy Scripture from which they had drawn that doctrine as an inevitable conclusion, just as they culled others from other texts… . . Besides, they put forward others from the common Fathers, those of the East I mean, adorned with an equal wisdom and honor, who also said just the same as those others, though not so plainly, if their words are examined in a spirit of truth and wisdom, and they offered in proof of their doctrine no merely specious reasoning, no coercion, but everything straightforwardly and as flowing from the divine Scriptures and the Fathers. On our part nothing was said to them to which they did not manifestly reply with wisdom, magnanimity and truth, and we have no Saint at all who clearly contradicts them.

If indeed there were such, he should in some fashion or manner be made to harmonize with the majority much more justly than that the multitude of the Teachers should be forced into his mould… Nor shall we say that the Doctors are mutually contradictory, for this is to introduce complete confusion and to deny the whole of the faith.** Who is so simple-minded as to believe that the Latins wish to destroy the faith and to adulterate the trinitarian theology of all the Doctors? Surely a man who affirms this deserves nothing but ridicule, for no accusation would be disproved by more numerous, more weighty and more truthful arguments than this one**.’ (Speech, ‘On the Need of Aiding Constantinople’, addressed to the Greeks by Scholarius in Florence, in Schol. I, pp. 297-8, 299)."

The last highlighted part is a shot at the theory of mark of Ephesus who held that the Latins corrupted all their texts.
 
So, from the Roman Catholic POV, would the Eastern Orthodoxl be required to renounce these “errors” before any union of RC and EO could take place?
Not in a formal ceremony but yes. They would probably have to sign a document of catholic faith, as with all unions. Or, at the very least, make a profession of catholic faith.
 
i.e., the opinions of popes.
Lord, have Mercy! Enough is enough. This is where I draw the line. You think yourself so highly that on a matter concerning catholic opinion you put your opinion above that of the very Popes, saints and doctors of the catholic church!:eek: This reeks of an arrogance which stems from your inability to admit error when you manifestly are and an inability to accept a different conclusion being reached on the same set of material. (Photius , Mark Eugenikos and their writings). Say what you want but as far as this sub-topic goes, I’m done.

Good day to you sir
 
Sorry for the triple post. If you actually read cannon 28 in its context, they use to terms Rome, and others city names as short-hands to refer to the “Church of [Insert place here].” Other councils were more explicit, saying that it deserved its honor not only because of the city’s former political significance, but also because both Peter and Paul died there. Paul gradually becomes forgotten over the centuries. And tragically the church built in dedication to him burned down in 19th century I believe. They tried to restore it, but the 19th century rendition of the older artwork is atrocious I hear.
taking that in steps

I was responding to the OP #1, and here is my response #78, do you see where I agree, no council gave the pope that power, the power came from Jesus? And I gave one of many reasons that can be used to answer the question. I used that one reason but expressed that reason from 3 different perspectives in past responses.

Other reasons that are classically used are Mt 16 and Jn 21.

She asked how to respond to some broad topics. So my response took the position of asking some broad questions since she was asking for an approach on how to respond.

Where is the evidence Paul was gradually forgotten over the centuries?

As for the Church and the artwork of the Church dedicated to him in Rome,

Maybe you should take a virtual tour Of the papal basilica of St Pauls Outside the Walls and see for yourself vatican.va/various/basiliche/san_paolo/vr_tour/index-en.html
R:
And with all due respect, the amount of evidence about the early Christian Church before its legalization that we have is very little.
The Early Christian Church was called the “Catholic Church” and that was “in writing” in early Church documents.
R:
As a result, all the evidence presented for either side of the debate of papal primacy before the fifth century is so ambiguous that it isn’t at all convincing unless you are already convinced.
Jesus ended that debate. Peter was given primacy by Jesus. It’s Satan who keeps this argument going. Read my previous post for references all properly referenced

I’ve asked this question in many different ways over the years on this forum. I haven’t gotten an answer to this question** yet**. Maybe you have the answer

Go back in the Early Church documents. There are 36 volumes. When does the name “Orthodox Church” first appear in writing? Please give exact references properly referenced
R:
This is why most people who debate the issue at least begin with Pope Leo I, which is arguably still too ambiguous.
by “most people” are you thinking Orthodox debators on this issue?
 
I’m done.
Your posts read much better without the histrionics.

Once, you know, men from Samos arrived in Sparta seeking aid. As was natural, they gave a long-winded appeal to the Spartans. But the speech was so long that the Spartans complained that they had forgotten the first part of the speech and could not understand the remainder, and so, the Samians were sent away empty-handed. Later, the Samians again received an audience with the Spartans where, having learned from their previous encounter, they simply brought a bag to the Spartans and told them, “the bag wants flour”, an act which gained for them a resolution from the Spartans to give them aid.

We’ll see if you make good on your promise.
 
… snip

The Early Christian Church was called the “Catholic Church” and that was “in writing” in early Church documents.

… snip
Do you realize that the word “Catholic” is Greek. It was referred in Greek as katholiki, (καθολική) which means universal.

When we say the Nicene Creed in our Greek Orthodox church, which was created way back in the early 300’s, …“I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator…” there is a line which reads as follows…

… :In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church:

Greek: εἰς μίαν ἁγίαν **καθολικὴν **καὶ ἀποστολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν·

Latin: in unam **catholicam **atque apostolicam Ecclesiam.

In closing, the word means “Universal”
 
No ways. Mark of Ephesus was way off and ambitious. He held a ridiculous theory that all the writings of the Latin saints brought forward at Florence , that is near the entire corpus of Latin saints, were forged because he could not explain how such saints could teach the filioque. The Latins proved in great lengths the teaching in their fathers .

If this revelation were true, articles upon articles, journals and encyclopedias as well as the internet and books would be filled with this information. Yet the opposite situation is reality. Academia does not recognize this “discovery” as worth merit evidently.

Yes there were a few forged texts especially amongst the Greek texts presented at Florence but that was proved to be the case for both sides (Greeks and Latins). The amount of forged texts at Florence amounted to nothing near a majority nor even a significant minority of the texts presented at the council.

The last highlighted part is a shot at the theory of mark of Ephesus who held that the Latins corrupted all their texts.
I never said Mark was entirely correct. I merely stated the fact that he wasn’t far off. And yes, historians now do accept that Mark was on to something. Scholars have examined the texts. There were alterations to many of them, many of which took place centuries before. But they were alterations nonetheless. Does this mean that the Orthodox didn’t also make their own alterations? No, they did too. I’m merely pointing out the historical fact, which I provided a source for. Now if you really think historians still back you, then provide recent and relevant counter evidence from modern experts. If you cannot meet these inquests, then I suggest recourse to Hume’s advice in similar cases: to the flames.
Where is the evidence Paul was gradually forgotten over the centuries?
Concerning your terminology on “Catholic”, jakasaki answered that part.

As for when Paul was gradually forgotten, it seems pretty clear to me that Paul did sorta fade into the background as unimportant to the prestige of Rome. For a brief mention of this see: Francis Dvornik, Byzantium and the Roman Primacy. New York: Fordham University Press, 1966. Corrected edition 1979.
 
Do you realize that the word “Catholic” is Greek. It was referred in Greek as katholiki, (καθολική) which means universal.

When we say the Nicene Creed in our Greek Orthodox church, which was created way back in the early 300’s, …“I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator…” there is a line which reads as follows…

… :In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church:

Greek: εἰς μίαν ἁγίαν **καθολικὴν **καὶ ἀποστολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν·

Latin: in unam **catholicam **atque apostolicam Ecclesiam.

In closing, the word means “Universal”
In a secular sense of the word, that is what catholic means

Theoligacally: the definition is different

Acts 9:31
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samar′ia …

That phrase (the church throughout all) in Greek ἐ****κκλησία,καθ’,ὅ****λης** ,**τ**ῆς became the Greek compound word Katholikos, from kata (according to) holos (the whole). **So the ecclesia kata holos = the katholikos Church = the Catholic Church.

catholic means, the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed “everywhere, always, and by all” And when catholic is paired with church, it becomes a proper name describing a certain Church.

And which Church was THAT, “The Catholic Church” and how does one know for sure which Church is THAT Church?

Irenaeus who began his life in Smyrna (today Izmir, a city in Turkey) and became bishop of Lyon, (still called Lyon a city in France) made that description very clear.

Irenaeus wrote the following ~180 a.d.

Here’s how he defined “The Catholic Church

Bk 1 ch 10
“the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said”.
newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm

He further makes his point

Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3 is where Irenaeus gets absolutely specific, and so that there is no confusion what so ever, of who he is talking about, he names 12 bishops of the Church of Rome from Peter down to his day.
 
In a secular sense of the word, that is what catholic means

Theoligacally: the definition is different

Acts 9:31
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samar′ia …

That phrase (the church throughout all) in Greek κκλησία**,καθ’,λης** ,τ**ῆς became the Greek compound word Katholikos, from kata (according to) holos (the whole). **So the ecclesia kata holos = the katholikos Church = the Catholic Church.

catholic means, the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed “everywhere, always, and by all” And when catholic is paired with church, it becomes a proper name describing a certain Church.

And which Church was THAT, “The Catholic Church” and how does one know for sure which Church is THAT Church?

Irenaeus who began his life in Smyrna (today Izmir, a city in Turkey) and became bishop of Lyon, (still called Lyon a city in France) made that description very clear.

Irenaeus wrote the following ~180 a.d.

Here’s how he defined “The Catholic Church

Bk 1 ch 10
“the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said”.
newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm

He further makes his point

Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3 is where Irenaeus gets absolutely specific, and so that there is no confusion what so ever, of who he is talking about, he names 12 bishops of the Church of Rome from Peter down to his day.
Latin didn’t differentiate between proper adjectives and normal adjectives, since capitalization didn’t exist so-to-speak. Nor did punctuation exist at that time either. You are applying English grammar rules to a language that abides by very different rules.

If you actually look at Iranaeus’ text in its original language, you would see this: textexcavation.com/documents/images/ah1p051.jpg . Even the Latin conveys jakasaki’s point the most eloquently. The line you are referring to reads:

cum ea, quae est Ecclesia universa, unam et eandem fidem habeat in universo mundo, quemadmodum praediximus.

The editors who transcribed this text of course capitalized “Ecclesia” because it was clear from the context that Iranaeus was referring to THE Church and not A church. Iranaeus’ Latin didn’t simply borrow from the Greek “catholicus” either, which it could have. Instead it used “universa.” For all intensive purposes, “Catholic” and “Orthodox” only became proper adjectives historically at the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. It’s an early modern invention and convention.
 
I never said Mark was entirely correct. I merely stated the fact that he wasn’t far off. And yes, historians now do accept that Mark was on to something. Scholars have examined the texts.
Who? Name them and quote them. And who supports their theory? Why is this “discovery” not making headway in the academic circles. I’ve searched left right and centre on the internet and only seen 3 references to your information which all use the source you cited earlier. Not that convincing…
There were alterations to many of them, many of which took place centuries before. But they were alterations nonetheless.
Alterations? What are these alterations? Are they additions of the filioque clause specifically or just the scholarly “alterations” that could mean anything from outright forgery to insignificant scribal errors , spelling mistakes or punctuation errors. Mark of Ephesus claimed that the texts were doctored in reference to the filioque clause.

We have numerous copies of the texts of western saints and volumes of their books. Most are accepted as authentic. I’m not attacking you, I’m just asking you adequately substantiate your claims.
Does this mean that the Orthodox didn’t also make their own alterations? No, they did too.
Oh yes they did as you say. We know history, the fathers, ecumenical councils and other facts highlight the rich and colorful history that the Greeks have when it comes to deliberately forging letters and documents (they were notorious for it)
I’m merely pointing out the historical fact, which I provided a source for.
Its not a fact. Its one reference to one source that claims this. Where are the articles, books, writings on it speaking about it? If it were so true it would have some paper trail. An example is the recent discovery, a few years ago, of the phrase “from the Father and the Son” in the Nicene creed of an eastern synod held in Seleucia-Ctesiphon 410AD. Just a few years later information about it is everywhere, even on Wikipedia.
Now if you really think historians still back you, then provide recent and relevant counter evidence from modern experts. If you cannot meet these inquests, then I suggest recourse to Hume’s advice in similar cases: to the flames.
No the burden of proof on you who maintains a theory unsubstantiated except by claims and one reference to a book which claims something that generally is absent from any academic source. You are challenging the reality, it is thus your job to prove your position.
 
Latin didn’t differentiate between proper adjectives and normal adjectives, since capitalization didn’t exist so-to-speak. Nor did punctuation exist at that time either. You are applying English grammar rules to a language that abides by very different rules.

If you actually look at Iranaeus’ text in its original language, you would see this: textexcavation.com/documents/images/ah1p051.jpg . Even the Latin conveys jakasaki’s point the most eloquently. The line you are referring to reads:

cum ea, quae est Ecclesia universa, unam et eandem fidem habeat in universo mundo, quemadmodum praediximus.
  • Lower case didn’t appear till much later.
  • Irenaeus further qualifies his point
    Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3 is where Irenaeus gets absolutely specific, and so that there is no confusion what so ever, of who he is talking about, he names 12 bishops of the Church of Rome from Peter down to his day…that everyone must agree with
R:
The editors who transcribed this text of course capitalized “Ecclesia” because it was clear from the context that Iranaeus was referring to THE Church and not A church. Iranaeus’ Latin didn’t simply borrow from the Greek “catholicus” either, which it could have. Instead it used “universa.” For all intensive purposes, “Catholic” and “Orthodox” only became proper adjectives historically at the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. It’s an early modern invention and convention.
in 180 when Irenaeus wrote his “Against Heresies” that work would have been all capitals.
 
  • Lower case didn’t appear till much later.
  • Irenaeus further qualifies his point
    Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3 is where Irenaeus gets absolutely specific, and so that there is no confusion what so ever, of who he is talking about, he names 12 bishops of the Church of Rome from Peter down to his day…that everyone must agree with
in 180 when Irenaeus wrote his “Against Heresies” that work would have been all capitals. It’s lower case letters that was the later invention
Chapter 2 doesn’t back up your case at any point. He is only talking about prominent bishops of Rome who righteously held to the true faith. He also references more than them though. He is essentially talking about correct faith. He wasn’t speaking of any sort of Church that used a proper adjective.

Furthermore, you misunderstand me. I did not claim that capitals were invented. I was only saying the terms “Orthodox” and “Catholic” only became proper adjectives after the Protestant Reformation. Sorry for the confusion.
Who? Name them and quote them. And who supports their theory? Why is this “discovery” not making headway in the academic circles. I’ve searched left right and centre on the internet and only seen 3 references to your information which all use the source you cited earlier. Not that convincing…

Alterations? What are these alterations? Are they additions of the filioque clause specifically or just the scholarly “alterations” that could mean anything from outright forgery to insignificant scribal errors , spelling mistakes or punctuation errors. Mark of Ephesus claimed that the texts were doctored in reference to the filioque clause.

We have numerous copies of the texts of western saints and volumes of their books. Most are accepted as authentic. I’m not attacking you, I’m just asking you adequately substantiate your claims.

Oh yes they did as you say. We know history, the fathers, ecumenical councils and other facts highlight the rich and colorful history that the Greeks have when it comes to deliberately forging letters and documents (they were notorious for it)

Its not a fact. Its one reference to one source that claims this. Where are the articles, books, writings on it speaking about it? If it were so true it would have some paper trail. An example is the recent discovery, a few years ago, of the phrase “from the Father and the Son” in the Nicene creed of an eastern synod held in Seleucia-Ctesiphon 410AD. Just a few years later information about it is everywhere, even on Wikipedia.

No the burden of proof on you who maintains a theory unsubstantiated except by claims and one reference to a book which claims something that generally is absent from any academic source. You are challenging the reality, it is thus your job to prove your position.
Listen, I provided a source without first being asked that I do so. If you are so curious about this scholar’s claims, which I referenced, then you are more than welcome to go to your local library and find the book yourself. He has plenty of footnotes/endnotes. I’ve read the entire book myself, but I’ve already returned it. In fact, it was a book recommended to me by a Catholic on this very site. All you have to do is either turn to the appropriate chapter on Florence, or use the index to search for terms related to Mark. But I’m not going to go further out of my way to satisfy someone who does not seem to appreciate the small courtesy I initially provided.

I also don’t think you really understand academia all that well. Five years isn’t that long. And future works might not even discuss the material directly. A good example of this is Dvornik’s Photian Schism (published in the 1940’s). It is so inclusive and detailed that virtually to this day, it is all most scholars reference when discussing the issue. The plethora of works on the issue before it are no longer read or discussed. Finding only one source isn’t uncommon. This is why I was curious if you have found a recent source that speaks to the contrary.
 
Here’s how he defined “The Catholic Church

Bk 1 ch 10
“the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said”.
Does the Roman Catholic Church possess one belief about limbo?
 
The article says that limbo is " the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal guilt, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone."
But is that the only belief? Is there another belief which says that we can hope that unbaptized children are not excluded from the beatific vision?
steve b:
Originally Posted by steve b View Post
Here’s how he defined “The Catholic Church”

Bk 1 ch 10
“the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said”.
 
No ways. Mark of Ephesus was way off and ambitious.
The argument ad hominem is fallacious you know. It doesn’t matter if you think that he was “ambitious”, a killer of kittens and puppies, or anything else you so wish to think (of course, the objective reality is that he is a Saint, so think away as much as you can, but none of that will change that he intercedes to Christ for the souls of the living—even yours), because the truth of an argument doesn’t depend on the one making it.
He held a ridiculous theory that all the writings of the Latin saints brought forward at Florence , that is near the entire corpus of Latin saints, were forged because he could not explain how such saints could teach the filioque. The Latins proved in great lengths the teaching in their fathers .
An argument, as I reminded you earlier, he only had to resort to because he could not resort to the letter of St. Maximus to Marinus, since the Latins refused to acknowledge its authenticity, even though the Greeks went so far as to propose it to be the grounds of a doctrinal union.
If this revelation were true, articles upon articles, journals and encyclopedias as well as the internet and books would be filled with this information. Yet the opposite situation is reality. Academia does not recognize this “discovery” as worth merit evidently.
You don’t know that. I highly doubt you have assessed the attitude of all of Academia on this subject. Siecienski on the other hand provides a good number of references in his book
In fact Bassarion, bishop of Nicaea and who left the council a roman cardinal, had this to say on the deliberations at the council concerning the filioque :
I am glad that you brought Bessarion up. Earlier in this thread, you wrote that you consider anything that “brings about a numerical nature of principals (first cause, secondary, tertiary etc) from which the Holy Spirit proceeds” to be an heretical understanding of the Filioque. Now are you aware that Bessarion argued that the Son was a secondary cause of the Spirit? He does this insofar as he argues that St. Maximus’ teaching that the Son is not cause of the Holy Spirit should only be understood as excluding the Son from being the first cause of the Spirit, thereby implying that the Son is a secondary kind of cause. Care to explain how Bessarion was not an heretic, according to you?
George Scholarius, however, though he was by no means unacquainted with the philosophy of the Latin Church, had not, as far as is known, been assailed by any previous doubts about the orthodoxy of his own Church. However, he shared Bessarion’s views as to the solidity of the Latin presentation of their doctrine
Scholarios evidently found St. Mark of Ephesus far more convincing than the quotation you present makes it seem, since after the council, he became an ardent anti-unionist under the tutelage of Mark of Ephesus.
 
Chapter 2 doesn’t back up your case at any point. He is only Listen, I provided a source without first being asked that I do so. If you are so curious about this scholar’s claims, which I referenced, then you are more than welcome to go to your local library and find the book yourself. He has plenty of footnotes/endnotes. I’ve read the entire book myself, but I’ve already returned it. In fact, it was a book recommended to me by a Catholic on this very site. All you have to do is either turn to the appropriate chapter on Florence, or use the index to search for terms related to Mark. But I’m not going to go further out of my way to satisfy someone who does not seem to appreciate the small courtesy I initially provided.
Listen your sources need to be substantiated. The burden of prof is on you. Thats my point. If you claim something, adequately back it up. One reference is really not enough. The book might be from 5 years ago but when was the investigation done?
I also don’t think you really understand academia all that well. Five years isn’t that long.
Oh I get that point, yet still there should be a lot more information on it if was what you claimed it to be. Its the modern era, things spread alot quicker. Hence I gave the example of the recent discovery of Seleucia-Ctesiphon to show it was a very recent discovery but information is everywhere about it.
And future works might not even discuss the material directly. A good example of this is Dvornik’s Photian Schism (published in the 1940’s). It is so inclusive and detailed that virtually to this day, it is all most scholars reference when discussing the issue. The plethora of works on the issue before it are no longer read or discussed. Finding only one source isn’t uncommon. This is why I was curious if you have found a recent source that speaks to the contrary.
Sure but unlike your reference, information is everywhere about dvorniks work. Despite his critics who criticize various portions of his work. Information is everywhere.
 
Chapter 2 doesn’t back up your case at any point. He is only talking about prominent bishops of Rome who righteously held to the true faith. He also references more than them though. He is essentially talking about correct faith. He wasn’t speaking of any sort of Church that used a proper adjective.
Actually by giving the list of successors to Peter’s see, in Rome, by name in direct succession, Irenaeus IMV made his case beautifully. He obviously went to that effort because this was already an important point (primacy of authority) to make with the gnostics.

As it turns out his point is also valuable throughout history to make this same point Irenaeus is making. Satan is always sifting and dividing what Jesus established…agreed?
R:
Furthermore, you misunderstand me. I did not claim that capitals were invented. I was only saying the terms “Orthodox” and “Catholic” only became proper adjectives after the Protestant Reformation. Sorry for the confusion.
I didn’t take it the way you thought I did, so don’t worry 😉

while lower case letters, and adjectives etc etc came much later in history,

when we look back on those early centuries and see what WAS written. Irenaeus for example is defending the Catholic Church, by name, and tells us what to look for, how he defines it, and who / where is the authority that everyone is to agree with regardless he says of what one thinks of their own pedigree ( my paraphrase ). That’s important information… would you agree? In the case of Irenaeus he was writing against gnostics. And we know there’s always going to be in every era, someone who challenges the truth .
 
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