Eastern Rite and Orthodox Unity

[zombiember]

The Western Rite is a ministry of the Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America, and in full canonical communion and unity of purpose with the several Orthodox jurisdictions of the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America.There are about twenty Western Rite congregations around the country who worship God in the forms which speak to their hearts, rejoicing to be part of the Universal Church.he Western Rite includes other indiscernible changes that Latin Roman Catholics and most Anglo-Catholics would find to be either familiar or certainly acceptable. As some Latin Rite Roman Catholic parishes as well as Protestant Churches continue their decline by denial of basic Catholic faith, doctrine and worship by turning to inclusive language liturgies, which refer to God as mother and promulgate woman “priests,” many traditional Catholic Christians of both the Roman and Anglican backgrounds are turning to the Orthodox Catholic Church.

 

[Alethiaphile]

I suspect you mean Sts. Cyril and Methodius Russian Byzantine Catholic Community at St. Elizabeth’s.
stelizofhungary.org/cm_page.html

They are not Ruthenian (aka Rusyn), they are Russian. Rev. Fr. Frank used to serve at Holy Protection of the Mother of God. (article on Fr. Chrysostom Frank)

The Ruthenian Parish there, Holy Protection of the Mother of God, is under the Omophor of Bishop Gerald of Van Nuys; the Pastor was up here a little over a year ago for the eparchial retreat and our 50 year celebration kickoff. I fact, the Eparchy seems to be everything Ruthenian west of the mississippi…

Yes, you are correct, my mistake. It was the Russian Catholic Community.

 

[brigantine]

I’m not sure why anyone would be hopeful of a reunion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Before even getting to most of the post schism theological issues to be rectified you have to deal with the post Vatican-2 changes that scare the heck out of Orthodox and many Catholic Converts to Orthodoxy. These are huge obstacles that just can’t be brushed under the rug. There is a thread in apologetics about the Catholic Charismatic’s that somewhat shows the deep divisions that would need to be worked out before you could even get to the meatier subjects. The Liturgy is the very Life of the Orthodox Church so when the Orthodox Church sees innovations to a traditional Liturgy that mimic new protestant services it is skeptical.

If all this modernism could get worked out you now have to deal with the issues surrounding the Papacy. This may be overcome but I really do not see how you will get all the Orthodox Patriarchs to submit their turf to the Pope. Many of the Theological issues involve wording that could be worked out if both parties really wanted this to happen.

After all the other issues are worked out you now have the last issues in that Orthodox Churches are separate Churches that operate much like protestant Churches. They get issues with the mother Church and break off into more “Genuine” “Traditional” Orthodox Churches. Just look at the number of Greek Churches operating within what should be the Greek Orthodox Churches territory. Look at the Churches the EP is seeding in territories of other Patriarchates. I’m not sure how you will ever resolve this when the Orthodox can’t even unite in America. Nationality and power trump spreading the Orthodox Church as a United Church here in America. Its very sad to see!

I just don’t see a reunion of the two Churches anytime soon unless the Lord returns. All is possible with Him! I pray for a reunion because this world needs a united Church!

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

I’m not sure why anyone would be hopeful of a reunion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Are you kidding me!? We should all work to obtain unity for Christianity, among Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, and even the marginals like JW’s and Mormons.

Before even getting to most of the post schism theological issues to be rectified you have to deal with the post Vatican-2 changes that scare the heck out of Orthodox and many Catholic Converts to Orthodoxy.

Hold the phone guy!! First of all I and I am sure many of my Traditionalist Catholic compatriots take offense to that. We do not accept the NO bastardization of the Vatican II. Vatican II’s intent was not to make Catholicism completely pastoral giving certain priests abandon with what they could and could not do, they are infiltrators and pretenders to the Priesthood, and say that will all loving sincerity of being a Hibernian who is sworn to protect the Priesthood. Communion in separate species? and by hand!!!?? The change of the mass into something horrendous, many Catholics are NOT OK with this, they have changed our Churches from sacred places to meeting spaces to quote the great author Michael S Rose. There is many a Roman Catholic will combat this curve that is ruining the Roman Rite, so you are out of line by saying that.

These are huge obstacles that just can’t be brushed under the rug. There is a thread in apologetics about the Catholic Charismatic’s that somewhat shows the deep divisions that would need to be worked out before you could even get to the meatier subjects. The Liturgy is the very Life of the Orthodox Church so when the Orthodox Church sees innovations to a traditional Liturgy that mimic new protestant services it is skeptical.

WHO is brushing it under the rug? Have you ever heard of the Society of Saint Pius X, or FSSP? These are traditionalists dedicated to changing the bastardization of the Church done by certain Bishops and priests, as well as many misguided lay people on parish councils, they are a real big problem!

If all this modernism could get worked out you now have to deal with the issues surrounding the Papacy. This may be overcome but I really do not see how you will get all the Orthodox Patriarchs to submit their turf to the Pope. Many of the Theological issues involve wording that could be worked out if both parties really wanted this to happen

I do not think there is an Eastern Rite parish who has reformed the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom into a mass that plays guitars, gives communion in the hand, ripped out their baptistry and made it a hot tub font, or totally changed the mass to resemble a town hall meeting so again this comment is just off-base if you will. We are NOT talking about the Roman Rite here which is where these offenses to Catholicism have occurred.

After all the other issues are worked out you now have the last issues in that Orthodox Churches are separate Churches that operate much like protestant Churches. They get issues with the mother Church and break off into more “Genuine” “Traditional” Orthodox Churches. Just look at the number of Greek Churches operating within what should be the Greek Orthodox Churches territory. Look at the Churches the EP is seeding in territories of other Patriarchates. I’m not sure how you will ever resolve this when the Orthodox can’t even unite in America. Nationality and power trump spreading the Orthodox Church as a United Church here in America. Its very sad to see!

Yes I see your point on this one, this is why I left Orthodoxy, there is such lack of authority, but the same can be said for the Roman Church in America, which is why I now practice as an Eastern Rite Catholic. At my previous Orthodox parish I was raised in they USE NKJV BIbles, wow, can’t even elaborate on how un-Orthodox that is. They have some other issues I won’t bring up on this thread, but ultimately the Orthodox Church in America is in disarray as well.

I just don’t see a reunion of the two Churches anytime soon unless the Lord returns. All is possible with Him! I pray for a reunion because this world needs a united Church!

This is the kind of attitude that you, I , and the other good folks on this thread need to kill, we need to take action as lay folk and get involved in our Church and her politics, WE CAN DO SOMETHING!!!

 

[brigantine]

Take a deep breath Vernum its going to be alright!

Are you kidding me!? We should all work to obtain unity for Christianity, among Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, and even the marginals like JW’s and Mormons.

Who said we should not work towards unity? Did I say pack in the tent, close shop and talk no more? No I did not think so but being realistic is the way to go. Also JW and Mormons are not even Trinitarian Christians so I’m not sure if they will ever be in talks with the Orthodox. They would need to convert to Orthodoxy as there is noway any “reunion” could take place.

Hold the phone guy!! First of all I and I am sure many of my Traditionalist Catholic compatriots take offense to that. We do not accept the NO bastardization of the Vatican II. Vatican II’s intent was not to make Catholicism completely pastoral giving certain priests abandon with what they could and could not do, they are infiltrators and pretenders to the Priesthood, and say that will all loving sincerity of being a Hibernian who is sworn to protect the Priesthood. Communion in separate species? and by hand!!!?? The change of the mass into something horrendous, many Catholics are NOT OK with this, they have changed our Churches from sacred places to meeting spaces to quote the great author Michael S Rose. There is many a Roman Catholic will combat this curve that is ruining the Roman Rite, so you are out of line by saying that.

Thats great and when you get the changes made you can then talk. Until that time there are things going on in some Catholic Churches that will prevent a reunion. The fact is as far as I can tell, and I’m trying to learn because I have been away from the Catholic Church for many years, The Pope has not outright condemned many changes.

WHO is brushing it under the rug? Have you ever heard of the Society of Saint Pius X, or FSSP? These are traditionalists dedicated to changing the bastardization of the Church done by certain Bishops and priests, as well as many misguided lay people on parish councils, they are a real big problem!

Again, Thats great and I respect those organizations but the fact is the official Church still has things going on that the Orthodox will not except.

I do not think there is an Eastern Rite parish who has reformed the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom into a mass that plays guitars, gives communion in the hand, ripped out their baptistry and made it a hot tub font, or totally changed the mass to resemble a town hall meeting so again this comment is just off-base if you will. We are NOT talking about the Roman Rite here which is where these offenses to Catholicism have occurred.

I’m not sure what your point is? I realize the Eastern Catholics have not changed their Liturgy but correct me if I’m wrong that the EC make up a small portion of the Catholic Church? In anycase it does not take away the fact that there are practices in the LR that would concern Orthodoxy.

Yes I see your point on this one, this is why I left Orthodoxy, there is such lack of authority, but the same can be said for the Roman Church in America, which is why I now practice as an Eastern Rite Catholic. At my previous Orthodox parish I was raised in they USE NKJV BIbles, wow, can’t even elaborate on how un-Orthodox that is. They have some other issues I won’t bring up on this thread, but ultimately the Orthodox Church in America is in disarray as well.

I agree with you on the disarray. The issues with the multiple overlapping jurisdictions seem to be getting worse not better.

This is the kind of attitude that you, I , and the other good folks on this thread need to kill, we need to take action as lay folk and get involved in our Church and her politics, WE CAN DO SOMETHING!!!

I’ve seen almost my entire family leave the Catholic Church because of the changes that occurred post Vatican-II. I’ve seen some signs that the new Pope is looking to return to a traditional form of worship. Just remember though once all the “modernism” issues get worked out there will be a ton of doctrinal issues to get to. I just don’t see reunion anytime soon. I pray I’m wrong and things get worked out but I will not hold my breadth.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m not sure what your point is? I realize the Eastern Catholics have not changed their Liturgy but correct me if I’m wrong that the EC make up a small portion of the Catholic Church?

About 1-1/2%

Of those who can trace their lineage back to Orthodox churches (of the ‘Byzantine’ tradition) we might say approximately 3/4 of one percent.

 

[brigantine]

About 1-1/2%

Of those who can trace their lineage back to Orthodox churches (of the ‘Byzantine’ tradition) we might say approximately 3/4 of one percent.

I knew it was a small number but wow not that small! I think its wonderful that the Eastern Catholics have kept their traditional Liturgy and practices but I’m pretty sure thats not going to make Orthodox feel comfortable with some Western practices.

I’m not trying to be negative just realistic!

 

[Volodymyr]

*The bastardization by Vatican II. These are traditionalists dedicated to changing the bastardization of the Church done by certain Bishops and priests, as well as many misguided lay people on parish councils.

I left Orthodoxy, there is such lack of authority, but the same can be said for the Roman Church in America, which is why I now practice as an Eastern Rite Catholic. The Orthodox Church in America is in disarray as well.

Take action as lay folk and get involved in our Church and her politics,*

Roman Catolic church is bastardized (which I understand to mean in American English made worse or spoiled) by Council approved by infallible Bishop of Rome. Orthodoxy has no authority - but the authority you want to have is of lay persons who involve in church.

Such lay involvement is happened in Orthodoxy. My own son is laity from city Belgorod and was member of eparchyal delegation to Local Council which elected Patriarch Kirill. This is Orthodox Church where laity people make difference. But if you want authority (supreme dictatorial universal) you should adhere to Catolic - but then accept bastardization by supreme authority which you cannot change.

Big problem!!

 

[brigantine]

I think the issues you bring up Volodymyr are the issues I’m personally struggling with! Its hard to discern the correct path so I’m praying a lot and asking the Lord and the Theotokos’s guidance!

 

[SyroMalankara]

*The bastardization by Vatican II. These are traditionalists dedicated to changing the bastardization of the Church done by certain Bishops and priests, as well as many misguided lay people on parish councils.

I left Orthodoxy, there is such lack of authority, but the same can be said for the Roman Church in America, which is why I now practice as an Eastern Rite Catholic. The Orthodox Church in America is in disarray as well.

Take action as lay folk and get involved in our Church and her politics,*

Roman Catolic church is bastardized (which I understand to mean in American English made worse or spoiled) by Council approved by infallible Bishop of Rome. Orthodoxy has no authority - but the authority you want to have is of lay persons who involve in church.

Such lay involvement is happened in Orthodoxy. My own son is laity from city Belgorod and was member of eparchyal delegation to Local Council which elected Patriarch Kirill. This is Orthodox Church where laity people make difference. But if you want authority (supreme dictatorial universal) you should adhere to Catolic - but then accept bastardization by supreme authority which you cannot change.

Big problem!!

The other side is that politics gets heated from the bishops, down to the priests, and the laity on who gets elected to the highest throne - popularity contests and $$ play a big role - etc…

There needs to be proper balance - where that lies is anyone’s guess

 

[crazzeto]

*The bastardization by Vatican II. These are traditionalists dedicated to changing the bastardization of the Church done by certain Bishops and priests, as well as many misguided lay people on parish councils.

I left Orthodoxy, there is such lack of authority, but the same can be said for the Roman Church in America, which is why I now practice as an Eastern Rite Catholic. The Orthodox Church in America is in disarray as well.

Take action as lay folk and get involved in our Church and her politics,*

Roman Catolic church is bastardized (which I understand to mean in American English made worse or spoiled) by Council approved by infallible Bishop of Rome. Orthodoxy has no authority - but the authority you want to have is of lay persons who involve in church.

Such lay involvement is happened in Orthodoxy. My own son is laity from city Belgorod and was member of eparchyal delegation to Local Council which elected Patriarch Kirill. This is Orthodox Church where laity people make difference. But if you want authority (supreme dictatorial universal) you should adhere to Catolic - but then accept bastardization by supreme authority which you cannot change.

Big problem!!

Pardon, but what Bastardization in Vatican II? Please point this out exactly, from the documents produced by the counsole them selves. If you can not, then I suggest that the problems you are talking about do not exist with in the context of Vatican II. Rather, the problems exist with in some ultraliberals getting too much power in the 70’s and 80’s and attempting to make radical changes in the church, using a bastardized mis-informed interpetation of Vatican II documents as a justification. This has been on the mend for a while now, the process was started by Pope John Paul II, and is being continued in ernest by Benideict XVI.

I would suggest that demacracy in faith is a bad idea. The lay should not get to vote on theology.

 

[Harpazo]

Pardon, but what Bastardization in Vatican II? Please point this out exactly, from the documents produced by the counsole them selves. If you can not, then I suggest that the problems you are talking about do not exist with in the context of Vatican II. Rather, the problems exist with in some ultraliberals getting too much power in the 70’s and 80’s and attempting to make radical changes in the church, using a bastardized mis-informed interpetation of Vatican II documents as a justification. This has been on the mend for a while now, the process was started by Pope John Paul II, and is being continued in ernest by Benideict XVI.

I would suggest that demacracy in faith is a bad idea. The lay should not get to vote on theology.

I think you misunderstood Volodymyr. The laity does not get a vote in theology.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[crazzeto]

I think you misunderstood Volodymyr. The laity does not get a vote in theology.

In Christ,
Andrew

the the orthodox community suffers the same “problem” the Catholic Church does. It accepts the interpetations of doctrine laid out by it’s governing body, in our case the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him. So the point of his post is sort of lost on me.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know which part of Vatican II did all this so called “bastardizing” of faith?

 

[brigantine]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know which part of Vatican II did all this so called “bastardizing” of faith?

I think whats being talked about here is the results of Vatican-II not the letter of what was written there. Its the results that the Church has had to live with the last 40 years .

 

[crazzeto]

I think whats being talked about here is the results of Vatican-II not the letter of what was written there. Its the results that the Church has had to live with the last 40 years .

Every major Ecunemical cousole for a period of time after the counsol concludes managed to wreak more confusion than clarification as the immediate result of the counsole. All of them, including the 7 or 8 (can’t remember the number) you guys accept from before Schism.

With the Grace of God, and good leaders (such as the current Pope) these things have always correct. How is this in anyway an issue for the Church? She’s weathered much worse than the aftermath of Vatican II.

 

[Bbigam]

I think whats being talked about here is the results of Vatican-II not the letter of what was written there. Its the results that the Church has had to live with the last 40 years .

The problem isn’t the results of Vatican II, the problem is the crazy stuff some people have done falsely claiming it was called for by Vatican II.

 

[brigantine]

The problem isn’t the results of Vatican II, the problem is the crazy stuff some people have done falsely claiming it was called for by Vatican II.

Its still the results of Vatican-II. I’m not saying it was proscribed by the council but the wording was vague enough and the lack of leadership was enough to allow what happened. Only now with this new Pope is it being corrected. I have the utmost respect for Pope Benedict XVI!

 

[crazzeto]

Its still the results of Vatican-II. I’m not saying it was proscribed by the council but the wording was vague enough and the lack of leadership was enough to allow what happened. Only now with this new Pope is it being corrected. I have the utmost respect for Pope Benedict XVI!

That’s not quite entirely true, JPII realized the problem late in his Papucy and began the process which is being continued in spades. I do share your respect for the current pontiff, I have a feeling we have 2 Popes in a row who will be known as “The Great” for different reasons.

 

[malphono]

Its still the results of Vatican-II. I’m not saying it was proscribed by the council but the wording was vague enough and the lack of leadership was enough to allow what happened. Only now with this new Pope is it being corrected. I have the utmost respect for Pope Benedict XVI!

FWIW, I agree. From my perspective, it’s quite true.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

That’s not quite entirely true, JPII realized the problem late in his Papucy and began the process which is being continued in spades. I do share your respect for the current pontiff, I have a feeling we have 2 Popes in a row who will be known as “The Great” for different reasons.

Vatican II called for more pastoral authority, this is simply wrong. And many a Priest and Bishop are responsible in America for watering down the faith in the name of Vatican II. Vatican II no is not inherently the problem, but it created a lot of problems in Catholicism. This pastoral ****, because that’s what it is, has got to go. And I was the one who originally said Vatican II bastardized the faith, not that gentlemen there. Besides his post is a bit full of broken English so I think you actually misunderstood a lot of it. What he was saying is asking me why I feel the way I do about Vat-2. The New Order mass is simply appalling, this is NOT OK. IT is NOT OK to change a Holy Mass that had Tradition since the early Church involved into something modern and Heaven forgive us, Protestant. Which is the way many modern Catholic masses are being conducted. Churches are being constructed as abominations that fail to Catechize, Evangelize, or draw in a curious pilgrim off the street because they can feel the Holiness that is God’s house. If Vatican II has done any good it has awakened Traditional Catholics with a vengeance, and we won’t stop until the Church is put back right. Now I wasn’t saying like our good friend with the broken English misunderstood. I didn’t say that laity should have MORE of a say, I said they should have LESS of a say. That Parish councils have ruined aspects of Church architecture, Church teaching, and aspects of the Holy Mass or Liturgy. This is partly because many Catholics are uneducated in America about how to be a faithful Catholic, and what it means to be traditionally Catholic. They have had bad experiences in Catholic schools, and think the Church needs to change for the world, to be more accepting. This is utterly false, as the world must change for Christ and his Bride. WE WILL FIX this problem, we will hold those who are responsible, fully responsible for the damage done, this includes Priests, laity, Bishops even who have failed or erred in their duty to the Faith. I believe honestly that the Holy Father is behind such an initiative, the Vatican is just waiting for certain Catholic societies, lay or otherwise to implement these things. We are not Sedevacantist, we are not dissenters of the Church, we are repairmen, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against our Church.