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Hesychios
Guest
Well put.
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VerumAdInfernos
Guest
=/ But it is up to us to find that line, and make the mends.
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Hesychios
Guest
The rub is that most EC were not actually able to keep their traditional Liturgy and practices substantially intact. They are now attempting to restore these, but there has been a lot of water under that bridge, so much of the EC lay community actually have no memory or knowledge of these. Once the hierarchy mandates a restoration, they may feel as though an Orthodox (read: alien) tradition is being imposed upon them. They may have no immediate understanding that their ancestors/predecessors followed these practices. They have long since moved to another mindset and another set of familiar customs (and spirituality).
The Orthodox are fully aware of this, and are not impressed. (Eastern Catholicism has been a rich source of Orthodox vocations and the flow of information has been steady and strong for all of these years.)
In other words, if it can happen once it can happen again, and Orthodox are well aware of that.
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brigantine
Guest
I did not know all that. Thanks for the great info. I grew up Catholic and for the first 26 years of my life remained so, but never knew much about the ECs.
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Tomb54
Guest
I would like to say something on this – There are concerns happening in the Latin Rite that have people in the Latin Rite concerned not just the EO. The modernist since the 2nd Vatican council used parts of it to further their agenda by their interpretation of it and not how it was meant to be. The last 2 Popes are trying to reign in these rebels New Order modernist.Take a deep breath Vernum its going to be alright!
I’m not sure what your point is? I realize the Eastern Catholics have not changed their Liturgy but correct me if I’m wrong that the EC make up a small portion of the Catholic Church? In anycase it does not take away the fact that there are practices in the LR that would concern Orthodoxy.
I agree with you on the disarray. The issues with the multiple overlapping jurisdictions seem to be getting worse not better.
I’ve seen almost my entire family leave the Catholic Church because of the changes that occurred post Vatican-II. I’ve seen some signs that the new Pope is looking to return to a traditional form of worship. Just remember though once all the “modernism” issues get worked out there will be a ton of doctrinal issues to get to. I just don’t see reunion anytime soon. I pray I’m wrong and things get worked out but I will not hold my breadth.
It would be nice if the EO would at least open the door a little to allow Catholic to go to some EO Masses and join in the Eucharist if they needed to while traveling.
.
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Harpazo
Guest
The position of the Holy Orthodox Church has been (and always will be) that if a non- Orthodox Christian wishes to receive the Holy Eucharist at Divine Liturgy, then they must become Orthodox. We cannot commune those of different churches or faiths. I know that you feel otherwise. However, heterodox are more than welcome to attend Divine Liturgy at any time. Though, they cannot receive the sacraments. For the similar reasons that Rome will not commune Anglo-Catholics.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Aramis
Guest
In some places, that happens quietly on the ground, and the bishops consider it an economia in the hands of the local pastors.
In others, albeit amongst the Oriental Orthodox not amongst the Eastern Orthodox Communion, there is actual treaty providing for intercommunion of the faithful without full communion of the churches.
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Harpazo
Guest
This is only on an extremely limited scale, however, and in one section of the world (namely, the Middle East). You will NOT see Copts communing Latins in North America, for instance.
I’m fairly sure the Chalcedonian Orthodox will commune Catholic and Non-Chalcedonian in the Middle East as well for the same reason the non-Chalcedonians would, but in limited circumstances of course.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Remember that this is a voice from the outside so mileage may vary.
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dvdjs
Guest
Your tempered kindness, Br. David, is inspiring.
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Aramis
Guest
OCA and Copts both have done so in the US. I have been communed in both OCA and Coptic Orthodox parishes in the US, and in each case, with the knowing permission of the pastor due to my inability to get to a Catholic parish.This is only on an extremely limited scale, however, and in one section of the world (namely, the Middle East). You will NOT see Copts communing Latins in North America, for instance.
I’m fairly sure the Chalcedonian Orthodox will commune Catholic and Non-Chalcedonian in the Middle East as well for the same reason the non-Chalcedonians would, but in limited circumstances of course.
In Christ,
Andrew
It may be against institutional policy, but it can and does happen.
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djkane01220
Guest
When my grandmother was a small child back in the 1920’s (she is 92 now). The roman catholic parish was about 10 miles away from where they lived and the entire community of about 50 Italians were Roman catholic and attended the same church. However at times during the winter it was near impossible to get to the roman catholic church. However only a few blocks away was an Assyrian church of the east. The bishop of the Catholic Church had an agreement with the ACOTE that stated if the Italian’s could not attend their own parish for any reason that they could attend the ACOTE and fullfill their Sunday obligation and receive communion. They didn’t attend the ACOTE very often but when they did they were welcomed by priest and parish alike.
What this shows is there has always been some inter-communion dating pretty fair back. Although I am pretty sure the OOC and EO have stricter regulations then the ACOTE.
What this shows is there has always been some inter-communion dating pretty fair back. Although I am pretty sure the OOC and EO have stricter regulations then the ACOTE.
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trophybearer
Guest
Where is this city in which you can find a Coptic Orthodox church or even an OCA church but not a Catholic one within reasonable distance?
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Tomb54
Guest
Even in the Catholic Church Latin Rite they will only say they will allow it for Catholic to go to any Orthodox in limited circumstances like on vacation and can’t find a Catholic Church but then the Orthodox usually will not allow it anyway/This is only on an extremely limited scale, however, and in one section of the world (namely, the Middle East). You will NOT see Copts communing Latins in North America, for instance.
I’m fairly sure the Chalcedonian Orthodox will commune Catholic and Non-Chalcedonian in the Middle East as well for the same reason the non-Chalcedonians would, but in limited circumstances of course.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Hesychios
Guest
Hello brother David,
I have been a Latin Catholic, an Eastern Catholic and an Orthodox Catholic. What is your point of mentioning that I am “outside”, is my testimony not acceptable? What if I had posted this while still a Byzantine Catholic (I could have), would you have no other objection than this single one you mentioned?
Do you have issues with my position on this subject, other than I no longer am a card carrying member of the Eastern Catholic fraternity? I make no secret of it.
Is my statement less accurate than “*its wonderful that the Eastern Catholics have kept their traditional Liturgy and practices *”, also from “a voice from the outside” which you did not see fit to comment on?
So just what exactly are you trying to say here?
I have been a Latin Catholic, an Eastern Catholic and an Orthodox Catholic. What is your point of mentioning that I am “outside”, is my testimony not acceptable? What if I had posted this while still a Byzantine Catholic (I could have), would you have no other objection than this single one you mentioned?
Do you have issues with my position on this subject, other than I no longer am a card carrying member of the Eastern Catholic fraternity? I make no secret of it.
Is my statement less accurate than “*its wonderful that the Eastern Catholics have kept their traditional Liturgy and practices *”, also from “a voice from the outside” which you did not see fit to comment on?
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Harpazo
Guest
The Orthodox would certainly allow them to attend Divine Liturgy. There is no one standing at the door that asks if you have a club card and denies you entry if you don’t have one.
They just would not be able to receive Communion.
In Christ,
Andrew
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trophybearer
Guest
My parish has, among other pamphlets available upon entering the church, one explaining why communion is limited only to Orthodox Christians in good standing. You actually managed to find a Coptic Orthodox parish and there was not a Catholic church within a reasonable distance? I mean, unless you were in this place for an extended period of time I can’t imagine why these priests were so concerned at your inability to recieve communion in your own Church for a week or two.
I guess those pastors are answerable to their own heirarchs, although I can’t pretend I’m not a bit saddened at their apparent interest in ecuminism over Orthodoxy.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Who are we, mere mortals, to judge? Let those who are entrusted to the Law take care of matters of the law. We are called to other matters, such as taking care of the poor, the hungry and the widow.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I have issues with Orthodox individuals speaking out as experts on the inner workings of the Catholic Church and its practices, especially when those individual have chosen to leave the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church.
I do not have issues with that choice, as I believe it is a matter of conscience, one that have struggled with in the past, but the choice has been made.
Just as my being a Carmelite. I have voice within the Order, yes it is limited as I am in temporary vows but when (God Willing) I make my final profession I will have full active voice within the Order. If then I chose to leave I would lose all voice within the Order.
I made this comment for exactly the reason stated within it. You are on the outside of the Catholic Church by choice.
While your testimony is just that, yours, it does not necessarily refelect everyones, especially those who have chosen to stay.
Not everyone notices a posters religious affiliation and not all users supply one.
Not everyone is aware of a posters history or bias.
Anecdotal evidence is not that reliable.
To counter your experience I put forward the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.
As well as a handful of Byzantine (Ruthenian) Greek Catholic Churches that I have attended.
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Hesychios
Guest
Hello brother David,
If I said “the sky is blue” would you respond with “your testimony is just that, yours, it does not necessarily refelect everyones”.
If you disagree with something I have said, just come out and say "I disagree with … ". Don’t impugn my motives. It is like back-biting.
I said "The rub is that most EC were not actually able to keep their traditional Liturgy and practices substantially intact. " Do you disagree?
http://www.melkite.org/LATIN-IN.jpg
May God bless you in your vocation.
Your issue seems to be that I have left the Latin Catholic/Eastern Catholic church, not with what I have actually said.
This is just bilge water.
If I said “the sky is blue” would you respond with “your testimony is just that, yours, it does not necessarily refelect everyones”.
If you disagree with something I have said, just come out and say "I disagree with … ". Don’t impugn my motives. It is like back-biting.
I would agree that in the ‘home territories’ the Melkites are the closest to their Orthodox forebears.
I said "The rub is that most EC were not actually able to keep their traditional Liturgy and practices substantially intact. " Do you disagree?
http://www.melkite.org/LATIN-IN.jpg
May God bless you in your vocation.
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