Eastern Rite Churches, the Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary

[sydneycatholic]

The do not reject this dogma as regard it as unnecessary. In the Eastern theology, shared by both the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox, there is no original sin, but rather a sort of defect or wound in human nature due to the sin of our first parents. In this sense, their theology never veered into the debates in the West about since which point in time the Mother of God was devoid of original sin. As a matter of fact, the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox have not even debated whether the Mother of God was devoid of such wounded nature, but have always believed that she has always been sinless.

Pax Christi

Sorry you are mistaken.

I have come across some Protestants who are becoming Orthodox of various Orthodox Churches. Which is great, praise God, since it brings them closer (I would imagine) as our Sister Churches (according to the Post Vat-2 documents).

I absolutely love all the Orthodox and feel so in tune with them, just as with the Eastern Catholics in union with Rome. The Marian devotions are deep but I cannot grasp how in such devotions they can hold onto Our Mother being contemplated as being tainted by Sin in the slightest at any point in time. Sorry if I am repeating myself.

A Protestant considering Orthodox conversion posted this video presentation by, I think, a Greek Orthodox priest discussing the Blessed Mother.

Orthodoxy 101 - The Virgin Mary and the Saints
youtube.com/watch?v=LKrojMK6Y_o

Some of these Protestants-interested-in-Orthodoxy seem more capable of “understanding” the Orthodox concept of Mother Mary somehow “needing a savior.”

This “needing a savior” appears to me to border on the blasphemous since She carried Salvation within Her. I’ve always believed Our Mother was saved at Her conception. Not after Her birth.

So this was a video one of these Protestants posted on one of the forums (not an Orthodox forum mind you, a generic Christian forum).

The more I delve into Marian devotions the more I find myself baffled at how the Orthodox can even contemplate the Blessed Mother at any point in time was affected by Sin.

Do the Eastern Catholics also reject the Immaculate Conception like the Orthodox do? Are there any Eastern or Oriental Orthodox that do hold onto the Immaculate Conception?

The 100th year Anniversary of the most profound Marian apparition - Our Lady of Fatima - is Next Year, 13 October 2017, who revealed Herself to be Our Lady of the Rosary.

Look at how much Our Lady loves Russia. I feel a spiritual connection to Russia because of Our Lady. Maybe She appeared at Fatima not only to help bring the Eastern Orthodox, especially the Russians back into unity, but to have them accept the correct view of Mary as conceived without sin.

Are you familiar with what Our Lady of Fatima requested and the 5 Blasphemies committed against Her, in particular against Her Immaculate Heart??

Have you heard about Fr. Gruner’s Fatima Apostolate now run by Chris Ferrara, fatima.org ?
…
.
I did a quick search and these are the 5 blasphemies:
catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/fatima.htm

"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
(1) Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
(2) Blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity.
(3) Blasphemies against her Divine Maternity and at the same time the refusal to recognize her as the Mother of all mankind,
(4) Blasphemies of those who seek openly to foster in the hearts of children indifference or contempt and even hatred for this Immaculate Mother.
(5) The offenses of those who directly outrage Her in her holy images.

“Here then, My Daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary [My Mother] causes Me to ask for this little act of reparation and by means of it, moves My mercy to forgive those souls who had the misfortune of offending her. As for you, try without ceasing, with all your prayers and sacrifices, to move Me to mercy toward those poor souls.”

Spoken by Our Savior in 1930 to Sister Lucia, these words and others given afterwards reveal to the world a most surprising truth, one replete with imperative significance for mankind. However, despite their importance, they have had little impact upon the faithful, remaining virtually unnoticed for over a half-century, a hidden gem in the vast spiritual treasure now known as Fatima."
…

If Fatima was not so important, would the papacy going back a number of popes be consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima, and would the entire world continue to be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as well as individual dioceses by bishops??

The Melkite Patriarch requested the Statue of Our Lady of Fatima to go to Syria to help protect the persecuted Christians there. And it went, from Portugal to Syria last year during the feast of Our Lady of Fatima.

Think about it… this is not a minor matter when you look at this in context. I am only trying to understand what I guess so many people before me have tried to make sense of.

Separating the issue of the valid Consecration of Russia (which is ambiguous), we still end up with the Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and how it is not universally accepted by the Apostolic Succession Churches. And I’m so confused and don’t know what to think.

I wonder if it was raised in the recent meeting of Pope Francis and Moscow Patriarch Kirill…

 

[sydneycatholic]

Orthodox theology has no requirement for Mary being born ‘immaculate’ in order to live a life free from sin.

Hi prodromos,

Thanks for your reply.

I think I am grasping this.

You are saying that while the Blessed Virgin Mary, or the Theotokos, is regarded as not having been Immaculately Conceived, that when She entered the world, she was born with original sin?

If so, how did She have this “original sin” removed? Doesn’t baptism do that for us? The Blessed Mother was never baptized? I can’t get my head around this.

I don’t mean to ask you for a huge reply, I am just trying to get my head around the Orthodox position in view of the rejection of the Immaculate Conception.

And how that can be reconciled theologically with the Blessed Mother then being regarded as being Sinless.

We are all born with sin. I’ve believed the only human not born with sin was the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Augustine]

Sorry you are mistaken.

From your long reply, it doesn’t that I am mistaken at all, as it is a long non sequitur.

Pax Christi

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Sorry you are mistaken.

I have come across some Protestants who are becoming Orthodox of various Orthodox Churches. Which is great, praise God, since it brings them closer (I would imagine) as our Sister Churches (according to the Post Vat-2 documents).

I absolutely love all the Orthodox and feel so in tune with them, just as with the Eastern Catholics in union with Rome. The Marian devotions are deep but I cannot grasp how in such devotions they can hold onto Our Mother being contemplated as being tainted by Sin in the slightest at any point in time. Sorry if I am repeating myself.

A Protestant considering Orthodox conversion posted this video presentation by, I think, a Greek Orthodox priest discussing the Blessed Mother.

Some of these Protestants-interested-in-Orthodoxy seem more capable of “understanding” the Orthodox concept of Mother Mary somehow “needing a savior.”

This “needing a savior” appears to me to border on the blasphemous since She carried Salvation within Her. I’ve always believed Our Mother was saved at Her conception. Not after Her birth.

/…/

The 100th year Anniversary of the most profound Marian apparition - Our Lady of Fatima - is Next Year, 13 October 2017, who revealed Herself to be Our Lady of the Rosary.

Look at how much Our Lady loves Russia. I feel a spiritual connection to Russia because of Our Lady. Maybe She appeared at Fatima not only to help bring the Eastern Orthodox, especially the Russians back into unity, but to have them accept the correct view of Mary as conceived without sin.

Are you familiar with what Our Lady of Fatima requested and the 5 Blasphemies committed against Her, in particular against Her Immaculate Heart??

Have you heard about Fr. Gruner’s Fatima Apostolate now run by Chris Ferrara, fatima.org ?
…
.
I did a quick search and these are the 5 blasphemies:

"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
(1) Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
(2) Blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity.
(3) Blasphemies against her Divine Maternity and at the same time the refusal to recognize her as the Mother of all mankind,
(4) Blasphemies of those who seek openly to foster in the hearts of children indifference or contempt and even hatred for this Immaculate Mother.
(5) The offenses of those who directly outrage Her in her holy images.

“Here then, My Daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary [My Mother] causes Me to ask for this little act of reparation and by means of it, moves My mercy to forgive those souls who had the misfortune of offending her. As for you, try without ceasing, with all your prayers and sacrifices, to move Me to mercy toward those poor souls.”

Spoken by Our Savior in 1930 to Sister Lucia, these words and others given afterwards reveal to the world a most surprising truth, one replete with imperative significance for mankind. However, despite their importance, they have had little impact upon the faithful, remaining virtually unnoticed for over a half-century, a hidden gem in the vast spiritual treasure now known as Fatima."
…

If Fatima was not so important, would the papacy going back a number of popes be consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima, and would the entire world continue to be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as well as individual dioceses by bishops??

The Melkite Patriarch requested the Statue of Our Lady of Fatima to go to Syria to help protect the persecuted Christians there. And it went, from Portugal to Syria last year during the feast of Our Lady of Fatima.

Think about it… this is not a minor matter when you look at this in context. I am only trying to understand what I guess so many people before me have tried to make sense of.

Separating the issue of the valid Consecration of Russia (which is ambiguous), we still end up with the Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and how it is not universally accepted by the Apostolic Succession Churches. And I’m so confused and don’t know what to think.

I wonder if it was raised in the recent meeting of Pope Francis and Moscow Patriarch Kirill…

I have no doubt you are confused and do not know what to think. Your theology appears extremely flawed. First, if I am reading correctly what you are trying to say, you are trying to impose theological concepts that are distinctly Roman upon the Eastern Orthodox. That in itself is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and is of poor avail to both sides.

Assuredly, the Blessed Virgin needed to be saved. This is one of the reasons that the Immaculate Conception was a disputed question on the Roman side for so long…in order to theologically resolve the issue. The problem is overcome through application of the theological concept of prevenient grace, as is made clear in western Mariology. Thus the Virgin Mary is redeemed in a singular way because of her singular role in salvation history. All her privileges and prerogatives, as Rome has articulated, stem singularly from being the Theotokos.

The whole issue of Fatima is private revelation, which the Roman Church has said is worthy of human credence, but it is not an article of the faith, does not oblige the faithful in any way, and does not in any way inform Catholic theology. Rather, that that the messages mirror Catholic theology was an indication of its authenticity…not the other way around.

The papacy is not consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima although Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis had/have a devotion to the Mother of Jesus under that title.

As for Father Gruner, Rome answered him. Repeatedly.

May I suggest that you apply yourself to the actual study of authentic Mariology as opposed to the paths that I gather you are pursuing.

 

[prodromos]

We are all born with sin. I’ve believed the only human not born with sin was the Blessed Virgin Mary.

No one is born with sin. We are all born mortal.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Mary was born mortal, just like every one of us, but unlike most, she was so full of virtue that she did not sin.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

The fact that they have valid sacraments and Apostolic succession does not mean that they profess the true Divine Faith or have legitimate authority. Any bishop can defect and then continue to ordain more bishops and priests and teach them according to his own private convictions. That is what happened to the churches in the east. That is why your church, a sister church of Rome, was established - to provide a home for those in the east who wished to re-unite with Rome and who professed the true Faith where they could continue their own legitimate traditions (small t) and govern themselves ( Under the authority of the Pope who has universal jurisdiction).

Converting others to become Catholic is one of the main purposes and duties of the Church and that means absolutely everyone. The Church authorities are seeking to convert the E.O. as a whole so that they would be sister churches again as before the schism. They would still have to accept the universal authority of the Pope as all Catholics must. This effort does not remove the responsibility to attempt to convert others individually. It could sadly be that the E.O. as a whole never convert. I do not oppose ecumenism in any way but I do not know of anything in Scripture or Tradition which tells us there will be no separated churches or ‘ecclesial communities’ left on the last day because they have all accepted the teachings and authority of the Church.

Edit: When I wrote the above I was under the impression you were a badly informed Eastern Catholic but I think that you are an Eastern Orthodox, am I right?

I think some humility is in order.

 

[prodromos]

Hi prodromos,

Thanks for your reply.

I think I am grasping this.

You are saying that while the Blessed Virgin Mary, or the Theotokos, is regarded as not having been Immaculately Conceived, that when She entered the world, she was born with original sin?

If so, how did She have this “original sin” removed? Doesn’t baptism do that for us? The Blessed Mother was never baptized? I can’t get my head around this.

I don’t mean to ask you for a huge reply, I am just trying to get my head around the Orthodox position in view of the rejection of the Immaculate Conception.

And how that can be reconciled theologically with the Blessed Mother then being regarded as being Sinless.

We are all born with sin. I’ve believed the only human not born with sin was the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Have a read through the following link which was written by a contemporary Orthodox Saint, the wonderworker Bishop John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco.
I hope it makes clear the Orthodox position and why we reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

trueorthodoxy.info/apo_stjohnmaximovitch_orthodox_veneration_Mother_God.shtml

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Excerpt from the Joint Declaration of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia with emphases added.

The effort in Rome’s promotion of Christian Unity is for restoration of unity between Catholic and Orthodox…not conversion.

Saint John Paul II asked the theological community to propose new ways in which the Petrine Ministry could be exercised for the service of unity instead of hampering unity…and this search is very much on-going. The papacy in the future may look much more like it did in 431 than 1931 – with a much more synodal Church that evokes the Patristic Era than the Medieval Church or the Church of the 18th and 19th centuries.

I am touched to see many themes articulated by Saint John Paul II – that we all belong to Christ…that in our midst is the Holy Spirit, who is at work and who overcomes historical and canonical divisions…and that the gifts among us are from Christ, who is the Divine Bridegroom of the Church.

*1. By God the Father’s will, from which all gifts come, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the help of the Holy Spirit Consolator, we, Pope Francis and Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, have met today in Havana. We give thanks to God, glorified in the Trinity, for this meeting, the first in history.

It is with joy that we have met like brothers in the Christian faith who encounter one another “to speak face to face” (2 Jn 12), from heart to heart, to discuss the mutual relations between the Churches, the crucial problems of our faithful, and the outlook for the progress of human civilization.

1. Our fraternal meeting has taken place in Cuba, at the crossroads of North and South, East and West. It is from this island, the symbol of the hopes of the “New World” and the dramatic events of the history of the twentieth century, that we address our words to all the peoples of Latin America and of the other continents.

It is a source of joy that the Christian faith is growing here in a dynamic way. The powerful religious potential of Latin America, its centuries–old Christian tradition, grounded in the personal experience of millions of people, are the pledge of a great future for this region.

1. By meeting far from the longstanding disputes of the “Old World”, we experience with a particular sense of urgency the need for the shared labour of Catholics and Orthodox, who are called, with gentleness and respect, to give an explanation to the world of the hope in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15).
2. We thank God for the gifts received from the coming into the world of His only Son. We share the same spiritual Tradition of the first millennium of Christianity. The witnesses of this Tradition are the Most Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and the saints we venerate. Among them are innumerable martyrs who have given witness to their faithfulness to Christ and have become the “seed of Christians”.
3. Notwithstanding this shared Tradition of the first ten centuries, for nearly one thousand years Catholics and Orthodox have been deprived of communion in the Eucharist. We have been divided by wounds caused by old and recent conflicts, by differences inherited from our ancestors, in the understanding and expression of our faith in God, one in three Persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are pained by the loss of unity, the outcome of human weakness and of sin, which has occurred despite the priestly prayer of Christ the Saviour: “So that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you … so that they may be one, as we are one” (Jn 17:21).
4. Mindful of the permanence of many obstacles, it is our hope that our meeting may contribute to the re–establishment of this unity willed by God, for which Christ prayed. May our meeting inspire Christians throughout the world to pray to the Lord with renewed fervour for the full unity of all His disciples. In a world which yearns not only for our words but also for tangible gestures, may this meeting be a sign of hope for all people of goodwill!

/…/
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/02/12/joint_declaration_of_pope_francis_and_patriarch_kirill/1208117

 

[recentrevert]

The effort in Rome’s promotion of Christian Unity is for restoration of unity between Catholic and Orthodox…not conversion.

[/INDENT]

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/02/12/joint_declaration_of_pope_francis_and_patriarch_kirill/1208117

Father, can you please tell me clearly how there can be a restoration of unity between E.O. and the Church without them accepting papal primacy and all other teachings of the Church? It is absolutely impossible. Only by believing the same Faith and accepting the legitimate spiritual authority Christ instituted can we be truly united. If the E.O. do this then they have converted - they have gone from rejecting Catholic teaching and authority to accepting it. I am sure the documents of Vatican II say that we must try to convert individuals AND restore unity between separated churches and communities.

 

[sydneycatholic]

Father, can you please tell me clearly how there can be a restoration of unity between E.O. and the Church without them accepting papal primacy and all other teachings of the Church? It is absolutely impossible. Only by believing the same Faith and accepting the legitimate spiritual authority Christ instituted can we be truly united. If the E.O. do this then they have converted - they have gone from rejecting Catholic teaching and authority to accepting it. I am sure the documents of Vatican II say that we must try to convert individuals AND restore unity between separated churches and communities.

Forgive me for jumping in, but I just read Father’s response to me, and I can understand that unity may occur by this method:

“Saint John Paul II asked the theological community to propose new ways in which the Petrine Ministry could be exercised for the service of unity instead of hampering unity…and this search is very much on-going. The papacy in the future may look much more like it did in 431 than 1931 – with a much more synodal Church that evokes the Patristic Era than the Medieval Church or the Church of the 18th and 19th centuries.”

I just read about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and how it seems to have been a Roman “excess” for want of a better word.

As for the primacy of Peter, I’ll let Father answer you on that. Maybe think more along the lines of what the Church was like in 431. Did Rome have “primacy” or “first among equals” I can imagine will be the arguments.

But I have to say, if you keep on insisting the Orthodox need to be “converted”, it truly will end up only alienating and offending the Orthodox.

The Orthodox have been around since the beginning and I am starting to see from their perspective. And it only took reading this link that was sent to me from the poster ‘prodromos’ re the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. trueorthodoxy.info/apo_stjohnmaximovitch_orthodox_veneration_Mother_God.shtml

My apologies for “butting in”, but I am starting to understand what Father said to me in a response - that I was (and you may be) placing Roman “square pegs” into Orthodox “round circles” or vice versa.

I have been praying for the healing and Recommunion of East and West for some time.

I’ll end with the Jesus prayer that is popular among the Eastern churches and the Orthodox,
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a Sinner.

 

[sydneycatholic]

Excerpt from the Joint Declaration of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia with emphases added.

The effort in Rome’s promotion of Christian Unity is for restoration of unity between Catholic and Orthodox…not conversion.

Saint John Paul II asked the theological community to propose new ways in which the Petrine Ministry could be exercised for the service of unity instead of hampering unity…and this search is very much on-going. The papacy in the future may look much more like it did in 431 than 1931 – with a much more synodal Church that evokes the Patristic Era than the Medieval Church or the Church of the 18th and 19th centuries.

I am touched to see many themes articulated by Saint John Paul II – that we all belong to Christ…that in our midst is the Holy Spirit, who is at work and who overcomes historical and canonical divisions…and that the gifts among us are from Christ, who is the Divine Bridegroom of the Church.

*1. By God the Father’s will, from which all gifts come, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the help of the Holy Spirit Consolator, we, Pope Francis and Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, have met today in Havana. We give thanks to God, glorified in the Trinity, for this meeting, the first in history.

It is with joy that we have met like brothers* in the Christian faith who encounter one another “to speak face to face” (2 Jn 12), from heart to heart, to discuss the mutual relations between the Churches, the crucial problems of our faithful, and the outlook for the progress of human civilization.

1. Our fraternal meeting has taken place in Cuba, at the crossroads of North and South, East and West. It is from this island, the symbol of the hopes of the “New World” and the dramatic events of the history of the twentieth century, that we address our words to all the peoples of Latin America and of the other continents.

It is a source of joy that the Christian faith is growing here in a dynamic way. The powerful religious potential of Latin America, its centuries–old Christian tradition, grounded in the personal experience of millions of people, are the pledge of a great future for this region.

1. By meeting far from the longstanding disputes of the “Old World”, we experience with a particular sense of urgency the need for the shared labour of Catholics and Orthodox, who are called, with gentleness and respect, to give an explanation to the world of the hope in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15).
2. We thank God for the gifts received from the coming into the world of His only Son. We share the same spiritual Tradition of the first millennium of Christianity. The witnesses of this Tradition are the Most Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and the saints we venerate. Among them are innumerable martyrs who have given witness to their faithfulness to Christ and have become the “seed of Christians”.
3. Notwithstanding this shared Tradition of the first ten centuries, for nearly one thousand years Catholics and Orthodox have been deprived of communion in the Eucharist. We have been divided by wounds caused by old and recent conflicts, by differences inherited from our ancestors, in the understanding and expression of our faith in God, one in three Persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are pained by the loss of unity, the outcome of human weakness and of sin, which has occurred despite the priestly prayer of Christ the Saviour: “So that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you … so that they may be one, as we are one” (Jn 17:21).
4. Mindful of the permanence of many obstacles, it is our hope that our meeting may contribute to the re–establishment of this unity willed by God, for which Christ prayed. May our meeting inspire Christians throughout the world to pray to the Lord with renewed fervour for the full unity of all His disciples. In a world which yearns not only for our words but also for tangible gestures, may this meeting be a sign of hope for all people of goodwill!

/…/

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/02/12/joint_declaration_of_pope_francis_and_patriarch_kirill/1208117

May God bless you abundantly, Father, for this communication which is promising.

(A more conspiratorial-minded person would say why Communist Cuba as the place of meeting? Particularly those in the Fatima crowd.)

I will keep praying for Recommunion of the Eastern and Western Churches, the Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[sydneycatholic]

Have a read through the following link which was written by a contemporary Orthodox Saint, the wonderworker Bishop John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco.
I hope it makes clear the Orthodox position and why we reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

trueorthodoxy.info/apo_stjohnmaximovitch_orthodox_veneration_Mother_God.shtml

I read the entire article. It opened my eyes to history I wasn’t aware of.

Then Father Ruggero responded to me and I re-read his post. Regarding the meeting of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill and that our Recommunion may resemble a Church that was more like that of 431 AD.

God bless you.

 

[sydneycatholic]

Father, can you please tell me clearly how there can be a restoration of unity between E.O. and the Church without them accepting papal primacy and all other teachings of the Church? It is absolutely impossible. Only by believing the same Faith and accepting the legitimate spiritual authority Christ instituted can we be truly united. If the E.O. do this then they have converted - they have gone from rejecting Catholic teaching and authority to accepting it. I am sure the documents of Vatican II say that we must try to convert individuals AND restore unity between separated churches and communities.

Did you see any prophetic significance of the attendance - the first in over a 1,000 years - of an Ecumenical Patriarch/ Bishop of Constantinople (Bartholomew) at the Inauguration of a Bishop of Rome (Pope Francis) in 2013?

This may also assist in how we may see the future of the Church, perhaps?

Pope Francis has also been calling himself Bishop of Rome if you’ve noticed.

 

[recentrevert]

To deny the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is heresy.

To deny the primacy of Peter is heresy. We do not listen to the Orthodox’ arguments in order to discern truth but to what the Church tells us since the Church is the guardian of the deposit of Faith not individual bishops who break away from the Church as any bishop can, except the Pope.

The entire purpose of the ecumenical movement is the conversion of the separated churches and ecclesial communities as a whole. To lead them to both understand and accept the teaching of the Church which they currently either have not heard or reject.

 

[malphono]

But I have to say, if you keep on insisting the Orthodox need to be “converted”, it truly will end up only alienating and offending the Orthodox.

Trust me, it’s not only the Orthodox (EO/OO/ACoE) that are offended.

 

[Micosil]

Any bishop can defect and then continue to ordain more bishops and priests and teach them according to his own private convictions. That is what happened to the churches in the east.

That is a gross misunderstanding of how the ancient, non-Catholic Churches came to be. Do you honestly believe the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy came to be because of episcopi vagantes? If that is the case, I am sorry to say, it shows a very large gaping hole in your knowledge; there was a whole array of political, cultural, historical, ethnic, geographic, dogma/doctrine, etc. related reasons that these churches found themselves over time no longer in communion with each other. If you think these Churches all stem from wandering bishops that randomly ordained other priests and bishops, please explain to me why is it that these Churches do have valid sacraments, whereas it seems the Church of England has lost them?

I would humbly suggest you read up on this issue, and then maybe when you see how ignorant your remarks were, you’ll understand why you’re being met with negativity on this thread, from both Orthodox and Catholics.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

May God bless you abundantly, Father, for this communication which is promising.

(A more conspiratorial-minded person would say why Communist Cuba as the place of meeting? Particularly those in the Fatima crowd.)

I will keep praying for Recommunion of the Eastern and Western Churches, the Catholics and Orthodox.

Meeting in Cuba was meeting on neutral territory. There is a great deal to be dealt with. I am happy, after praying for this meeting for decades, that it happened in my lifetime.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, can you please tell me clearly how there can be a restoration of unity between E.O. and the Church…

You’re putting forward a mindset alien to the search for unity today.

I suggest you spend time reading and reflecting on Ut Unum Sint

1. In its historical survey the Council Decree Unitatis Redintegratio has in mind the unity which, in spite of everything, was experienced in the first millennium and in a certain sense now serves as a kind of model. “This most sacred Synod gladly reminds all … that in the East there flourish many particular or local Churches; among them the Patriarchal Churches hold first place; and of these, many glory in taking their origin from the Apostles themselves”. The Church’s journey began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and its original expansion in the oikoumene of that time was centred around Peter and the Eleven (cf. Acts 2:14). The structures of the Church in the East and in the West evolved in reference to that Apostolic heritage. Her unity during the first millennium was maintained within those same structures through the Bishops, Successors of the Apostles, in communion with the Bishop of Rome. If today at the end of the second millennium we are seeking to restore full communion, it is to that unity, thus structured, which we must look. …
2. Following the Second Vatican Council, and in the light of earlier tradition, it has again become usual to refer to the particular or local Churches gathered around their Bishop as “Sister Churches”. In addition, the lifting of the mutual excommunications, by eliminating a painful canonical and psychological obstacle, was a very significant step on the way towards full communion.

The structures of unity which existed before the separation are a heritage of experience that guides our common path towards the re-establishment of full communion. Obviously, during the second millennium the Lord has not ceased to bestow on his Church abundant fruits of grace and growth. Unfortunately, however, the gradual and mutual estrangement between the Churches of the West and the East deprived them of the benefits of mutual exchanges and cooperation. With the grace of God a great effort must be made to re-establish full communion among them … The traditional designation of “Sister Churches” should ever accompany us along this path.

57.In accordance with the hope expressed by Pope Paul VI, our declared purpose is to re-establish together full unity in legitimate diversity … In virtue of the apostolic succession, we are united more closely by the priesthood and the Eucharist. By participating in the gifts of God to his Church we are brought into communion with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit … For centuries we lived this life of ‘Sister Churches’, and together held Ecumenical Councils which guarded the deposit of faith against all corruption. And now, after a long period of division and mutual misunderstanding, the Lord is enabling us to discover ourselves as ‘Sister Churches’ once more, in spite of the obstacles which were once raised between us" If today, on the threshold of the third millennium, we are seeking the re-establishment of full communion, it is for the accomplishment of this reality that we must work and it is to this reality that we must refer. …

The Council does not limit itself to emphasizing the elements of similarity between the Churches in the East and in the West. In accord with historical truth, it does not hesitate to say: “It is hardly surprising if sometimes one tradition has come nearer than the other to an apt appreciation of certain aspects of the revealed mystery or has expressed them in a clearer manner. As a result, these various theological formulations are often to be considered as complementary rather than conflicting”. Communion is made fruitful by the exchange of gifts between the Churches insofar as they complement each other. …

59.Since its establishment in 1979, the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has worked steadily, directing its study to areas decided upon by mutual agreement, with the purpose of re-establishing full communion between the two Churches. … In a positive spirit, and on the basis of what we have in common, the Joint Commission has been able to make substantial progress and, as I was able to declare in union with my Venerable Brother, His Holiness Dimitrios I, the Ecumenical Patriarch, it has concluded “that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church can already profess together that common faith in the mystery of the Church and the bond between faith and sacraments”. The Commission was then able to acknowledge that “in our Churches apostolic succession is fundamental for the sanctification and the unity of the people of God”. …

1. …The Catholic Church desires nothing less than full communion between East and West. She finds inspiration for this in the experience of the first millennium. In that period, indeed, "the development of different experiences of ecclesial life did not prevent Christians, through mutual relations, from continuing to feel certain that they were at home in any Church, because praise of the one Father, through Christ in the Holy Spirit, rose from them all, in a marvelous variety of languages and melodies; all were gathered together to celebrate the Eucharist, the heart and model for the community regarding not only spirituality and the moral life, but also the Church’s very structure, in the variety of ministries and services under the leadership of the Bishop, successor of the Apostles. The first Councils are an eloquent witness to this enduring unity in diversity"…

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I’ve been having discussions with both the various Eastern-rite Church members, as well as the Eastern Orthodox.

Can I ask:

(1) Do these pray the Rosary?

(2) Do these believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

Forgive me for what has probably been asked a lot before, I couldn’t find the forum, and I’ve come across a lot of conflicting answers to these questions.

Many thanks.

I think, as I reflect on what you have posted, that I have better understanding of you and your aspiration now.

Since I used to teach Mariology, might I suggest that you look at some of the practices of the East to understand their conceptual framework and this will, in turn, help you to relate your Marian devotion, which is Western, to Marian devotion in the East?

For example, Pope Saint John Paul II gives an extended meditation on the Blessed Virgin as kecharitoméne in his encyclical Redemptoris Mater. This term, originally recorded in Greek by the Evangelist Luke as the greeting of the archangel Gabriel, provides us with an insight into the Blessed Virgin that is profound and can help you begin to bridge West and East. You can freely read the encyclical here: w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

The Akathist Hymn is a devotion that will also give you splendid insights into the East’s love and theology for the Most Holy Theotokos. You will find a starting place in its regard here…although reading it or about it does not do justice to its beauty ewtn.com/library/PRAYER/AKATHIS2.TXT

A book I always recommend is one I used with my students, “Mary and the Fathers of the Church” by Father Luigi Gambero. It is a really well done work that is quite readable and would give you an insight into the theology of Mary in the early Church, East and West. Saints Gregory Nazianzen, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Jerusalem, Clement of Alexandria, John Chrysostom, Severus of Antioch, Andrew of Crete, John Damascene among many others.

amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866 and click on “look inside” to see the table of contents.

 

[Ubenedictus]

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