Eastern-rite Pope?

[MorEphrem]

Thus it is incorrect to say St Peter was eastern rite as in reality at the time, there was no eastern vs western rite. Those hadn’t developed yet. All practiced a liturgy as described in the Didache and Acts. Only over a few centuries did eastern vs western, or rather, cultural rites develop from the first century liturgy of the apostolic period.

Yes, it is an anachronism to say St. Peter was “eastern rite” (not that a person can be a ritual, but everyone gets the idea); frankly, I find it an anachronism to even speak of the Western, Eastern and Oriental Communions until much later than most people would make the distinction. However, worship probably varied from the very beginning of the Church and supervened on previous custom. Syriac liturgy is derived from the Jewish worship in Syria - the Syrian Jews were illegally offering (incense) “sacrifice” outside Jerusalem by doing incense offerings in the first century, as well as doing a reading from the major sections of the Torah. When Syrian Jews started becoming Christian they adopted very similar ritual, as well as tacked on readings from acts, epistles and the Gospels, hence the development of the West Syriac hoosoyo and readings scheme. The catacomb worship was probably very different.

It seems a bit of a silly and unprovable argument to say that proto-christian worship was uniform from Rome to Kerala. It’s entertaining when people try to use the Apostolic Constitutions as an example of this, despite their relatively late date and very particular context.

The idea that “he taught the Romans the liturgy and the faith” is extremely problematic. While I’m sure St. Peter did proselytize I don’t think he was doing much liturgical formation.

In any case, I don’t think an Eastern pope will be elected anytime soon nor do I think people should ask the question. The papacy in the last two conclaves has become a pageantry of sorts where the office is conflated with personalities, which is never a good thing. All we need to do is ask God to send us orthodox and caring shepherds, where they’re from Wyoming or Beijing.

 

[malphono]

In any case, I don’t think an Eastern pope will be elected anytime soon nor do I think people should ask the question.

I agree that it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon (nor do I want it to, frankly) but simply asking the question is fine by me.

The papacy in the last two conclaves has become a pageantry of sorts where the office is conflated with personalities, which is never a good thing. All we need to do is ask God to send us orthodox and caring shepherds, where they’re from Wyoming or Beijing.

The last two conclaves? The last one maybe. The one before it, not so much. But one really has to go back to 1914 (Benedict XV) and 1922 (Pius XI) both of whom were dark-horses, and both of whom are among the “forgotten Popes” (and I expect Benedict XVI to join that group, if he’s not already there). There were probably a few other dark-horses in the more distant past, but specific names (other than Celestine V) don’t come to mind right now.

 

[Micosil]

I agree that it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon (nor do I want it to, frankly) but simply asking the question is fine by me.

Out of curiosity, why not? I noticed you were Syro-Maronite yourself, so I was wondering why you wouldn’t want an Eastern rite Cardinal as the next Holy Father. For one thing, I think it may raise awareness of the existence of Eastern Catholicism in the West, something I’ve noted that is sorely lacking; needless to say, of course, it’s more important that the Holy Father be devout, orthodox and a worthy leader of the Universal Church.

 

[rfournier103]

Pope Paul VI and Pope Pius XI both practiced the Ambrosian Rite because of their former status as Bishop of Milan. After being elected pope, they switched to the far more widely practiced Roman Rite.

The Ambrosian Rite is a rite of the Latin or Western Church, as is the Roman Rite. As far as Eastern rites go, I can’t think of any recent popes that come from those rites.

 

[Brendan]

Please enlighten me if this has ever happened; as far as I know, it hasn’t.

Thank you.

Yea, St. Peter, he was Primate of the Church of Antioch first…

 

[Wandile]

Yea, St. Peter, he was Primate of the Church of Antioch first…

Actually Peter was at Rome then Antioch then went back to Rome.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

The Pope can be from any Rite. I would have no problem with a Pope from an Eastern Rite. I agree with Micosil in that it could raise awareness about Catholicism in the East. I would like to see someone like Louis Raphael I Sako promoted to Cardinal eventually.

 

[wynd]

The Pope can be from any Rite. I would have no problem with a Pope from an Eastern Rite. I agree with Micosil in that it could raise awareness about Catholicism in the East. I would like to see someone like Louis Raphael I Sako promoted to Cardinal eventually.

Among his other duties, the pope is the bishop of Rome and head of the Latin church. It wouldn’t make sense to have a non-Latin bishop as pope.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

Among his other duties, the pope is the bishop of Rome and head of the Latin church. It wouldn’t make sense to have a non-Latin bishop as pope.

Because, obviously, Yeshua favors one liturgical tradition more than another. Smh. We can agree to disagree. These type of assertions work against ecumenism.

 

[wynd]

Because, obviously, Yeshua favors one liturgical tradition more than another. Smh. We can agree to disagree. These type of assertions work against ecumenism.

OK, explain to me then how it would work.

 

[Vico]

Alexandrian tradition -
Coptic Catholics: (non-voting) Patriarch Emeritus Antonios Cardinal Naguib.

Byzantine tradition -
Italo-Albanese Catholics: Apostolic Administrator Paolo Cardinal Romeo
Romanian Catholics: (non-voting) Lucian Mureşan, Cardinal, Major Archbishop

Chaldean tradition:
Syro-Malabar Catholics: George Alencherry, Cardinal, Major Archbishop

Antiochian tradition:
Maronite Catholics: Béchara Boutros Raï, O.M.M., Cardinal, Patriarch
(non-voting) Nasrallah Pierre Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch Emeritus
Syro-Malankara Catholics: Baselios Cleemis (Isaac) Thottunkal, Cardinal, Major Archbishop

Armenian tradition:
Armenian Catholics: No current cardinals.

Non-voting cardinals are any cardinals over the age limit of 80.

A lot of Eastern groups are apparently up for new cardinals soon, or are between bishops or patriarchs for various reasons. I haven’t listed which churches have had cardinals in the past and don’t have them now, or which churches have never yet had cardinals. So there are many rites not listed above.

Also:

Alexandrian tradition -
Cardinal Berhaneyesus Demerew Souraphiel, Metropolitan of the Ethiopian Catholic Church.

 

[Latinitas]

Because, obviously, Yeshua favors one liturgical tradition more than another. Smh. We can agree to disagree. These type of assertions work against ecumenism.

Well, what I think FlaviusAetius is saying is that the Pope is not ecclesial head of the Latin Church, in addition to the entire Catholic Church. A person is the Pope by the very fact that he is the Bishop of Rome, which is a diocese of the Latin Church.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Vico]

Well, what I think FlaviusAetius is saying is that the Pope is not ecclesial head of the Latin Church, in addition to the entire Catholic Church. A person is the Pope by the very fact that he is the Bishop of Rome, which is a diocese of the Latin Church.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Jurisdiction and church of enrollment are different concepts. For practical example for handling using one’s own rites, there is the indult of Adaptation of Rite and also the indult of Bi-ritual faculties.

 

[wynd]

Jurisdiction and church of enrollment are different concepts. For practical example for handling using one’s own rites, there is the indult of Adaptation of Rite and also the indult of Bi-ritual faculties.

Can you explain more about these?

 

[Vico]

Can you explain more about these?

Biritualism is a grant for a period of time to celebrate in the Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass and the Holy Sacraments according to the liturgical rite of another Church sui iuris as well as one’s own Church sui iuris, yet always ascribed to your own Church sui iuris.

The adaptation of rite is a papal indult allowing the foregoing and to be part of the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony of another Church sui iuris, yet always ascribed to one’s own Church sui iuris.

This adaptation of rite is more common for those in religious institutes (such as a Latin Catholic in a Byzantine monastary or even for incardination of an eastern priest in a Latin diocese.) If the reason for the grant ceases, so does the indult.

Source:

Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics: A Canonical-Pastoral Handbook by Dimitri Salachas & Krzysztof Nitkiewicz, English Edition by George Dmitry Gallaro, 2009, 157 pp., ISBN 1-932208-23-2

 

[wynd]

Biritualism is a grant for a period of time to celebrate in the Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass and the Holy Sacraments according to the liturgical rite of another Church sui iuris as well as one’s own Church sui iuris, yet always ascribed to your own Church sui iuris.

The adaptation of rite is a papal indult allowing the foregoing and to be part of the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony of another Church sui iuris, yet always ascribed to one’s own Church sui iuris.

This adaptation of rite is more common for those in religious institutes (such as a Latin Catholic in a Byzantine monastary or even for incardination of an eastern priest in a Latin diocese.) If the reason for the grant ceases, so does the indult.

Source:

Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics: A Canonical-Pastoral Handbook by Dimitri Salachas & Krzysztof Nitkiewicz, English Edition by George Dmitry Gallaro, 2009, 157 pp., ISBN 1-932208-23-2

Thanks!

I mean, the pope can do whatever he wants. But on a practical, day-to-day level, how would it all work? If an Eastern bishop were elected pope, would he celebrate papal Masses or papal Divine Liturgies? What about all the other priests and deacons and servers who normally assist him? This is what I mean when I say it doesn’t make sense to have an Eastern bishop become the bishop of Rome.

 

[Vico]

Thanks!

I mean, the pope can do whatever he wants. But on a practical, day-to-day level, how would it all work? If an Eastern bishop were elected pope, would he celebrate papal Masses or papal Divine Liturgies? What about all the other priests and deacons and servers who normally assist him? This is what I mean when I say it doesn’t make sense to have an Eastern bishop become the bishop of Rome.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=343924&language=en

 

[Elizium23]

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=343924&language=en

Okay, so we have a hypothetical Byzantine Pope and he’s presiding at a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy. Does he vest as a Byzantine patriarch and offend the Orthodox? How else would he vest/act?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Why would vesting as a Byzantine Patriarch offend the Orthodox? Especially if the person is a Byzantine himself? Besides, Byzantine is not the only option - the Pope could hypothetically be Syriac, Chaldean, Malabar, Malankara, Armenian, Copt, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Maronite, etc.

 

[Vico]

Okay, so we have a hypothetical Byzantine Pope and he’s presiding at a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy. Does he vest as a Byzantine patriarch and offend the Orthodox? How else would he vest/act?

With an indult, vesting could be of the ascribed or of the Latin.