Eastern Rite Theology vs Dogma

[yeshua]

But again, the insistence of some that their full on embrace of certain of modern EO schools as being the voice or view of the east comes off as contentious or contradistinctive as the “Latinized” folks being decried.

It is laughable that you think the poor little sitto in the mountains of Lebanon is seeking Eastern Orthodox schools of thought. Are you really that cold in thinking that what I represent is isolated? Have you based your entire experience of the Maronites on the Western diasporic phenomena that we call the Maronite Church in the United States? Are you even aware of how the church home in Lebanon sees its diasporic children? Have you visited these remote villages, the urban Maronites of Beirut, and seen what they believe? Have you compared the modernization of Harrissa to the ancient caves blanketing Qadisha?

To some of these people it is not theological discourse, it’s tradition as far back as they know it.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[yeshua]

I concur. I’ve spoken to a Melkite priest that does not share Yeshua’s opinion.

And I can give you as many bishops and priests who agree with me. The point is, that is not where we are going to find answers to this issue.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[jimmy]

You have yet to answer the question.

Who says we need a distinction to know whether we are worthy? The saints never did. Some sins barred people from communion, but those were also excommunicable(adultery, idolatry, and murder). If you did not committ an excommunicable offense you could present yourself for communion.

 

[yeshua]

It might come as a surprise to some of you that I don’t think I have the final answer as to what an Eastern or Oriental Catholic is to believe. Seeking that answer is why I came to this forum. Do I find more stock in where I come from, yes, but I have not been convinced, not nearly. All I am fighting for is that recognition that this is something that many, many people believe beyond your polemics and fantasies of the romantic ideal of Eastern and Oriental Catholics. Such blanket conceptions are not healthy for diaolgue and will get us nowhere. Let’s be honest that yes, there are many Latinized ECs, there are many staunchly orthodox (lowercase, don’t come back to bite me with it) ECs, and there are many in between. Acknowledge that there exists this dichotomy and various degrees of belief so we can present what’s needed at the table and hash these things out!

Peace and God Bless.

 

[jimmy]

Who says we need a distinction to know whether we are worthy? The saints never did. Some sins barred people from communion, but those were also excommunicable(adultery, idolatry, and murder). If you did not committ an excommunicable offense you could present yourself for communion.

Or, as many eastern churches do it. You can’t present yourself to communion if you haven’t been to confession within a few weeks. The east does say some sins are serious, but they do not say they are mortal whereas others are venial. So they might say that if you commit a serious sin you should not present yourself for communion until you confess. This is mainly in the Byzantine tradition.

I don’t know what the tradition of the Maronites was before. yeshua, can you explain what the tradition is for confession and communion for the Maronites?

 

[HailMary]

Who says we need a distinction to know whether we are worthy?

The Church does.
Not to mention, St. Paul, in particular.

did you already forget the passage?

 

[jimmy]

It might come as a surprise to some of you that I don’t think I have the final answer as to what an Eastern or Oriental Catholic is to believe. Seeking that answer is why I came to this forum. Do I find more stock in where I come from, yes, but I have not been convinced, not nearly. All I am fighting for is that recognition that this is something that many, many people believe beyond your polemics and fantasies of the romantic ideal of Eastern and Oriental Catholics. Such blanket conceptions are not healthy for diaolgue and will get us nowhere. Let’s be honest that yes, there are many Latinized ECs, there are many staunchly orthodox (lowercase, don’t come back to bite me with it) ECs, and there are many in between. Acknowledge that there exists this dichotomy and various degrees of belief so we can present what’s needed at the table and hash these things out!

Peace and God Bless.

yeshua, I have to agree. I don’t know exactly what to believe as an eastern Christian. I can’t really sharply distinguish between our tradition and that of the Byzantines. I tend to lean toward the view that we should be Maronite and follow all our traditions so I might get angry when someone tells me I must accept such and such a view.

 

[jimmy]

The Church does.
Not to mention, St. Paul, in particular.

did you already forget the passage?

I know the passage, 1Cor11, but Paul doesn’t make a distinction between mortal and venial sin. He simply says that those who drink unworthily drunk unto their judgement.

 

[jimmy]

It is good that this thread has settled down a little. It had developed almost into a yelling match there for a few posts.

 

[jimmy]

Can we just end this discussion on mortal sin? We are never going to agree and it is an inconsequential subject. There are more important issues.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It is laughable that you think the poor little sitto in the mountains of Lebanon is seeking Eastern Orthodox schools of thought. Are you really that cold in thinking that what I represent is isolated? Have you based your entire experience of the Maronites on the Western diasporic phenomena that we call the Maronite Church in the United States? Are you even aware of how the church home in Lebanon sees its diasporic children? Have you visited these remote villages, the urban Maronites of Beirut, and seen what they believe? Have you compared the modernization of Harrissa to the ancient caves blanketing Qadisha?

To some of these people it is not theological discourse, it’s tradition as far back as they know it.

Peace and God Bless.

“Laughable?” Let’s not get insulting or dismissive by discounting a straw man so quickly.

And who is being cold? Don’t couch this in language of personal affronts or personality differences. It’s not. None have been offered, nothing should be constructed as being of an insult.

Is it in turn fair to ask how are you so cold as to be dismissive of my forebearers in re-affirming the union?

And the relevence of the ancestoral simplicity or spirituality is a bit misdirected. Have you in turn been to the Slavic Christian east? Let’s not turn this into a contest of who is closer to the people.

I am not asserting that the simple pious Christians of the Catholic east are seeking out EO schools of thought. I am asserting that you are doing that, and presenting them as, lock, stock and barrel, THE valid tradition and THE singular vision of what it is to be an Eastern Christian or Eastern Catholic.

There is a legitimate school of thought quite apart from the anti-papal schools of Eastern Orthodoxy that constitute a legitimate Catholic expression in the East.

 

[HailMary]

Can we just end this discussion on mortal sin? We are never going to agree and it is an inconsequential subject. There are more important issues.

Inconsequential!

Dying in a state of moral sin merits you to hell.

 

[jimmy]

Inconsequential!

Dying in a state of moral sin merits you to hell.

I don’t accept the distinction and neither do many of my eastern brothers and sisters. I am done discussing it because we will not agree.

 

[jimmy]

“Laughable?” Let’s not get insulting or dismissive by discounting a straw man so quickly.

And who is being cold? Don’t couch this in language of personal affronts or personality differences. It’s not. None have been offered, nothing should be constructed as being of an insult.

Is it in turn fair to ask how are you so cold as to be dismissive of my forebearers in re-affirming the union?

And the relevence of the ancestoral simplicity or spirituality is a bit misdirected. Have you in turn been to the Slavic Christian east? Let’s not turn this into a contest of who is closer to the people.

I am not asserting that the simple pious Christians of the Catholic east are seeking out EO schools of thought. I am asserting that you are doing that, and presenting them as, lock, stock and barrel, THE valid tradition and THE singular vision of what it is to be an Eastern Christian or Eastern Catholic.

There is a legitimate school of thought quite apart from the anti-papal schools of Eastern Orthodoxy that constitute a legitimate Catholic expression in the East.

yeshua reads books like Sebastian Brock’s or Seely Begianni(who is a Maronite priest) and other Syriac theologians. I have discussed this stuff with him.

 

[yeshua]

And who is being cold? Don’t couch this in language of personal affronts or personality differences. It’s not. None have been offered, nothing should be constructed as being of an insult.

Your presumptions led me there, forgive me if I overstepped my bounds.

Is it in turn fair to ask how are you so cold as to be dismissive of my forebearers in re-affirming the union?

The only thing I am cold about is when Eastern and Oriental Catholcism is given a blanket defition, when reality is quite diverse and otherwise. I am not cold to your positions, they are a part of that reality, I am cold when you dismiss my experience so quickly as not valid and apart of some pseudo-EO polemic conspiracy. See below.

And the relevence of the ancestoral simplicity or spirituality is a bit misdirected. Have you in turn been to the Slavic Christian east? Let’s not turn this into a contest of who is closer to the people.

My background is apart of having to validate my experience as a Catholic to another, I am not doing the same to you, there is no need to bring up your ancestry. The relevance is found in that the place of origin for these churches teaching Latinization originally do not have such contructs, and I am only speaking of the Maronites as an example of how that assists in showing their experience as Oriental Catholics as valid.

I am not asserting that the simple pious Christians of the Catholic east are seeking out EO schools of thought. I am asserting that you are doing that, and presenting them as, lock, stock and barrel, THE valid tradition and THE singular vision of what it is to be an Eastern Christian or Eastern Catholic.

No, not whatsoever. Refer to me most recent post! I am only arguing that people stop devaluing these experiences of mine, Jimmy’s, and all of those people who don’t have the luxury of speaking this language, more often than not that come from the homeland of these churches.

There is a legitimate school of thought quite apart from the anti-papal schools of Eastern Orthodoxy that constitute a legitimate Catholic expression in the East.

I do no know where you draw your conclusions, especially about the Maronites and anti-papal schools, but so be it. They seem to be more conclusions drawn for these microcasm conversations than real experience with these people. Are their Orthodox polemics that assist in the polarization of EC’s, yes, that was one of the problems of the last forum, but these issues existed long before them.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[yeshua]

yeshua reads books like Sebastian Brock’s or Seely Begianni(who is a Maronite priest) and other Syriac theologians. I have discussed this stuff with him.

This inquiry only came once I was faced with the dilemma of having my Catholicity doubted by a Latin parish. You can imagine how it was when I discovered my first Latinized Maronite parish. Again, this is what drew me to these boards, and why I began researching what I do.

Reading books doesn’t give me authority, neither does my soul experience as an Oriental Catholic, but it does present some with an interesting persepctive that diasporic Eastern Christians must accomodate in order for diaolgue to work.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[thedejongs]

Forgive me, I thought the recent purged removed those few Orthodox who had the gall to come and pontificate to us, rather than those people who exemplified the charity of Holy Orthodoxy, more often than not a charity not found amongst my fellow Catholics. This would explain my mishap in labeling. It’s too bad that this forum abstraction has seemed to leave the most tragic from every camp, myself included.

If you are a convert, it makes you no more credible to dictate the heritages of these people in question. Don’t walk in here and presume you have such an authority.

Don’t condescend to me, sir, nor my theology. Forgive me for derailing this thread, or what’s left of it, my condolences to my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics.

Peae and God Bless.

From the guidelines for the new Eastern Christianity forum sponsored by CAF:
“The new focus of this forum is to . . . help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church’s Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum . . . . calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated.”

As someone who is constantly attempting to ensure that I have found the Truth and a person who is married to a Latin Catholic who is also struggling with the same, I believe that, EO though I am, I am in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum by urging clarity regarding what theological positions an EC must accept to be considered Catholic. If I have at all questioned the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another, I request the questioned party to judge me for that and have me banned from this forum.

Gotta’ agree with fulloffaith, though, that no one is really coming clean as to the main issue: Must EC’s adhere to dogma that has been infallibly (whether papally, conciliarly, or general teaching that rises to infallibility) defined by the Roman Catholic Church? If not, please display the analysis that legitimates this and further explain how communion is maintained in light of the disagreement on such essential matters that the RCC found it necessary to define them and to anathematize all those holding inconsistent positions.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I do no know where you draw your conclusions, especially about the Maronites and anti-papal schools, but so be it. They seem to be more conclusions drawn for these microcasm conversations than real experience with these people. Are their Orthodox polemics that assist in the polarization of EC’s, yes, that was one of the problems of the last forum, but these issues existed long before them.

This thread has woven between Maronites specificly and Eastern Christians in general. I made no reference to a particular or distinctive Maronite anti-papal school.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Can we just end this discussion on mortal sin? We are never going to agree and it is an inconsequential subject. There are more important issues.

Gravity of sin is not inconsequential.

 

[jimmy]

Gravity of sin is not inconsequential.

Did the fathers of the Church define mortal vs venial? no. That is all that we need to know as to whether it is a necessary definition. Apparently they didn’t need it. I am done with the conversation.