Eastern Rite Theology vs Dogma

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

See we didn’t have to have EO’s here because we have enough issues within our own Fellowship to go around!

But please don’t encourage those who might be in a position of dissent to ‘go to an Orthodox Church’. That is simply not charitable.

 

[East_and_West]

And they opposed the canons.

Then, by the grace of God, they were outnumbered. That’s how ecumenical councils work. Those who are wrong don’t win out in the end.

 

[East_and_West]

Grace and Peace,

See we didn’t have to have EO’s here because we have enough issues without out own Fellowship to go around!

But please don’t encourage those who might be in a position of decent to ‘go to an Orthodox Church’. That is simply not charitable.

I am sorry if anyone misunderstood me. I am not suggesting he leave. I am suggesting that those who hold to such opinions face the glaring inconsistancies.

 

[jimmy]

Assuming you are correct about the Fathers’ understanding of OS (although i would have to check it out), could not the Fathers and Trent be talking about two different Aspects of OS? And what about the other 1/3? Are they just wrong?

Augustine was the originator of the view that Trent dogmatized. If there are 1/3 of the fathers who disagree you should atleast remain silent. You shouldn’t define the minority view as dogma.

 

[East_and_West]

That is a dead EC. It is basically latins playing dressup. It is vanity. You like insence and priests with beards and you like an old liturgy but that is all vanity if it doesn’t come with eastern theology.

Wow. That’s rather offensive. My pastor is one of the saintliest men I have ever met in my entire life. I expect him to be on icon some day. Yet you claim he is practicing dead EC and what he is teaching us is vanity. WOW.

 

[jimmy]

Then, by the grace of God, they were outnumbered. That’s how ecumenical councils work. Those who are wrong don’t win out in the end.

Yes, by the latins. As I said, it was the Latins legislating their own theology and the east being forced to submit. The Latins absolutely insist on tyranically forcing their views down our throughts.

 

[East_and_West]

Augustine was the originator of the view that Trent dogmatized. If there are 1/3 of the fathers who disagree you should atleast remain silent. You shouldn’t define the minority view as dogma.

Why not? Is truth determined by the majority vote of the Fathers? There was a time when almost every bishop went Arain? Should we then accept Ariansim? No, Ecumenical councils sift between truth and error.

 

[chrisb]

Augustine was the originator of the view that Trent dogmatized. If there are 1/3 of the fathers who disagree you should atleast remain silent. You shouldn’t define the minority view as dogma.

With all due respect jimmy neither St. Athanasius nor St. Maximus would agree with this. If you don’t agree with Original Sin. I can appreciate that but such a doctrine existed prior to St. Augustine. Their are many debates in the old forum which simply shut the modern Orthodox objection down.

 

[jimmy]

Why not? Is truth determined by the majority vote of the Fathers? There was a time when almost every bishop went Arain? Should we then accept Ariansim? No, Ecumenical councils sift between truth and error.

The council of Trent said that we take the universal view of the fathers.

They have simply called all the fathers of the Greeks and Syriacs heretics in favor of Augustine. It is a rejection of tradition itself in favor of Augustines opinion. As if Augustine can change the faith and as if he is a greater father than the others.

 

[jimmy]

With all due respect jimmy neither St. Athanasius nor St. Maximus would agree with this. If you don’t agree with Original Sin. I can appreciate that but such a doctrine existed prior to St. Augustine. Their are many debates in the old forum which simply shut the modern Orthodox objection down.

The term existed but certainly not in the sense that the council of Trent defined it.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Yes, by the latins. As I said, it was the Latins legislating their own theology and the east being forced to submit. The Latins absolutely insist on tyranically forcing their views down our throughts.

Rome legislates because its the epicenter of Catholicism of which the EC is very much a part.

To call her tyranical or forcing anything down anyones throat is very short sighted and frankly arrogant as your own Church is a part of that process.

Do you have any trust that the Holy Spirit guides the WHOLE Church?

Peace.

 

[jimmy]

Rome legislates because its the epicenter of Catholicism.

To call her tyranical or forcing anything down anyones throat is very short sighted and frankly arrogant.

Do you have any trust that the Holy Spirit guides the WHOLE Church?

Peace.

Yes, I trust the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the pope and the Latins only. He guides the whole Church and as far as I see He has continued to guide the east to remain eastern. The way your ecclesiology has it is that the Holy Spirit protects the pope from error while the rest of the Church simply hangs on the pope. The Holy Spirit is the principle of unity, not the pope.

 

[chrisb]

The term existed but certainly not in the sense that the council of Trent defined it.

I believe a very reasonable case can be made between St. Cyprian and St. Ambrose alone to conclude what St. Augustine concluded concerning ‘original sin’ but I separate this with his views on Predestination.

I would also offer St. Athanasius On The Incarnation which points to a lack of grace as the primary loss during the fall.

But of course we can discuss these issues without drawing lines in the sand.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Yes, I trust the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the pope and the Latins only. He guides the whole Church and as far as I see He has continued to guide the east to remain eastern. The way your ecclesiology has it is that the Holy Spirit protects the pope from error while the rest of the Church simply hangs on the pope. The Holy Spirit is the principle of unity, not the pope.

Thats right he doesn’t guide Rome only. HE guides the whole Church unilaterally and where He guides US to places you disapprove of you say Rome is tyranical. Thats just not right.

I may agree He guides the east to preserve her culture and custom but He is also guiding it along the same path with the rest of the Church. Why must it be made into a Culture war? That is hardly the Christian way.

You are confusing LAW and Custom and Culture. We are not saved by the Law. There is nothing contrary in theology for the east to preserve its customs and cultures.

As far as ex-cathedra its a rarely invoked instance and it comes directly from the example of the apostles. Though the apostles may have had disagreements they didn’t sacrifice unity over them and Peter spoke with authority. There is an easy solution to your feelings of animosity; humbly stop finding fault with your brother where there is none.

Its not just an US and YOU ecclesioligy. ITs an OUR ecclesiology. He is YOUR Pope too. Or is he?

 

[jimmy]

Thats right he doesn’t guide Rome only. HE guides the whole Church unilaterally and where He guides US to places you disapprove of you say Rome is tyranical. Thats just not right.

I may agree He guides the east to preserve her culture and custom but He is also guiding it along the same path with the rest of the Church. Why must it be made into a Culture war? That is hardly the Christian way.

You are confusing LAW and Custom and Culture. We are not saved by the Law. There is nothing contrary in theology for the east to preserve its customs and cultures.

As far as ex-cathedra its a rarely invoked instance and it comes directly from the example of the apostles. Though the apostles may have had disagreements they didn’t sacrifice unity over them and Peter spoke with authority. There is an easy solution to your feelings of animosity; humbly stop finding fault with your brother where there is none.

Its not just and US and YOU ecclesioligy. ITs an OUR ecclesiology. He is YOUR Pope too. Or is he?

And this is exactly the view I have been rejecting. If the east preserves its customs and culture but accepts latin theology, spirituality and tradition it is dead. It is called to accept its own theology which is that of the church fathers which has been handed down to them by their fathers. Yes, he is our pope too, but he doesn’t hold the same place in the east that he does in the west. We accept him as first among equals but we do not believe in papal supremacy or papal infallibility.

My problem could be solved in the reverse way as well, if you would stop finding fault in us. The pope is not the definition of unity. The church in pittsburgh is fully Catholic and that is not dependant on his communion with the pope. His Catholicity is dependant on his upholding the faith of the Church. We have upheld the faith of the Church and we have not changed it so you can not consider us any less Catholic. We maintain what we have been given by our fathers because it is true, and we do not add to it.

 

[jimmy]

Thats right he doesn’t guide Rome only. HE guides the whole Church unilaterally and where He guides US to places you disapprove of you say Rome is tyranical. Thats just not right.

I may agree He guides the east to preserve her culture and custom but He is also guiding it along the same path with the rest of the Church. Why must it be made into a Culture war? That is hardly the Christian way.

You are confusing LAW and Custom and Culture. We are not saved by the Law. There is nothing contrary in theology for the east to preserve its customs and cultures.

As far as ex-cathedra its a rarely invoked instance and it comes directly from the example of the apostles. Though the apostles may have had disagreements they didn’t sacrifice unity over them and Peter spoke with authority. There is an easy solution to your feelings of animosity; humbly stop finding fault with your brother where there is none.

Its not just an US and YOU ecclesioligy. ITs an OUR ecclesiology. He is YOUR Pope too. Or is he?

The guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church is the same guidance of the Holy Spirit in your personal life. It is not some special action that is designated for the bishops. It is not the rigid understanding that the west has of it.

 

[Joab_Anias]

And this is exactly the view I have been rejecting. If the east preserves its customs and culture but accepts latin theology, spirituality and tradition it is dead.

Thats calling your Romans brothers spiritually and traditionally dead.

Theology doesn’t kill tradition. For petes sake look to what Christ said to the Parhasees, He fulfills the Law. If we subscribed to this hold fast mentality we would all still be Orthodox Jews. You have to follow where the Spirit Leads. This isn’t of men but of God. Never does theology attack anyones culture or custom or tradition.

It is called to accept its own theology which is that of the church fathers which has been handed down to them by their fathers. Yes, he is our pope too, but he doesn’t hold the same place in the east that he does in the west. We accept him as first among equals but we do not believe in papal supremacy or papal infallibility.

He sure does hold the same place and he is a living Church father. There is no such thing as papal supremacy. And the Pope has the Keys. He can be guided to be infallible in certain instances. One example I know of is proclaiming the birth control pill was abortive back in the 60’s before there was any science to prove conception happened when it does.

My problem could be solved in the reverse way as well, if you would stop finding fault in us. The pope is not the definition of unity. The church in pittsburgh is fully Catholic and that is not dependant on his communion with the pope. His Catholicity is dependant on his upholding the faith of the Church. We have upheld the faith of the Church and we have not changed it so you can not consider us any less Catholic. We maintain what we have been given by our fathers because it is true, and we do not add to it.

I don’t know what you mean. I find no fault in EC’s. The Pope does not define Unity. We must accept that on our own. He is a symbol of it though just as are all Catholic apostles. I have never said you were less Catholic but you sir have said plenty.

You have to get over this idea that were out to make changes and innovations for no reason! The progression of the Holy Spirit will not be impeeded because of someones inability to ascend to follow.

When you say you will not add to or accept changes that come from God then you become a pillar of salt just like Lots wife.

I say get on board and come to the center of the Ship, she is steaming full speed ahead.

 

[Joab_Anias]

The guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church is the same guidance of the Holy Spirit in your personal life. It is not some special action that is designated for the bishops. It is not the rigid understanding that the west has of it.

Thats true but only the Church guidance is infallible.

We can think were being guided and be mistaken. The Church cannot.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict and he comes to us infallibly through the Church. Jesus said so not the Church herself. This is why Jesus personally taught the apostles before sending them out into the world and why we have apostolic succession in the first place. Its entirely necessary to know Gods will for all of man kind. This does not mean were aren’t personally called to descern for ourselves.

The problem comes in with the accuser and his tricks to kill us. He wants to lead us astray any way he can because he hates us. This is also why the Church is infallible in its protection and why we must make it our point of reference because our interpretations cannot contradict with the Church any more than with the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[jimmy]

Thats calling your Romans brothers spiritually and traditionally dead.

Theology doesn’t kill tradition. For petes sake look to what Christ said to the Parhasees, He fulfills the Law. If we subscribed to this hold fast mentality we would all still be Orthodox Jews. You have to follow where the Spirit Leads. This isn’t of men but of God. Never does theology attack anyones culture or custom or tradition.

He sure does hold the same place and he is a living Church father. There is no such thing as papal supremacy. And the Pope has the Keys. He can be guided to be infallible in certain instances. One example I know of is proclaiming the birth control pill was abortive back in the 60’s before there was any science to prove conception happened when it does.

I don’t know what you mean. I find no fault in EC’s. The Pope does not define Unity. We must accept that on our own. He is a symbol of it though just as are all Catholic apostles. I have never said you were less Catholic but you sir have said plenty.

You have to get over this idea that were out to make changes and innovations for not reason! The progression of the Holy Spirit will not be impeeded because of somes inability to ascend to follow.

When you say you will not add to or accept changes that come from God then you become a pillar of salt just like Lots wife.

I say get on board and come to the center of the Ship, she is steaming full speed ahead.

The progress of the Holy Spirit will be prevented by those who think they can define the faith, who think they can contain God in their mind.

Who said they come from God? So now the Latins have the right to say they have recieved revelations from God and can define Syriac or Greek theology?

No, she isn’t. Rome has realized that there can be no ecumenical dialogue with the east if they continue to define dogmas. They will not define any new dogmas any time soon for this reason.

All the apostles were given the keys in Matt.18, so the bishops have the keys as well.

You misunderstand what tradition is. It is not simply fasting on certain days or performing certain acts. It is the faith handed down. Our tradition is given to us by our fathers, it is not given from Rome. So this has nothing to do with the pharisees. Look what Paul said to the Corinthians, he praised them for holding to the traditions handed on to them. Just like we have no right to change our tradition, Rome has no right to change our tradition.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Look what Paul said to the Corinthians, he praised them for holding to the traditions handed on to them. Just like we have no right to change our tradition, Rome has no right to change our tradition.

Fear not, Rome is not out to change your traditions but you musn’t be afraid for them to change either or then to point to the unification with Rome as the cause.

Peace, I have to go.