Eastern Rite vs Protestant

[ntisawesome]

Is there a difference?

Why are Eastern Rites still considered Catholics but say… Lutherans aren’t?

 

[guess246]

Eastern Catholics are in communion with the Pope, hence why they are Catholics and not Orthodox. Same goes for Protestants but vice versa, they’re not Catholics because they’ve separated themselves from the Church.

 

[Petergee]

The Eastern “Rites” (more properly called the Eastern Catholic Churches) believe all of the same doctrines exactly the same as Latin-rite Catholics believe. They are just as Catholic as anyone is.
Protestants reject many of the essential beliefs of the Catholic Church and believe some other things which the Catholic Church rejects.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Actually, the Eastern Catholic Churches do not believe “just the same as any Latin Catholic.” While we do believe in the same essential dogmas, there is a huge difference between how we express the faith, both liturgically and theologically, and how Roman Catholics express the faith. Just look at the debates that we’ve had on purgatory. There’s also the issue of papal infallibility and unversal supreme jurisdiction. I’ve heard Patriarch Gregorios III (head of the Melkite Greek Catholics) quoted as having said, “With all due respect to the pope, he’s no greater than any other patriarch.” For these words he’s never been censured.

This thread demonstrates the sad reality of most Catholics’ ignorance of Eastern Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox). We are very different from Protestants because we have apostolic succession, we have valid and licit Orders (yes, even among the Orthodox), we have preserved the Apostolic Faith intact (yes, even among the Orthodox), etc. It is the sad truth that most Catholics are ignorant of the Orthodox (just as it is the sad truth that most Orthodox are ignorant of authentic Catholic teaching). It is also a sad truth that Roman/Latin Catholics have a tendency to treat Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens. The dominant mentallity is, “Well if you want to be a ‘real’ Catholic, then you should be Roman.” You could just look at how the Polish treated the Ukrainian Greek Catholics throughout nearly the entire 19 - 20th Centuries. Ukrainian Greek Catholics were murdered by the Poles for “not being Catholic enough.” Ukrainian Catholic bishops were treated as inferior to the Latin bishops (many Latin bishops refused to allow Greek Catholic bishops to have any authority over the Greek Catholics living within a Latin diocesan territory). Even the Metropolitan of Kiev was considered to have less authority than the junior Latin bishops of Poland. Happily this mentallity is not sanctioned by Rome. Rome has said time and again that all particular churches are equal (yes, that means that even the tiny little Russian Catholic Church is equal in dignitiy to the Great Roman Catholic Church).

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

P.S. I suggest we move this thread to the Eastern Catholics forum.

 

[Petergee]

Actually, the Eastern Catholic Churches do not believe “just the same as any Latin Catholic.” While we do believe in the same essential dogmas, there is a huge difference between how we express the faith, both liturgically and theologically, and how Roman Catholics express the faith.

I was speaking only of beliefs, not of liturgical and theological expressions.All Catholics are required to believe all Catholic doctrines, e.g. as summarised in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There’s also the issue of papal infallibility and unversal supreme jurisdiction. I’ve heard Patriarch Gregorios III (head of the Melkite Greek Catholics) quoted as having said, “With all due respect to the pope, he’s no greater than any other patriarch.” For these words he’s never been censured.

Presumably, if this quote is accurate, it’s because you’ve taken him out of context. All Catholics belive the pope is no greater than any other patriarch or bishop in some respects.

This thread demonstrates the sad reality of **most Catholics’ **ignorance of Eastern Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox)… most Catholics are ignorant of the Orthodox

The OP is a Baptist who is honestly trying to learn through RCIA and through asking questions here and doesn’t deserve to be abused. Before arrogantly accusing millions of other men of ignorance I suggest you read carefully what you are responding to.

we have preserved the Apostolic Faith intact (yes, even among the Orthodox)

You know Catholics would say, “almost intact”.

Roman/Latin Catholics have a tendency to treat Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens. The dominant mentallity is, “Well if you want to be a ‘real’ Catholic, then you should be Roman.”

Historically perhaps, but I must say I have never personally experienced or observed any Latin Catholic with any trace of this attitude. In fact I know several brought up in the Latin rite who have transferred to Eastern rites because they consider that they are a better expression of the one Catholic faith. I know some brought up in Eastern Catholic Churches who choose to worship at a Latin-rite church beacuse they say it’s “more Australian” (which I find illogical).

You could just look at how the Polish treated the Ukrainian Greek Catholics throughout nearly the entire 19 - 20th Centuries. Ukrainian Greek Catholics were murdered by the Poles for “not being Catholic enough.” Ukrainian Catholic bishops were treated as inferior to the Latin bishops

Very bad behaviour, but I guess at the time the Ukrainian Catholics had their hands full with the infinitely worse treatment they were receiving from the Orthodox including those of the same language and liturgy as themselves.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I just tried to post a reply that was somewhat lengthy. My computer bummed out on me, so I guess that was the Holy Spirit giving me fair warning to hold my tongue.

To the OP. I apologize. I didn’t realize that you were a Baptist going through RCIA when I posted. Welcome to the Catholic Church! That being said I hope you’ll avail yourself of any opportunity to go and check out any of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It’ll give you an idea of just how rich the Catholic Tradition is. Studying Eastern Christian theology is also a great way to open oneself up to that richness. Since we’re on a “Traditional Catholics” forum, I’ll also suggest going to a Tridentine Mass some time. While they aren’t my preference, they are beautiful.

Petergee… Greetings and peace to you in the Lord. I had a lengthy response to much of what you said. Since my computer bummed out on me I’ll simply shorten my reply. Thank you for your call to deeper humility and please pray for me. That being said, I do stand behind my last post as it is supported by a great deal of work and research, including personal conversations with very prominent theologians in the Vatican, bishops, priests, etc. It is not pride to state the truth. If you like, I can give you a list of resources to check out at your own leisure and amusement (but it would require you to shell out some cash for some books). I’m fortunate enough that I have these sources at my fingertips since I work for a publishing company that specializes in this sort of stuff.

Peace

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

 

[ntisawesome]

Thanks Phillip!

To everyone, please forgive me I am so sorry, I got my terminology mixed up.

I meant Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Rite.

If Eastern Orthodox Christians are considered Catholics, while rejecting infallibility of the Pope based on being “close enough” (sorry for trivializing it that’s just how it comes across to me). Then kind of shoots down argument for the Catholic Church being the one true Church.

 

[ProVobis]

It is also a sad truth that Roman/Latin Catholics have a tendency to treat Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens.

Philip, I don’t dispute that at all. But you know the old adage about doing when in Rome. East is east, west is west, etc.

That’s not to say that we cannot be more appreciate of the Eastern Rites, which again I agree with you on. We could use a little more of that. In fact, when I find a Greek-speaking Mass, I will make an extra effort to attend there. Just not English.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hi ProVobis! Always nice to see you. Even among the Greek Orthodox you typically won’t find a Litrugy done strictly in Greek (unless you’re in Greece). Even then, I have a hunch that it’s probably done in modern Greek instead of Koine Greek. I could be wrong about that though. Still, I strongly encourage you to go. There’s a Greek Orthodox parish up the street from me that is simply amazing. I go from time to time because I have a friend who’s a parishoner there. It’s quite amazing to hear the Greek and English mixed in together. Even the English liturgies among the Byzantine Catholics (with the exception of the Ruthenians, whose bishops have all but destroyed their Liturgy) are quite beautiful. They don’t use the ICEL English

As far as Orthodox vs. Protestants goes, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Orthodox Churches are Apostolic Churches who have maintained the fullness of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic faith. The difference is that we are separated by schism (not heresy), whereas the Protestants are separated by heresy (heresies). I’m sure the issues are a lot more complex than that. There are books on the subject. You can pretty much look at any history of Christendom to see the issues. I hope this helps some. Keep in mind that when dealing with the Church any answer will usually raise more questions than answers.

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

P.S. If anyone is interested and lives in the Northern Virginia area, I have a pot of “Lenten Chili” (i.e. meatless) that I’d be willing to share in return for some good conversation!

 

[malphono]

Even among the Greek Orthodox you typically won’t find a Litrugy done strictly in Greek (unless you’re in Greece). Even then, I have a hunch that it’s probably done in modern Greek instead of Koine Greek. I could be wrong about that though.

You were probably right a few posts back when you said this thread should probably be moved. Anyway, just a word on the Greek: From what I understand, the GO do not use modern Greek. And of course the Antiochian Orthodox, (along with Melkites), both in and out of the US, are normally very stingy in their use of Greek.

 

[Formosus]

The Greek in the Liturgy of the GOC is most definitely not modern Greek. Rather it is far more similar to Koine and Classical Greek.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Thanks for the correction on which form of Greek is used! How does one go about moving a thread? Or is this one pretty much finished?

 

[ntisawesome]

From wikipedia

Some religious groups make a distinction[3] between heresy and schism. Heresy is rejection of a doctrine that a Church considered to be essential. Schism is a rejection of communion with the authorities of a Church, and this term has historically been applied to such a break when there was no dispute about doctrine.

So papal infallibility is not a doctrine then? I have been told that that is the significant difference between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Papal infallibility and supreme universal and immediate jurisdiction had not been defined at the time of the Schism between East and West. In fact, they were not defined for nearly another millenium. So there is no heresy involved. They’ve only become issues thanks to Pio Nono. I’ve read that what primarily separated us were disciplinary issues and political situations; theological issues were brought up later to justify the schism. It’s sad and it’s the greatest scandal within Christianity.

 

[Symeon]

Thanks Phillip!

To everyone, please forgive me I am so sorry, I got my terminology mixed up.

I meant Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Rite.

If Eastern Orthodox Christians are considered Catholics, while rejecting infallibility of the Pope based on being “close enough” (sorry for trivializing it that’s just how it comes across to me). Then kind of shoots down argument for the Catholic Church being the one true Church.

Eastern Orthodox are **not ** considered Catholics. What other posters were referring to were Eastern Catholic Churches - these are Orthodox Churches (with a couple exceptions) that at some point in history have returned to communion with Rome, while retaining their own Rites, spirituality, and theology.

To address your original question then, there is a difference in kind and not just degree between the Orthodox and any protestant group. The Orthodox Churches have apostolic succession, that is, valid bishops and priests, and all their sacraments are valid. Lutherans have no valid bishops/priests - and in fact don’t even believe in the concept of the priesthood, which means they also do not have a valid Eucharist…, etc…

 

[ntisawesome]

So then, Eastern Catholics are technically Roman Catholics?

 

[otjm]

So then, Eastern Catholics are technically Roman Catholics?

No. Technically, there is no such thing as Roman Catholics. There are Catholics of the Roman or Latin rite. But we have, thanks to the English and Henry the 8th, grown accustomed to referring to the rite as the Roman Catholic Church; it being controlled by Rome (and the Pope) while the Church of England was controlled by the King (and/or Queen). They moved significantly from their original positions within a few years and a monarchy or two, and lost apostolic succession through a change in the rite of ordination.

Eastern Catholics are technically Catholics, just as “Roman” Catholics are Catholics, Catholic meaning universal. There are numerous divisions and subdivisons, mostly on the eastern side of things, and there are (at least) two codes of Canon law. Some of us (me included) have mixed up rites with other issues/categories, so I will leave the the categories to others.

 

[Formosus]

No. Technically, there is no such thing as Roman Catholics. There are** Catholics of the Roman or Latin rite**. But we have, thanks to the English and Henry the 8th, grown accustomed to referring to the rite as the Roman Catholic Church; it being controlled by Rome (and the Pope) while the Church of England was controlled by the King (and/or Queen). They moved significantly from their original positions within a few years and a monarchy or two, and lost apostolic succession through a change in the rite of ordination.

There is no such thing as “Catholics of the Latin Rite.” There are though Catholics of the Latin or Roman Sui Iuris ritual church.

 

[diggerdomer]

Actually, the Eastern Catholic Churches do not believe “just the same as any Latin Catholic.” While we do believe in the same essential dogmas, there is a huge difference between how we express the faith, both liturgically and theologically, and how Roman Catholics express the faith. Just look at the debates that we’ve had on purgatory. There’s also the issue of papal infallibility and unversal supreme jurisdiction. I’ve heard Patriarch Gregorios III (head of the Melkite Greek Catholics) quoted as having said, “With all due respect to the pope, he’s no greater than any other patriarch.” For these words he’s never been censured.

This thread demonstrates the sad reality of most Catholics’ ignorance of Eastern Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox). We are very different from Protestants because we have apostolic succession, we have valid and licit Orders (yes, even among the Orthodox), we have preserved the Apostolic Faith intact (yes, even among the Orthodox), etc. It is the sad truth that most Catholics are ignorant of the Orthodox (just as it is the sad truth that most Orthodox are ignorant of authentic Catholic teaching). It is also a sad truth that Roman/Latin Catholics have a tendency to treat Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens. The dominant mentallity is, “Well if you want to be a ‘real’ Catholic, then you should be Roman.” You could just look at how the Polish treated the Ukrainian Greek Catholics throughout nearly the entire 19 - 20th Centuries. Ukrainian Greek Catholics were murdered by the Poles for “not being Catholic enough.” Ukrainian Catholic bishops were treated as inferior to the Latin bishops (many Latin bishops refused to allow Greek Catholic bishops to have any authority over the Greek Catholics living within a Latin diocesan territory). Even the Metropolitan of Kiev was considered to have less authority than the junior Latin bishops of Poland. Happily this mentallity is not sanctioned by Rome. Rome has said time and again that all particular churches are equal (yes, that means that even the tiny little Russian Catholic Church is equal in dignitiy to the Great Roman Catholic Church).

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

P.S. I suggest we move this thread to the Eastern Catholics forum.

No, Eastern Catholic are Catholic, just like Roman (or Latin) Catholics. We all view the Pope the same way.

 

[diggerdomer]

So then, Eastern Catholics are technically Roman Catholics?

No.

Eastern Catholics are Catholic, and so are Roman Catholics.