Eastern Rosary.

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The format of “various mysteries” is foreign to the Orthodox practice which would begin with the Trisagion prayers, 150 prayers to the Theokos, then the hymn “It is Truly Meet” or a suitable hymn to the Theotokos in its place. Discursive meditation is rejected in Orthodoxy as a dangerous practice which can lead to spiritual deception.

There are 103 rungs on the standard lestovka, and, indeed, this is what St. Seraphim himself employed in his hesychastic devotions (Yes, his primary devotions were centered in myriad Jesus Prayers) so the question that is begged is where the number of “150” comes from. Generally, Orthodox are assigned prayers roles in terms of “ropes,” generally 3 ropes to the Saviour and one to the Panaghia. In monastic practice, the standard rope is either a 100 knot (Russian) or 300 knot (Athonite). So there seems to be a bit unclear here. That being said, I have had a 150 knot prayer rope so I don’t doubt that they exist and have been used within Russian monasteries, but I do seriously doubt St. Seraphim used one.

Yes, in praying the “Angelic Salutation” an edifying experience diffinitely takes place, but the point of such a discipline is to focus ones mental faculty (nous) and heart on prayer and to dispel and purify ones thoughts and hearts. G,enerally inclusion of prayers between “decades” tends to disrupt from this approach and turns it into a devotion, yes, but not, necessarily a hesychastic discipline. It is good to follow reading of the Psalter with Lectio Divina and prayers of the Angelic Salutation, beginning the entire devotion with 3 ropes of the Jesus Prayer. But, honestly, each part of such a rule should be sovereign and non interrupted. Focus of mind in heart to achieve pure prayer is what the aim is. So that prayer of the heart and noetic prayer can occur, can be received as a gift from the Holy Spirit.

Generally, what this rule here is trying to accomplish with the interruptions is probably best achieved with recitations of Akathists to the Panaghia. I would suggest 1 or maybe 3.
 
Dear Hetmane,

Actually, you are wrong insofar as St Seraphim of Sarov and his followers (and many Russian Orthodox) are concerned.

St Seraphim (and the Edinoveriye New Hieromartyr St Seraphim Zvezdinsky) did indeed divide the Rule of the Theotokos into 15 “mysteries” or events in the life of the Mother of God (which is also noted in the Encyclopedia of Orthodox, Moscow, 2003).

Zvezdinsky also had special prayers he said before each mystery before he prayed the Our Father and ten Hail Mary’s.

The Orthodox Encyclopedia outlines the mysteries and includes a Troparion for each event (e.g. that of the Resurrection, Ascension, Annunciation etc.).

This is a private practice that has been around Russian Orthodox monasteries for a long time. One may also read about it in “Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint” chapter six. St Seraphim was said to have put this rule of prayer ahead of all others (including canons and akathists) to secure the intercession and protection of the All-Holy Theotokos over our lives (he said She told this to him Herself).

Alex
 
I’ve had the opportunity to say the rosary with Eastern Catholics on a few occasions, and I found it to be a wonderful unifying experience.
 
Seamus_L said:
I’ve had the opportunity to say the rosary with Eastern Catholics on a few occasions, and I found it to be a wonderful unifying experience.
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To bead or not to bead - there really should be no question!
 
St. Seraphim’s “followers” were all the Russian Orthodox peoples. He wasn’t involved in any movements, but in sanctity.

No, he was a member of the Nikonian church and observed the Nikonian rite, not a Jedinoverets. He used a lestovka because such was part of the native piety of his boyhood home. Sarov was a Nikonian rite monastery.

A lestovka has only 103 wrungs which makes a prayer of 150 knots improbable.

Generally, troparia are not recited between prayers involving a prayer rope.

St. Seraphim’s writings on the Jesus Prayer and spirituality clearly establish him as being a hesychast. While there were and are accompanying devotions used by Russian hesychasts, their primary emphasis is the Jesus Prayer and that practice and the Eastern use of prayer ropes is a separate discipline from the one being indicated.

What I underscored is that the interruptions are uncharacteristic and not particularly suited to the point of using a prayer rope as a devotional tool. They are not. Nor would Russian prayer rules reflect Dominican spirituality.
 
Hetman Vygovsky said:
St. Seraphim’s “followers” were all the Russian Orthodox peoples. He wasn’t involved in any movements, but in sanctity.

No, he was a member of the Nikonian church and observed the Nikonian rite, not a Jedinoverets. He used a lestovka because such was part of the native piety of his boyhood home. Sarov was a Nikonian rite monastery.

A lestovka has only 103 wrungs which makes a prayer of 150 knots improbable.

Generally, troparia are not recited between prayers involving a prayer rope.

St. Seraphim’s writings on the Jesus Prayer and spirituality clearly establish him as being a hesychast. While there were and are accompanying devotions used by Russian hesychasts, their primary emphasis is the Jesus Prayer and that practice and the Eastern use of prayer ropes is a separate discipline from the one being indicated

What I underscored is that the interruptions are uncharacteristic and not particularly suited to the point of using a prayer rope as a devotional tool. They are not. Nor would Russian prayer rules reflect Dominican spirituality.
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Dear Hetmane,

St Seraphim did have specific people who followed his teachings (you are right that he inspnired all of Rus’ and many beyond). I am thinking especially of St Alexandra and others of Diveyevo who followed a special Rule of LIfe that St Seraphim gave them.

My reference to the second St Seraphim was to St Seraphim ZVEZDINSKY who was indeed a convert from the Old Believers and who said the rule of the Theotokos daily with the “mysteries.” The books I mentioned will verify this.

The Old Believers have TWO types of Lestovka - the regular one and also what they call a “Bogarodychnaya” Lestovka which has 150 small “babotchki” divided every ten with a larger “babotchka.” I have both kinds which I bought from Russia, although the former type is the one that Old Believers take to church with them on their left arm, as you know.

St Seraphim of Sarov had a “Bogarodychnaya” lestovka as well and this is actually on display with his other effects. It is divided into groups of ten as described above.

There are also prayer ropes, usually referred to as being of the “Russian type,” with knots divided every ten rather than every 25 (the Greek style).

As for the troparia - I’ve only reported what is in the Russian Orthodox Encyclopedia, published in Moscow in 2003 (I have a copy). This is also repeated verbatim in the English language Staretz Zechariah in chapter six. Articles on St Seraphim Zvezdinsky also mention his prayers before each group of ten “Bogaroditse Divo” headed with an Our Father.

St Seraphim of Sarov promoted four known prayer rules (there may have been others for sure). Among them was the “Bogarodychne Pravilo” of 150 Hail Mary’s divided into tens, headed with an Our Father. In the Orthodox Encyclopedia, they quote St Seraphim as saying this form of prayer was revealed to an Orthodox monastic in the 8th century in the Thebaid, a full 400 years before the Dominican event. And that this Pravilo was very dear to the Most Holy Bogaroditsa.

Don’t shoot the messenger!

Alex
 
Again, no where is there any justification for troparia and it is not common to hesychastic practice.

The “Bogorodichnaya” is not greeted in most of the literature on St. Seraphim of Sarov. Thus, this, along with the rest of your presentation is dubious at best, especially since you are neither a practitioner, nor formed in this tradition, nor do you seem to respect the material at hand, except to agendize it.

Spiritual children are not “followers.” How absurd and alien to Russian spirituality. There is no political movement here.

No, truthfully, different types of chotki are used with different divisions depending on individual rules and there is no set “Greek” or “Russian” divisions. Preposterous.

Jedinoverije is not being discussed here. St. Seraphim was not a Jedinoverets. So its personages are not cognates.

Again, your decontextualizations of the Russian Orthodox encyclopedia are at best what you make of practices which are not a living part of your faith tradition, but are of mine. I was formed in this Tradition and am a practitioner, formed by both Athonite and Russian living links to this spirituality and holiness, some descended from the spiritual legacy of St. Seraphim.

Thank you, but you aren’t a “messenger” but a character from THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY divinizing a Coke bottle. We Russian Orthodox know our Faith Tradition and we don’t need you to read our books back to us, which he have published for you.
 
Well, Hetmane, I’ve given you the sources for you to examine, quite independently of your accusations of “agendizing” and the like.

The term “spiritual children” is used in the English translations, again this did not come from me. And you have obviously never heard of St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, the Holy Russian New Hieromartyr shot by the Bolsheviks in 1937.

Perhaps I am what you say I am. I try to follow the Orthodox spirituality, although I do accept the Pope of Rome as the visible Head of the Church. I have practiced the Jesus Prayer for 40 years now. Yes, I am not an Orthodox Christian, but I ask God to forgive me for this.

I am not reading anything back to you. Please entertain a semblance of Christian charity here!

I am simply presenting you with the sources I have read. If you read them and say they say things that are different to how I understand them, I believe I can be humble enough to admit my error.

And the styling of chotki into “Russian” and “Greek” comes from a Serbian Orthodox monastery that makes the chotki and from other places I have ordered Chotki from (who ask me, “Do you want them in the Russian style, divided every ten?”)

Again, I present you with the sources and stand back.

You tell me what those sources say and mean. I have also met MANY Orthodox Christians who have never even heard of the Jesus Prayer, Hesychasm and the like. Hopefully, you are not against me informing them about these through the sharing of Orthodox Christian literature with them. I have also brought several back into the Orthodox Church, Uniate Reprobate that I am, and have been publicly thanked by one of your Bishops for so doing.

Alex
 
Alex, you are an inspiration and a wonderful example of Christian charity and brotherly love. 👍

Out of curiosity, have you been to Sarov and seen St. Seraphim’s lestovka? If so, I’m so jealous! I’ve only seen photographs, but would love to see the real thing.

As to whether or not Eastern Catholics, or even Roman for that matter, have any sort of “right” to tell Orthodox Christians about Orthodox spirituality and practice, I would ask why not. I’ve rarely encountered an Orthodox Christian who hasn’t hesitated to tell me what Roman or Eastern Catholics believe and practice, what are the characteristics of their prospective theologies, where they are wrong, etc. Sometimes they are correct, others they are not. One way or the other we should all be humble enough to accept the truth when it is told to us, no matter who is telling us. Orthodox bishops and Patriarchs have often said of certain Eastern Catholic scholars, bishops, Patriarchs, etc. “You are one of our own,” and “You have spoken for us,” and “You are a true spiritual father.” Likewise many Roman Catholic theologians have turned to Orthodox sources to enrich their understanding of prayer, the Eucharist, the Trinity, etc. If we cannot learn from one another and enrich one another, listen to one another, enrich one another, and ultimately love one another, then Christ’s mission to the world will have failed because of our own lack of brotherly love. How can we expect to witness to a fallen world when we are so busy fighting amongst ourselves over how many knots a rope should have, what prayers should be said, whether a “secret meditation” (cf. Art of Prayer, pg. 75) should be interrupted by various other prayers, etc.?😦
 
Dear Brother in Christ Phillip,

I’ve seen photos of St Seraphim’s Lestovka taken by clergy and also I’ve had a student in my religion class who saw it and she showed me the photo she had. I could see that the Lestovka on display was divided into tens. The Old Believers have both kinds.

I think I can understand the reticence of certain Orthodox about any devotion resembling a Catholic one. The Old Believers, for example, refuse to serve the Passia service since they think it is taken directly from the Catholic books of devotion (and it is not, there is no service resembling it in the West and St Peter Mohyla created it as a service honouring the Passion of our Lord only). The Old Believers likewise refuse to accept any other Akathist than that to the Mother of God.

And I don’t deny that I can make many mistakes when studying Eastern spirituality - or Western for that matter.

But I do read Russian and a “rosary by any other name . . .” 🙂

God bless you, Chosen Beadsman of the Lord!

Alex
 
“If we cannot learn from one another and enrich one another, listen to one another, enrich one another, and ultimately love one another, then Christ’s mission to the world will have failed because of our own lack of brotherly love.”

How true…
 
Bless you too, sir!

Is that your own quote? It is excellent!

Alex
 
Brother Alex,

You have forgotten more than I know regarding Eastern spirituality 😉
 
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