Eastern Saints through Roman eyes

[EvanISOT]

Dear All,

I’ve been curious about this for some time, because for me personally, it plays a big role in deciding between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Take two big Saints: St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Gregory Palamas, the former venerated by Catholicism, the latter by Orthodoxy; neither accepting the other. Both, I believe, were responsible for miracles and/or had mystical experiences that vouched for their Sainthood during the process of canonization.

Just to hit it from the Catholic side: how do Catholics account for the Sainthood of such a one on the Eastern front? How do they explain the miracles and sanctity? Do they believe the sanctity was a sham, and the miracles demonic in nature, or even fabricated. Would they be obliged to feel so about all Eastern Saints’ miracles and sanctity? And if not, how could they possibly deny that these individuals were Saints?

Thanks and regards,
Evan

 

[MarcusAndreas]

St. Gregory Palamas is actually liturgically venerated in some Byzantine Catholic churches.

 

[EvanISOT]

Hi Marcus,

I appreciate that, but it’s not helpful. Do Roman Catholics under Pope Benedict XVI venerate St. Gregory Palamas? I don’t care what rite they practice, we’re talking about “catholic” (universal) stuff here, not “A smidge of Catholics dig St. Gregory, and a smidge don’t”

 

[hazcompat]

I’m roman catholic. read the writings of the Eastern Saints. The Holy Spirit is plainly visible if you have eyes to see. I especially like Saint Saraphim of Sarov.

peace

 

[MarcusAndreas]

Hi Marcus,

I appreciate that, but it’s not helpful. Do Roman Catholics under Pope Benedict XVI venerate St. Gregory Palamas? I don’t care what rite they practice, we’re talking about “catholic” (universal) stuff here, not “A smidge of Catholics dig St. Gregory, and a smidge don’t”

I get a Roman Catholic devotional magazine called Magnificat published by Dominican friars and they had a writing of his on Mary published in a recent issue, and called him Saint.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Marcus,

I appreciate that, but it’s not helpful. Do Roman Catholics under Pope Benedict XVI venerate St. Gregory Palamas? I don’t care what rite they practice, we’re talking about “catholic” (universal) stuff here, not “A smidge of Catholics dig St. Gregory, and a smidge don’t”

Why is it not helpful?

Catholics under the Pope venerate St Gregory Palamas. He is on the calendar.

I realize that most Catholics (and inquirers) are not taught this, but I think you probably know that in the first millennium (when Catholics and Orthodox were ‘as one’ ) there was no universal calendar of saints, each diocese or synod kept it’s own calendar. This is a reflection of the earlier ecclesiology of the church west as well as east.

That does not mean that a person could be a saint in one place but not another, it just means they are not commemorated (remembered) in liturgies everywhere. After all, there are only 365 days and there are probably tens of thousands of known saints, That means there is a lot of overlapping and there may not be enough time to mention all of them for a given day.

I am not certain of the date, but I think the Roman calendar became the universal calendar for the western church only in the early thirteenth century (or perhaps late 12th), and there are still saints on local diocesan calendars in western Europe that are not on the Roman calendar. So the idea that some saints are not universally venerated is not strange to the Roman Catholic church (nor for that matter the Orthodox church). Venerating a little-known saint remains a personal (private) option, although there may not be a commemoration in the liturgy in every particular area. The fact that Saint Gregory Palamas is commemorated anywhere on an official Catholic Calendar (I believe he is actually on several) means he is a Saint of the Catholic church under the Pope.

 

[Tyuiop411]

In my understanding the Church simply does not concern itself with the post-schism Orthodox Saints. Similarly, I don’t think the Orthodox concern themselves with post-schism Catholic Saints.

 

[Vouthon]

Saint Gregory Palamas and Saint Seraphim of Sarov are both recognized as saints in the Catholic Church St. Sergius of Rodenezh is also in the Martyrologium Romanus of the Latin Church, even though he was not in communion with Rome - so he is also explicitly recognised.

Gregory Palamas is in the liturgical calendar so I need not elaborate on him, as for Seraphim of Sarov. Here he is on Catholic Online’s, “Saints and Angels”:

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2494

Cardinal Walter Kaspar visited Russia a few years back and venerated the relics of St. Seraphim of Sarov (a Russian Orthodox saint of the 18th century).

Finally, Pope John Paul II referred to him as a saint in his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

“*Man achieves the fullness of prayer not when he expresses himself, but he lets God be most fully present in prayer. The history of mystical prayer in the East and West attests to this: Saint Francis, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross, Saint Ignatius of Loyola and, in the East, **Saint Serafim of Sarov *and many others.” (page 18)

However, it must be said that since the Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a fully valid Church it actually recognizes ALL Orthodox saints as being saints, even if not explicitly stated or liturgically venerated like the two saints above. The main reason for this is that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to be seen “stealing” Orthodox saints, until such a time as the divide between us is completely or near completely healed.

But Catholics can be rest assured that every Orthodox saint is a saint.

I particularly like Saint Theodora, the Byzantine Empress. She lived a most fascinating life. Read about her here: orthodoxwiki.org/Theodora_(wife_of_Justinian

 

[hazcompat]

peace

 

[Volkov]

However, it must be said that since the Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a fully valid Church it actually recognizes ALL Orthodox saints as being saints, even if not explicitly stated or liturgically venerated like the two saints above. The main reason for this is that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to be seen “stealing” Orthodox saints, until such a time as the divide between us is completely or near completely healed.

But Catholics can be rest assured that every Orthodox saint is a saint.

Hello, I am new to CAF and have come here to learn more about Catholicism (no intention of converting, just want to know more).

This is an extremely interesting thread. I know Orthodox Christians who hold certain Catholic saints in great regard (myself included), but I’d be pretty astonished if the above were true for the Catholic Church (meaning the part about “rest assured that every Orthodox saint is a [Catholic] saint.”) The reason I say this is that there are Orthodox (post-Schism) saints who are regarded as “Defenders of Orthodoxy,” which at times means specifically against Catholic doctrine or political incursions.

I don’t want to derail this discussion–both sides have historically sinned against each other, but I did want to point out that the blanket statement above seemed, well, too blanket.

 

[Ghosty]

However, it must be said that since the Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a fully valid Church it actually recognizes ALL Orthodox saints as being saints, even if not explicitly stated or liturgically venerated like the two saints above. The main reason for this is that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to be seen “stealing” Orthodox saints, until such a time as the divide between us is completely or near completely healed.

But Catholics can be rest assured that every Orthodox saint is a saint.

Hello, I am new to CAF and have come here to learn more about Catholicism (no intention of converting, just want to know more).

This is an extremely interesting thread. I know Orthodox Christians who hold certain Catholic saints in great regard (myself included), but I’d be pretty astonished if the above were true for the Catholic Church (meaning the part about “rest assured that every Orthodox saint is a [Catholic] saint.”) The reason I say this is that there are Orthodox (post-Schism) saints who are regarded as “Defenders of Orthodoxy,” which at times means specifically against Catholic doctrine or political incursions.

I don’t want to derail this discussion–both sides have historically sinned against each other, but I did want to point out that the blanket statement above seemed, well, too blanket.

I can’t verify that every Eastern Orthodox Saint is also a Catholic Saint (though most of them are, I believe, at least those a century or more old), but I will say that your objection also applies to St. Cyprian of Carthage who is regarded as a Catholic Saint.

Peace and God bless!

 

[ConstantineTG]

However, it must be said that since the Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a fully valid Church it actually recognizes ALL Orthodox saints as being saints, even if not explicitly stated or liturgically venerated like the two saints above.

Ever heard of St. Mark of Ephesus?

 

[Rawb]

However, it must be said that since the Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Church as a fully valid Church it actually recognizes ALL Orthodox saints as being saints, even if not explicitly stated or liturgically venerated like the two saints above. The main reason for this is that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to be seen “stealing” Orthodox saints, until such a time as the divide between us is completely or near completely healed.

I would be quite surprised if Roman Catholics venerated St. Peter the Aleut, who was tortured to death by Franciscans in California for being a “schismatic”, or St. Anthony the Roman, who was miraculously taken to Novgorod in 1067 after his monastic community was disbanded by the Bishop of Rome because they wouldn’t consent to the new Roman stance on authority, or St. Macarius the Roman, who’s studies of Scripture and the Fathers during the Renaissance in Rome led him to move his family to Russia to pursue Holy Orthodoxy, or St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre who led his 361 Eastern Catholic parishoners into Orthodoxy when the Latin Bishop in America refused to recognize him as a Catholic priest in 1891, or…

 

[Formosus]

Ever heard of St. Mark of Ephesus?

I see nothing wrong with venerating St. mark of ephesus . If chaldean Catholics and oriental Catholics get sts. Discorsos(sp?) and Nestorios, then Mark should be fair game for Catholic veneration.

As for st. Seraphim of sarov, he is actually on the UGCC’s calendar.

Rawb, I can only speak for myself but I would have no issue venerating any of those saints, especially, st. Alexis.

 

[MrPip]

I would be quite surprised if Roman Catholics venerated St. Peter the Aleut, who was tortured to death by Franciscans in California for being a “schismatic”, or St. Anthony the Roman, who was miraculously taken to Novgorod in 1067 after his monastic community was disbanded by the Bishop of Rome because they wouldn’t consent to the new Roman stance on authority, or St. Macarius the Roman, who’s studies of Scripture and the Fathers during the Renaissance in Rome led him to move his family to Russia to pursue Holy Orthodoxy, or St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre who led his 361 Eastern Catholic parishoners into Orthodoxy when the Latin Bishop in America refused to recognize him as a Catholic priest in 1891, or…

There are some Orthodox who claim the St. Peter the Aleut didn’t actually exist. See this: frontierorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/rebooted-why-i-currently-do-not-accept-the-martyrdom-account-for-peter-the-aleut/

Personally I don’t have enough knowledge to form an opinion about it one way or another.

Whatever the case, I’ve always been taught, by Catholic and Orthodox alike, that a saint is a saint. It is God who makes them such, whether or not they are venerated by us.

Blessings,
Jeff

 

[ConstantineTG]

I see nothing wrong with venerating St. mark of ephesus . If chaldean Catholics and oriental Catholics get sts. Discorsos(sp?) and Nestorios, then Mark should be fair game for Catholic veneration.

As for st. Seraphim of sarov, he is actually on the UGCC’s calendar.

Rawb, I can only speak for myself but I would have no issue venerating any of those saints, especially, st. Alexis.

Its one thing for a Catholic to make a personal devotion to an Orthodox saint, its another to actually approve it. I’ve read a little bit of St. Mark’s writings (or should I say challenges) about Purgatory and I do like the little that I have read. I know he’s been very critical of the Roman Catholic beliefs with regards to that, but love how he defends and presents the Orthodox faith.

From what I know the Vatican won’t allow St. Mark of Ephesus to be on any Liturgical Calendar of Eastern Catholic Churches. I could be wrong.